Challenge The Yankees Reissue

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Challenge The Yankees Reissue

jballgameca
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jballgameca
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16 Oct 2017, 02:41 #1

Sorry if I may have missed it but has there been any mention on the forum 
of the planned reissue of CTY? 
If not, here's the link to the Indiegogo fundraiser page with a lot of info and 
purchase/donation options.



John
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BaseballGamesBKW
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16 Oct 2017, 18:07 #2

Hi John, thanks for your post -- full marks to you for raising the subject!  
We were slightly appalled to read about this at Net54 earlier last week -- 
here's that thread:  http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=245855  

As you can see, we've already chimed in briefly over there, and we were 
just about to relay the news here at somewhat greater length (with the 
topic title "Your Challenge the Yankees game is now worthless"), but for now 
we'll let initial word on this developing story stand by itself and hope that 
you and other members will bring your opinions to the table.  

The Net54 thread includes some very disturbing responses from Mike Sokolow, 
grandson of "CTY" creator Roger Franklin and one of the Franklin family members 
behind the reissue of the game.  There's also a "company" page for the repro 
"CTY" here:  https://www.challengetheyankees.co/  

Sokolow's announcement came just minutes before we were wrapping up 
a new article for our main site [ http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/BbArticles.htm ] 
about reprints, reproductions, fakes, fraud, and fantasy pieces.  Because the 
planned reissue of "CTY" obviously fits right in there, we've held off on putting 
that article on-line pending some more definitive and positive word from Sokolow, 
but that may be months in the offing, or never, so look for our new article 
later this week.  

Fellers?  Thoughts?  
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jballgameca
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16 Oct 2017, 21:36 #3

Hi Butch,
Being the naive innocent that I am, I never even thought of the potential residual effects 
of a new release of CTY without any markings to indicate that it is indeed a 2018 reissue. 
While I did consider the potential for a slight decrease in the value of the original, reissues 
of any collectible rarely do have that sort of an effect. After reading through the Net54 thread 
I sent Michael a private message to reiterate the concerns voiced by yourself and the other 
commenters there.

John
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BaseballGamesBKW
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17 Oct 2017, 21:07 #4

Hey John, full marks to ya for taking action on the ill-conceived notion of an 
undated reissue of CTY.  Since they're running that crowdfunding operation 
with an eye to producing a fairly large-scale run of the repro games, they'll 
presumably (hopefully) wait until they're near their fundraising goal before 
anything actually goes off to the printer -- and that should give them time to 
(again, hopefully) change their minds about making the repro indistinguishable 
from the original.  

It seems to us that there would be two probable outcomes of producing an 
identical reprint, both of those outcomes unfortunate and ugly -- for collectors 
who already have a vintage example (we know that includes you, and boy, 
did you ever do well on your price), the market value of their games will plummet, 
as savvy collectors looking to obtain the vintage game will suspect originals being 
sold or auctioned may be reprints...  while novice collectors will become the prey 
of unscrupulous vendors, who'll be selling the easily affordable reprint games 
as exorbitantly expensive original editions.  

Let's hope that Net54 thread's mostly negative reactions to the make-it-identical idea 
are indicative of the sentiments of any additional messages sent privately to Sokolow, 
and that he'll be convinced it's a thunderingly bad idea.  It'd be terrific if a few more 
collectors and hobbyists on board here would follow your lead, John, and post to 
the Net54 thread or write Sokolow directly...  
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stone193
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stone193
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21 Oct 2017, 19:01 #5

This makes no sense to me at all.
Reproducing the game with "Reprint" on everything will have no impact on production cost.

I can't help but see a nefarious intention here?
If you "remanufacture" the game sans any disclaimer? You're sure to sell more copies.

Thanx for having my back in allowing me to have a copy regardless of how it affects the game collectors. [sarcasm]
Here's my response.
It's curt, bordering on offensive.  

Too bad.
Mike
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stone193
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21 Oct 2017, 22:28 #6

After my reply over at net54, I got a pm from Leon.
It seems my remarks were "serious" enough to require that I "reveal" my entire name.

I contacted back and complied.  I also told Leon that I rarely respond that way to something 
but the rationale is weak and the impact/effect on "game collectors" is obvious.  
And, I was trying to [re] flush them out.   He agreed.

If someone hasn't read their "rationale" for how they were reproducing the game?  
Very interesting.

I still think they may have collectively thought this out and figured that they would sell 
way more product if copied exactly with no disclaimer.   This is not 1964 - why make something 
that will confuse, bring out the sharks and charlatans and make it easy to scam.

Net effect?  A newbie is "fooled" - finds out they paid 100 bucks for a 19.95 game?  
Newbie leaves the hobby - totally jaded. 
Mike
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BaseballGamesBKW
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23 Oct 2017, 17:28 #7

Hey, Mike -- wow, if the mere suggestion that Sokolow's evasions might look 
a little fishy is "offensive" or "seriously" controversial, it's good we've been 
as circumspect as we've been at Net54 or else heads might explode there.  
Anyway, good on ya for chiming in on that topic (again, for anyone just now 
joining this thread, it's http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=245855 ).  
The more voices raised in objection to the current reprint plan, the better.  

We've actually more to say about it, and we'd hoped to have that on-line in a 
new article at our main site last week, but as usual, we're running late.  Sparked 
by that ridiculous "Babe Ruth dexterity game" that recently sold on eBay (and 
that's discussed in the "More from the Babe Ruth Fake factory" thread a little bit 
farther down this Forum's index page), we've put together an article on reprints, 
reproductions, fakes, and fantasy pieces in the games hobby -- including, as a 
late addition, a few words about the ongoing CTY debacle.  It's done, but for 
a little special-effects feature we're assembling for the article's conclusion, and 
that's all that's holding it up.  Hopefully, this week...   

In the meantime, what we'll say here is that what was genuinely offensive in 
the Net54 thread was Sokolow's capricious, tone-deaf recommendation that 
owners of original CTY editions worrying that their expensive originals will be 
mistaken for the reprint version should, la la la, just submit all their CTY cards 
to PSA or some other TPG for authentication and plastic entombment.  Because, 
feh, that'd cost only another, what, $400., $600. or something, and also make 
the game virtually unplayable.  Yeah, good idea, thanks for the tip...   
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stone193
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23 Oct 2017, 21:11 #8

That being said, we're hesitant to make the differences between the editions obvious to the average Joe.

So as a trader, you may find that there will be more demand for original cards and full games, which in turn
means higher profits for you.

Many Yankees fans and players of games like APBA and Strat-o-matic had never heard of CTY, but are now
intrigued by it. So as a trader, you may find that there will be more demand for original cards and full games,
which in turn means higher profits for you.
My response - if I were inclined to do so - which is against my better nature is to say:  
"Don't piss on my boots and tell me it's raining"

The quoted response was sophomoric and misleading. 
If this:  (reprint) were placed on every item in the set - IMO it would do nothing to diminish 
the original spirit of the game and not offend the visual senses of even the most discriminating of tastes.

As said in my response at net54, IMO this is being done this way to create optimal sales 
at the expense of those who already own the game.  

After all, if I don't have a copy of the original game in hand?  How will I really be able to tell 
if the cards are originals or reprints?  Sending them to PSA is costly.
And it would take no effort at all for someone to "handle" the set for a bit to pass it off as original?

I don't own the set - would like to - and would buy a reprint if marked as such for a double sawbuck or so. 
Mike
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BaseballGamesBKW
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24 Oct 2017, 17:56 #9

Spot on, Mike.  The BS from Sokolow is really offputting, and we can maybe 
hold out some little bit of hope that, if they decline to mark the cards and box 
as reprints, the arrogant attitude he's displayed at Net54 will actually suppress 
sales of the new edition.  

If previous (and maybe still current, but we're not going to read their whole website 
again) claims they've made are true -- that Franklin reacquired all production and 
distribution rights to the game when Hasbro relinquished same -- then Sokolow's 
remark that "there are legal limitations on our ability to amend the original game 
while still using licensed material (including player likenesses and team logos)" 
is disingenuous (and in the words of Perry Mason and Hamilton Burger, "irrelevant, 
immaterial, and incompetent").  The licensed material would include only the player 
likenesses and team logos, and no one's asking that those be changed.  

In fact, they wouldn't even have to use the word "reprint" on any of the components 
-- any little distinguishing mark, situated in any obscure corner, would suffice to signal 
the reissue was not a 1964-65 game.  "2018," in 6-point type, would do the trick.  An 
eighth-of-an-inch-high image of a baseball or little bitty star or something would do.  
And of course his suggestions that one need only submit all the game cards to a TPG 
for authentication and encapsulization (what about the box and charts?), or to have 
both editions of the game in hand in order to compare original to reprint, displays 
"let them eat cake" arrogance and obliviousness.  

On-line scammers -- and those are the guys who'll be boosting sales of an undated 
re-release -- must be salivating and rubbing their hands together in glee...   
 
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stone193
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24 Oct 2017, 18:12 #10

Totally agree with your remarks guys.

So as a trader, you may find that there will be more demand for original cards and full games,
which in turn means higher profits for you.
This is one of my favorites in the lot. 
Mike
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jballgameca
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09 Nov 2017, 20:51 #11

It looks like the reissue is dead. Only 31% of the funding goal was achieved 
and I read that someone has received a refund of his payment.

I have mixed feelings about this project failing. On one hand we have the negatives 
discussed here and on Net54 but on the other hand it was a great opportunity for 
interested parties to acquire a reproduction of this classic game. I know I would have 
jumped all over it, like I did with the Strat-O-Matic Founders Edition, if I didn't have an original.

John
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stone193
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10 Nov 2017, 21:56 #12

Totally with you John - as long as they had marked all the parts "reprint" - 
I would've picked one up if in the 20 to 30 buck range.
Mike
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BaseballGamesBKW
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10 Nov 2017, 22:59 #13

John, thanks very much for the update!  Disappointing news on one hand, 
but on the other, more like relief and an appropriate and satisfying end 
to the episode.  

Mike, if we understood the gist of the projected pricing amid the multitude 
of subscription plans on their website, we think they were planning on 
making it a $40.-$50. game.  

Maybe our take on Sokolow's statements, as those were relayed to Net54 
readers, has us putting too much weight on those comments as a factor -- 
but if you ask us, we think the arrogant, contemptuous, dismissive, let-them-
eat-cake attitude that seeped through everything he was quoted as saying 
over there was the major element that killed the project.  Again, just our 
impression, but he seemed to show a complete misunderstanding of the 
very collector group to which he was ostensibly trying to market the game, 
and that "just have your original cards slabbed" wave of his hand was deeply 
off-putting, certainly to us and even to the wealthy collectors at Net54 who 
could probably afford that very substantial expense.  The whole thing came 
off not as a labor of love for gamers and collectors or a tribute to grandad 
game designer Franklin, but instead as a cheezy "who cares who gets hurt" 
money-grab.  

Maybe a far better-thought-out plan for a repro edition, and an infinitely 
better marketing approach, could see it tried again with better success 
in another year or three...  
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stone193
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10 Nov 2017, 23:25 #14

Thanx guys - forgot to check the price range again.
I would've been comfortable with 40 to 50 considering the cost of 
things today - printing and all that...

The reference to "gamers" and "collectors" has got me to thinking 
about the current state of the hobby in general. 
Don't want to hijack this thread - so I'm going to create a new one 
for discussion. 
Mike
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jballgameca
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24 Dec 2017, 06:59 #15

Hey fellas, as you probably know, the reissue of CTY is alive again on Indiegogo.
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BaseballGamesBKW
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29 Dec 2017, 19:05 #16

Hey there, John, thanks for the update!  Unless we're following 
the wrong link, though, the CTY "company page" is still directing us 
to the Indiegogo page that shows contributions "closed," the total 
still stalled at the same 31% of their "fixed goal" it was at six weeks 
ago.  (Yay!)  If you've got some information that, um, challenges 
that status report, give us the details...  
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jballgameca
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01 Jan 2018, 07:58 #17

Here's the link to the new page:



Happy New Year!
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BaseballGamesBKW
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02 Jan 2018, 22:13 #18

Huh!  Hi, John, thanks for the link.  Where'd you find that?  
'Cuz the CTY company/home page still links (twice! -- and 
prominently) to their previous (now closed) crowdfunding effort...  
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jballgameca
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03 Jan 2018, 01:28 #19

I received an update email from them that included the link to the new page.
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bamco-star
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05 Jan 2018, 04:13 #20

I have also considered. Reprinting a game, I would only print versions, one at a time. I am always adding new stats
from games played ( and from others ) If I should acquire a different version than i have , I would add some of the cards "obviously"
If for some reason, the cards, that I am using are too good or too bad, than I may insert a change on later printings.
I also know, this reprint  will devalue my own original versions, that could be 1 of a kind. However, the cost would easily be around
150 for 5 teams of 27 players each.  I would also give a huge discount for other orders, If supplied with usable statistics, to be
used in later reprints. I have not used an original card since the 90's. The game I am talking about is of course
BE A MANAGER, I still need most of the 68 (67stats version) they were 4x5 1/2 thin cardboard. I also added HOF card
of Sandy Koufax. Testing the Lajoie card for a Rod Carew replacement. the HOF card for Mantle was too high of a batting AVG.
Most HOF pitchers, are overrated for the normal game. Most batters are over .340 lifetime hitters. All reprints are on 4x6 thin
perforated cardboard sheets of 4.  Any opinions can't hurt !!!!    
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