Archive - Yahoo forum posts, 2009 March 8 - 31

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Archive - Yahoo forum posts, 2009 March 8 - 31

BaseballGamesBKW
Site Admin
Joined: October 25th, 2013, 6:10 am

November 14th, 2014, 3:58 pm #1

BASEBALLGAMES FORUM 2009 March 8 - 31, Messages 5141 - 5215
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Message #5141
Sun Mar 8, 2009 6:13 am
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Baseballgames update, 3-07-09
Hiya fellers! Hey, where'd February go? Seems to us like we just posted one of these a few days ago, but
here it is time again already for another edition of the monthly website update -- actually past time, as usual.
We have to start with an apology -- the new feature we promised you last month still isn't ready. We haven't yet
gotten past that informational roadblock we told you we'd encountered, and we do want to have the thing
as complete and accurate as possible. Be patient, we're optimistic we'll hear back from our source soon.

No further delay, however, in acknowledging the new members of the group who joined up in the previous month
-- let's all say hello and extend the customary welcome to our February enrollees: hyscore57, shohliaynadeem,
jwisenberg, rogerrbd691, mzjr66, shinkansen017, dogpoundal62, funkmob89, knorrgerald, waltmac71, pumvee,
edslounello, cpfroghorn, fjr70, humaira.rameez, timmyhop65, and nojsnikpoh2003. Glad to see all of you on board!
If you haven't yet done so, please do familiarize yourselves with our Forum Policy before you post
[ http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/ForumPolicy.htm ]
-- then take some time to peruse the searchable Message archives, Files, Links, and Photo albums, and of course
our home site and the features there [ http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/ ].
Stick around, say hi, let us know how you found us (seriously!), and don't hesitate to pipe up with whatever
questions, comments, or news that you might have!

One technical note in that regard -- the "search" feature in the Message archives has been malfunctioning
for at least two months now. This is a Yahoo technical glitch, affecting many, many other Yahoo Forums
in addition to our Baseballgames Forum. In the unlikely event anyone here has any interest in the situation
and Yahoo's lack of progress on fixing this bug, you can get an update on it here:
[ http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/2009/02 ... management ].
Sorry for the inconvenience, but beyond nagging Yahoo about it, it's out of our hands. Believe you us,
we find it at least as inconvenient and annoying as you do.

Also, our routine but always relevant advisory here, yet again, to both newcomers and veteran members
of the group -- please do make sure your Yahoo membership has you registered / subscribed with a currently
active e-mail address. Astonishingly, we're flirting with a total of a thousand members in this group, and if we
do indeed hit that magic number, we want to make sure we reach it honestly, and not with any substantial
amount of dead memberships, which we occasionally check for and eliminate. If you're signed in with an inert
or disconnected e-mail address -- and for some reason, that's the status of a number of folks who've joined
in just the last few months -- we have to assume you're no longer really on board, and, regrettably, your
membership will be deleted. So please do keep your status active, fellers -- just click on that "Edit Membership"
link above the Forum title if you're no longer using the e-mail address you registered when you joined, or
if you need to update anything else about your membership.

February wasn't exactly a gab-fest in here, but conversation was steady enough that no lulls in conversation
required us to jump in with more of our Show 'n Tell presentations, even though we're eager to trot out two
big, peculiar, and very scarce 1930s action games we obtained this winter. We always welcome a Show 'n Tell
presentation from you guys, though, so if you've recently acquired some interesting vintage tabletop baseball game
you'd like to show off and talk about, then please, by all means, be our guest -- you can post a photo of it
in the "Wha'd Ya Get?" album in our Photos section. Here in the front office, we did solve the identity of
another one of the "Mystery Games" displayed in *that* album, and we'll tell you about that in the next few days
-- if you care to look in over there, know that #s 3, 4, 6, 8, and 9 have been solved, we're still looking for
additional information on #s 1 and 2, and #s 5 and 7 still elude identification. Help out, if you can.

Let's keep up the chatter, boys!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/
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To reply to a message or post a new message at Baseballgames,
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/ on the web
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_______________________________________________
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Message #5142 Sun Mar 8, 2009 3:13 pm
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
program IV request for help
Is there anyone out there who plays Program IV Baseball who also knows Excel and might help me with a project?

You can contact me at: rickert46015(at)yahoo.com
Thank you
Rick T.
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Message #5143 Mon Mar 9, 2009 1:45 pm
"Charles Kinzie" <charleskinzie(at)yahoo.com>
Baseball Manager Returns!
Jeff Downey just announced on his website, http://www.tabletop-sports.com , that he will be re-releasing
John Swistak Jr.'s Baseball Manager. Mr. Swistak himself will be making some improvements to the game.
No release date has been announced.

You can check out the thread about Baseball Manager in the Baseball Forums on the above website.
-Chuck
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Message #5144 Mon Mar 9, 2009 4:59 pm
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
Re: Baseball Manager Returns!
This is great news Chuck. I'm looking forward to it. I have been playing the game nearly non-stop
for the past three weeks and have really enjoyed it. I will be racing you to be the first to purchase.
I wonder if Jeff will let me pre-order.
Rick T.

--- "Charles Kinzie" wrote:
> Jeff Downey just announced on his website, http://www.tabletop-sports.com , that he will be re-releasing
> John Swistak Jr.'s Baseball Manager. Mr. Swistak himself will be making some improvements to the game.
> No release date has been announced....
>
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Message #5145 Mon Mar 9, 2009 5:06 pm
"Rick Hargraves" <rickh6(at)charter.net> wordman6611
Re: Baseball Manager Returns!
This is fabulous news. Baseball Manager is a great game. Even the scaled down free version that was offered
in the old Gamecraft publication was great fun. This is a game you will enjoy.
Rick

--- "Charles Kinzie" wrote:
> Jeff Downey just announced on his website, http://www.tabletop-sports.com , that he will be re-releasing
> John Swistak Jr.'s Baseball Manager. Mr. Swistak himself will be making some improvements to the game.....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5146 Mon Mar 9, 2009 7:27 pm
"Steve" <wulfie101(at)sbcglobal.net> wulfie2001
Willie Mays Game
Hi guys,
I had contacted you a few months ago in regards to an old Willie Mays board game made by
"Professional Education Products". I haven't heard anything since your initial response, so was wondering
if there has been any new info regarding the game.
Thanks...
...Steve
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5147 Mon Mar 9, 2009 10:31 pm
"charles kinzie" <charleskinzie(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
I'm very much looking forward to the new edition of the game.

To speed up play, I "cut and pasted" the Play Results Chart so that the top page contains batting ranges 6 thru 16.
The vast majority of batter's are within that range after factoring in the pitcher's rating. The second page contains
ranges 1 thru 5, and 17 thru 24. It's actually the third sheet. The second sheet is the Power chart.

I rated the 1968 Tigers "by hand" last night, but I think I might have messed up on the Triple Number.
If the Triple Number is .46, is that player's triple number a 0 or a 1?
And if the Triple Number is .83, is the triple number 0 or 1? Thank you.

I plan to play a game tonite. Not sure what teams I'll use. Maybe the 1899 Cleveland Spiders
and the 1954 Cleveland Indians?
:)
-Chuck

--- "Rick Teverbaugh" wrote:
> This is great news Chuck. I'm looking forward to it. I have been playing the game nearly non-stop
> for the past three weeks and have really enjoyed it. I will be racing you to be the first to purchase....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5148 Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:43 am
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
When I do it I round up if it's .50 or higher and round down otherwise.
I'm holding off doing more teams until I find out what might be changing in the new edition.

Let me know how your game goes. That's a good idea about the charts.
Rick T.

--- "charles kinzie" wrote:
> I'm very much looking forward to the new edition of the game.
> To speed up play, I "cut and pasted" the Play Results Chart so that the top page contains batting ranges
> 6 thru 16.... The second page contains ranges 1 thru 5, and 17 thru 24. It's actually the third sheet.
> The second sheet is the Power chart.
> I rated the 1968 Tigers "by hand" last night, but I think I might have messed up on the Triple Number.
> If the Triple Number is .46, is that player's triple number a 0 or a 1? And if the Triple Number is .83,
> is the triple number 0 or 1? Thank you....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5149 Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:22 am
"JMSJELLIS(at)AOL.COM"
and the game is?.....
I have an old diamond shaped piece of cardboard that is perferated on all 4 sides and has baseball trivia questions
on it this particular one has on top
q. batter does not move and allows pitched ball to hit him. does he take first base because he is hit by pitch?
bottom says
a. NO! he must make an effort NOT to be hit

anyone know what this may be from I have scans I can email
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5150 Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:43 pm
"charles kinzie" <charleskinzie(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
My second game was even more exciting than the first game! My second game pitted the top two teams
from the 1959 NL: Dodgers at Braves. Milwaukee was up 4-0 at the end of three, largely because of a
solo homerun by Del Crandall in the second inning, and a two-run blast from (Billy?) Bruton in the third.
The Dodgers made it a one-run game by scoring three in the top of the sixth off Warren Spahn. That included
a two-run "Moon shot" by, well, Wally Moon of course. The Braves scored a run on two errors and a single
in the bottom of the sixth to lead 5-3. The Dodgers scored one run in the eighth and tied the game with a run
in the ninth. With two outs and the bases empty in the bottom of the eleventh, Mickey Vernon blasts a
walk-off homer off reliever Sandy Koufax! Braves win 6-5 in 11!

--- "Rick Teverbaugh" wrote:
> ... Let me know how your game goes. That's a good idea about the charts.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5151 Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:06 pm
"Lionheart®" <za7002az(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
Yea, Milwaukee!
Too bad the Dodgers won the pennant that year.

--- "charles kinzie" wrote:
> My second game was even more exciting than the first game! My second game pitted the top two teams
> from the 1959 NL: Dodgers at Braves.... With two outs and the bases empty in the bottom of the eleventh,
> Mickey Vernon blasts a walk-off homer off reliever Sandy Koufax! Braves win 6-5 in 11!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5152 Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:30 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Willie Mays Game
Hello again, Steve! Thanks for hanging in there with your investigation and checking back with us.
Ehhh... here's where that Yahoo malfunction in the Message Search feature really becomes an annoyance.
We certainly recall the gist of the discussion, but we're not sure exactly how long ago that was,
where we left off with that, and what info we had for you at the time.

We do know, and we may have already discussed this, a quite different game, but nearly identical in appearance,
was also produced by Preferred Games Inc., which is very likely the very same outfit that went by the name of
"Professional Education Products" either just before or just after the "other company's" edition. And we did establish
that the game is from around 1968-69, not 1960. Is any of that new?

Beyond that, we don't think we've got much info, sorry. The one that sold as part of a huge mixed lot of games
in the April 2006 Robert Edward auction is still the only one we've seen sell on-line, although it's easily possible
we missed one somewhere in the meantime.
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Steve" wrote:
<< Hi guys, I had contacted you a few months ago in regards to an old Willie Mays board game made by
"Professional Education Products". I haven't heard anything since your initial response, so was wondering
if there has been any new info regarding the game. Thanks...
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5153 Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:41 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: and the game is?.....
Hi James, thanks for the question! Yeah, we'd really need to get a look at your gamepiece to even make a guess
as to what it is you've got. You can post scans in the "Wha'd Ya Get?" album of our Photos section, the only album
that's open for member uploads. Let us know if you encounter any difficulties with that.
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "JMSJELLIS" wrote:
<< I have an old diamond shaped piece of cardboard that is perferated on all 4 sides and has baseball trivia questions
on it... anyone know what this may be from I have scans I can email
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5154 Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:16 pm
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
Great game, though it would have been greater had the Dodgers won. You were taking a chance with Koufax there
but I guess your pitching was already picked over by that point. Sandy hadn't quite found his groove yet by then.
Rick

--- "charles kinzie" wrote:
> My second game was even more exciting than the first game! My second game pitted the top two teams
> from the 1959 NL: Dodgers at Braves.... With two outs and the bases empty in the bottom of the eleventh,
> Mickey Vernon blasts a walk-off homer off reliever Sandy Koufax! Braves win 6-5 in 11!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5155 Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:29 pm
"charles kinzie" <charleskinzie(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
Koufax was the Dodgers fifth pitcher of the game.

--- "Rick Teverbaugh" wrote:
> Great game, though it would have been greater had the Dodgers won. You were taking a chance with Koufax there
> but I guess your pitching was already picked over by that point. Sandy hadn't quite found his groove yet by then.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5156 Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:02 pm
"curt young" <curtyoung13(at)hotmail.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
holy cow! when did mickey vernon get sent down to the national league?!

--- "charleskinzie" wrote:
> My second game was even more exciting than the first game! ... With two outs and the bases empty in the
> bottom of the eleventh, Mickey Vernon blasts a walk-off homer off reliever Sandy Koufax! Braves win 6-5 in 11!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5157 Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:50 pm
"Steve" <wulfie101(at)sbcglobal.net> wulfie2001
Re: re: Willie Mays Game
Hello guys, you pretty much summed up the info where we left off with the game, it was back in Oct of 2008
when we discussed this. I was just hoping that maybe someone had come up with a positive ID of the game.
You had mentioned a forum member from Oregon named Doug "buttonboyus" Richardson that had the Preferred
Games version. Maybe he'll see this or someone might know how to get in touch with him. Anyway, I was just
trying again to get some more updated info on the game.....any info you can come up with will be much appreciated.
thanks again...
...Steve

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> Hello again, Steve! Thanks for hanging in there with your investigation and checking back with us.
> Ehhh.... We certainly recall the gist of the discussion, but we're not sure exactly how long ago that was,
> where we left off with that, and what info we had for you at the time. We do know... And we did establish....
> ... Is any of that new? ...
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5158 Mon Mar 9, 2009 7:35 pm
"Gene Newman" <belinyoh(at)charter.net> uofa57
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
Milwaukee in 1959; Pittsburgh in 1960.
Gene

--- "curt young" wrote:
> holy cow! when did mickey vernon get sent down to the national league?!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5159 Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:37 pm
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
I have forgiven you for your mistake. You obviously mean promoted from the slo-pitch softball league.
Future apology accepted.
Rick T.

--- "curt young" wrote:
> holy cow! when did mickey vernon get sent down to the national league?!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5160 Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:32 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Willie Mays Game
Hi again, Steve! Thanks for putting a date to that discussion so we could review both that and our e-mail logs
from the same period. Not sure what else we can tell ya -- we'd say that the info we have does constitute
a positive ID of both versions of the game. What else can we tell ya about the other one? (And please be
assured we ask that in complete earnest and with no sarcastic inflection whatsoever to be inferred.) Here
in the front office, we're curious as to the identities of the actual designer(s) of both versions, but that's
some arcane information unlikely to be forthcoming soon...

Doug "buttonboyus" Richardson is still a member here, subscribed to receive each and every e-mail, but
we can't guess as to the reasons for his reticence on this topic. We haven't tried to contact him off-list,
but you can e-mail him yourself with whatever questions you have (just click on the "Members" link in
the left-hand menu of the Forum's front page, enter a search for his name or Yahoo ID, and there ya go).
If you find out more than we've been able to provide, please let us know!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Steve" wrote:
<< Hello guys, you pretty much summed up the info where we left off with the game, it was back in Oct of 2008
when we discussed this. I was just hoping that maybe someone had come up with a positive ID of the game.
You had mentioned a forum member from Oregon named Doug "buttonboyus" Richardson that had the Preferred
Games version. Maybe he'll see this or someone might know how to get in touch with him. Anyway, I was just
trying again to get some more updated info.....any info you can come up with will be much appreciated....
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5161 Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:41 pm
"steves528100" <steves528100(at)yahoo.com>
Bingham-Waggoner Zimmer's Baseball Game
Butch....It has been awhile since I checked in with you. Just to let you know that we at the Bingham-Waggoner
Estate in Independence, Missouri are still enjoying our Zimmer's Base Ball game! Since the beginning of a new
baseball season is upon us, I would like to extend a special invitation to any of your avid baseball fans who
may be passing through Independence in the near future, to stop, say hi, and let me give tour of our house....
and, of course, our Zimmer's game. I'll even throw in a cold drink (non-alcoholic) and a sandwich (that's special
coming from a cheapskate like me!).

Again, thanks for all the assistence you rendered in helping us to uncover our little gem!
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5162 Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:29 am
"Kevin Barwin" <kbdb5417(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
Exciting game! Not sure what Mickey was doing hitting against Koufax, lefty to lefty, but that's board game baseball.
Vernon played in the NL for the Braves in 59 and Pirates in 60 as a player coach. Had he not lost the 44 and
45 seasons to the War he may have garnered 3,000 hits and a Hall-of-Fame nomination. Ironcially, the only
two times he got over 200 hits in a season he won the batting title.
The 59 Dodgers were sparked bu the addition in mid-season of Maury Wills. He is often given credit for the
LA pennant by plugging a gaping hole at shortstop. More trivia: Wills, who in 1962 broke the current record
for most steals in a season, didn't have a TOPPS baseball card until he played for the Pirates in 1967.
Anybody know why?

--- "charleskinzie" wrote:
> My second game was even more exciting than the first game! My second game pitted the top two teams
> from the 1959 NL: Dodgers at Braves.... With two outs and the bases empty in the bottom of the eleventh,
> Mickey Vernon blasts a walk-off homer off reliever Sandy Koufax! Braves win 6-5 in 11!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5163 Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:08 pm
"curt young" <curtyoung13(at)hotmail.com>
mea culpa
dr t:
i must apologize 4 assuming that in 1959 the NL was significantly weaker than the AL as is so clearly the case
over many recent seasons. an analysis in the 80s showed that pitchers moving from the AL to the NL improved
in ERA, batters improved in BA when moving the same direction, by a 52% to 48% margin. i admit 2 not having
done a similar analysis of the 1959 season, so it is possible that mickey vernon could have been making only
a SLIGHT downward career move in going from the AL to the NL at that time. currently, however, the AL is
watering down its product in allowing interleague play. i hope they give a discount on ticket prices!

if u will not c reason, i choose spreadsheets at 30 paces. [sliderules r so passe'.]
curt young

--- "rickert46015" wrote:
> I have forgiven you for your mistake. You obviously mean promoted from the slo-pitch softball league.
> Future apology accepted.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5164 Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:32 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Bingham-Waggoner Zimmer's Baseball Game
Howdy, Steve, good to hear from you again, and thanks for the update! For newcomers on board since
late last spring, or for veteran members who'd like to refresh their recollection of the tale of the serendipitous
discovery of the 1893 McLoughlin *Zimmer's* at the Bingham-Waggoner -- and since Yahoo's Message Search
function is still inoperative -- we'll direct you to these message threads:
message 4244, 26 March 2008
message 4473, 5 May 2008
message 4547, 28 May 2008
message 4552, 31 May 2008
message 4564, 4 June 2008
In case you're unsure how to navigate the Message archives, click on "Messages" in the left-hand menu,
then enter the message number in the "Message #" box and hit "Go." That bit does work. Or scroll down to
the "Message History" grid near the bottom of the front page of the Forum and click on the box for the
appropriate date. You can follow those discussions by clicking on the follow-up posts displayed at the end
of each initial message.

Steve, we'll also give the Bingham-Waggoner website a plug here:
http://www.bwestate.org/
Just a thought, but, y'know, you might want to suggest to Shireen or Sharon that they add a page to the site
showcasing the Zimmer's and the whole story behind it...
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "steves528100" wrote:
<< Butch....It has been awhile since I checked in with you. Just to let you know that we at the Bingham-Waggoner
Estate in Independence, Missouri are still enjoying our Zimmer's Base Ball game! Since the beginning of a new
baseball season is upon us, I would like to extend a special invitation to any of your avid baseball fans who may be
passing through Independence in the near future, to stop, say hi, and let me give tour of our house.... and, of course,
our Zimmer's game.... Again, thanks for all the assistence you rendered in helping us to uncover our little gem!
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5165 Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:50 pm
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
Re: mea culpa
But you are comparing apples and oranges. The National League is baseball. You may have heard of it.
The American League plays a sport "designated" as something else but I haven't figured out what to all it.
Yet I do imagine that if I created a different sport from baseball and changed the rules so that offense dominated,
then probably that league could easily have higher ERA and batting averages. But does that make it better?
Maybe this new sport, not baseball now mind you, could have two platoons. One group would play offense
and one would play defense. Then the hitters could all resemble overweight, out-of-shape slo-pitch softball players
instead of just one or two. We could call it platoonball.

I'm going to designate someone to participate in your fight for me. I'm sure you'll find that a superior choice.
Rick T.

--- "curt young" wrote:
> dr t: i must apologize 4 assuming that in 1959 the NL was significantly weaker than the AL as is so clearly the case
> over many recent seasons. an analysis in the 80s showed that pitchers moving from the AL to the NL improved
> in ERA, batters improved in BA when moving the same direction, by a 52% to 48% margin....
> ... the AL is watering down its product in allowing interleague play. i hope they give a discount on ticket prices!
> if u will not c reason, i choose spreadsheets at 30 paces. [sliderules r so passe'.]
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5166 Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:53 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: mea culpa
Hey guys, an entertaining exchange so far, and we know at least one of you (and we're going to assume
both of you) debates in good humor and with tongue partially in cheek. If it gets the slightest bit less than cordial,
however, and since it is kind of off-topic, we'd ask that you carry on with it instead in our no-holds-barred
"back room" forum [ http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Baseballsims/ ].
Thanks!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Rick Teverbaugh" wrote:
<< But you are comparing apples and oranges. The National League is baseball. You may have heard of it.
The American League plays a sport "designated" as something else but I haven't figured out what....
I'm going to designate someone to participate in your fight for me. I'm sure you'll find that a superior choice.
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5167 Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:27 pm
"Steve" <wulfie101(at)sbcglobal.net> wulfie2001
Re: re: Willie Mays Game
Hello guys, Thanks for all your help so far, i guess what I was referring to when I mentioned a positive ID was........
1. What year was it made?
2. Which game came first, my game or the "Preferred" version?
3. Are there any other versions of the game out there just like mine, or is this the only one that is known to exist?

We seem to have come up with some info based in comparison to the Preferred version as what we think it might be,
but nothing definate on the version that I have, being no one has seen this game before.
Thanks again...
...Steve

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> ... Not sure what else we can tell ya -- we'd say that the info we have does constitute a positive ID of
> both versions of the game. What else can we tell ya about the other one? ....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5168 Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:27 pm
"steves528100" <steves528100(at)yahoo.com>
Re: Zimmer's Base Ball Game
Butch...thanks for the suggestion about including the Zimmer in our website!
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5169 Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:41 pm
"Charles Kinzie" <charleskinzie(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
Short answer: There are no lefty/righty splits in Baseball Manager.

--- "Kevin Barwin" wrote:
> Exciting game! Not sure what Mickey was doing hitting against Koufax, lefty to lefty,
> but that's board game baseball....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5170 Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:06 pm
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
And I'm so glad that's true. Lefty/righty splits in tabletop games, when based on real stats are the most
annoying thing I've ever come across. They are often based on samples that are too small and often distort
reality. They often make tabletop gamers make decisions that would never happen in real life.
Rick T.

--- "Charles Kinzie" wrote:
> Short answer: There are no lefty/righty splits in Baseball Manager.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5171 Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:33 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Willie Mays Game
Hi again, Steve -- ah! Okay. All fair questions, and thanks for getting us back up to speed on the research.
Our best guesses (and they're mostly only that):
1 - Given that the box graphics for both games are nearly identical, we'd say they were produced within
a year or two of each other. Given the photo image of an Oakland A's pitcher on one of the cards in the
Preferred Games version, it's certain that game was made no earlier than 1968. And given the photo image
of a Kansas City A's pitcher on another of those cards, it's a safe bet it was made not long at all *after* 1968.
Since the photo of the Oakland pitcher had to have been taken during the '68 season before the game was
produced, we'd put that edition *tentatively* at 1969.
2 - Absolutely just a guess here, but only because the card/chart mechanic of the Preferred Games version seems
-- to us -- a simplified and more accessible refinement than the oddball "quality points"/basepath-ludo system of
the Professional Education version, we'd suspect that your Professional Education version was the earlier one,
maybe 1968.
3 - Two separate questions! If our shaky recall is correct and if our records are any indication, your Professional
Education version *is* the only one known -- which does *not* mean it's the only one out there, just the only one
that we've seen surface in the last several years. Or maybe it *is* the only surviving example!

Short of someone coming forward forty years later and claiming they were involved with either company's version
of the game -- or maybe someone asking Mays himself or his agent if they have some recollection or information
about the endorsement deal -- it would be hard, unfortunately, to pin things down any more precisely. We did
run a quick search through the California State Department records and came up empty on both entities.
Not terribly surprising, since small short-lived indie game-makers are frequently "corporations" in name only
and often aren't registered as such with their state's commerce department.
If anyone on board is in the vicinity of Hayward California and would care to inquire with that town's
chamber of commerce, we'd appreciate your telling us what you find out!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Steve" wrote:
<< Hello guys, Thanks for all your help so far, i guess what I was referring to when I mentioned a positive ID was....
1. What year was it made?
2. Which game came first, my game or the "Preferred" version?
3. Are there any other versions of the game out there just like mine, or is this the only one that is known to exist?
...
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5172 Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:17 am
"dkathman1" <djk1(at)ix.netcom.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
Maury Wills did not have a Topps baseball card until 1967 because he refused to sign a contract with Topps.
They had not signed him to a contract in the minors, as they usually did with all players likely to make the majors,
and he was so offended that he refused to sign when he did make the majors, and so they couldn't use his picture.
I'm not sure what led him to change his mind in 1967.
Dave

--- "Kevin Barwin" wrote:
> ... More trivia: Wills, who in 1962 broke the current record for most steals in a season, didn't have
> a TOPPS baseball card until he played for the Pirates in 1967. Anybody know why?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5173 Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:44 pm
"markwayne61" <Klaatu(at)email.com>
Hello All - Just joined
And I have a question concerning a tabletop stats and dice based baseball game I played in the early 70's as a kid.
I have no clue what it was called, but boy would I love to find this set again!

It was essentially an all star set of the greatest players from each team. I remember that there were team "sheets",
essentially and 8 x 10 semi laminated sheet in colors of red and green I believe. Each sheet listed players and
what each dice roll would mean vs either a L handed pitcher or R handed pitcher. You rolled your dice and the
associated number on the sheet would be the result. I remember some of the team sheets would have "blank areas"
where an all stars name would be. It would list everything else...position, bats l or r, throws l or r and all of the
stats, but not the name.
I think it was a licensing issue with the game... but if you were a baseball history nut like i was, you could
pretty much figure out who the missing "all star" at that position was for a particular team. I played the Pirates
a lot, and I remember their sheet listed Clemente, Stargell, Sanguillen, along with Carey, The Waner Brothers,
Fred Clarke, Honue Wagner...so this must have been in the mid 70's I think.

Anyone have a clue what this game was called??
Thanks
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5174 Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:07 pm
"Tom Stillman" <giantsfan_94121(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
--- "dkathman1" wrote:
> ...I'm not sure what led him to change his mind in 1967.
>

Money!
8-)
Tom Stillman
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5175 Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:42 pm
"Kevin Barwin" <kbdb5417(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!
That's the answer. Maury sued TOPPS for putting his likeness on a 1960 World Series card showing him attempting
to tag out Luis Aparico in "Aparico swipes second". Maury and TOPPS eventually settled out of court and part of
the result was his belated welcome to the TOPPS family, with a money stipend, of course. Ted Williams was the
only other player I know that kept TOPPS from printing his card. In 1960 he apparently realized his contract
had expired or was somehow null and void and he signed with FLEER and they produced a Ted Williams set.

How does this tie in with Board baseball? I was wondering if any of the inventors or producers of the games
paid any of the players premiums for use of their names and likeness? I am wondering if any of the current
producers have agreements with MLB?
Kevin

--- "dkathman1" wrote:
> Maury Wills did not have a Topps baseball card until 1967 because he refused to sign a contract with Topps.
> They had not signed him to a contract in the minors, as they usually did with all players likely to make the majors,
> and he was so offended that he refused to sign when he did make the majors, and so they couldn't use his picture.
> I'm not sure what led him to change his mind in 1967.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5176 Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:09 pm
"eric furman" <erfurman(at)yahoo.com>
Re: Hello All - Just joined
mark,
that sounds like SPORTS ILLUSTRATED ALL TIME ALL STAR BASEBALL GAME. it was part of a series that
they put out in the early 70's. they turn up on ebay a few times a year and typically sell from $150-$300.
they did a similar football game as well.
eric (spookyshobbyshop.com)

--- "markwayne61" wrote:
> ... I have a question concerning a tabletop stats and dice based baseball game I played in the early 70's as a kid.
> I have no clue what it was called, but boy would I love to find this set again!
> It was essentially an all star set of the greatest players from each team. I remember... there were team "sheets",
> essentially and 8 x 10 semi laminated sheet in colors of red and green I believe. Each sheet listed players and
> what each dice roll would mean vs either a L handed pitcher or R handed pitcher....
> ... Anyone have a clue what this game was called?? Thanks
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5177 Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:22 pm
"northattleboroguy" <GiammarcoR(at)aol.com>
Re: Hello All - Just joined
Hi Mark, that was Sports Illustrated All-Time All-Star Game. It was an awesome and easy game to play.
A lot of fun. You can find it from time to time on Ebay at outrageous prices (usually around $150 and up).
There are a few sites out there devoted to this game and a few that have the charts made from excel spreadsheets
so you can download them and use them to play the game now.

I remember the blank spaces, too. Some were obvious like Joe Dimaggio. But others required a bit more savvy,
like Bill Terry for the Giants and Mike Garcia for the Indians.

Thanks for bringing it up because it got me thinking again about how much I enjoyed playing that as a kid!
Welcome to the forum...
...Bob

--- "markwayne61" wrote:
> ... I have a question concerning a tabletop stats and dice based baseball game I played in the early 70's as a kid.
> I have no clue what it was called, but boy would I love to find this set again!
> It was essentially an all star set of the greatest players from each team. I remember... there were team "sheets",
> essentially and 8 x 10 semi laminated sheet in colors of red and green I believe. Each sheet listed players and
> what each dice roll would mean vs either a L handed pitcher or R handed pitcher. You rolled your dice and the
> associated number on the sheet would be the result.... some of the team sheets would have "blank areas"
> where an all stars name would be.... Anyone have a clue what this game was called?? Thanks
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5178 Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:48 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Hello All - Just joined
Howdy Mark, welcome to the group and thanks for your question! And thanks too to Eric and Kevin who were
johnny-on-the-spot with an answer for you. We'll just add that, here in the "front office," we do monitor sale prices
for games (we try, anyway -- it's not like we don't miss a few here and there), and *All-Time All-Star* does come up
every four to six months on average on eBay, with an average final price of just over $210. "Cheapest" we've seen
one get away was $90. for a slightly weatherbeaten but complete game, highest was $430. for, oddly, a similarly
well-used set that was entirely missing its original box.
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "markwayne61" wrote:
<< ...I have a question concerning a tabletop stats and dice based baseball game I played in the early 70's as a kid.
I have no clue what it was called, but boy would I love to find this set again!
It was essentially an all star set of the greatest players from each team. I remember...
... Anyone have a clue what this game was called?? Thanks
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5179 Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:32 pm
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
was Re: Baseball Manager Returns! - now: player likeness
I know when Wizards of the Coast did a collectible card baseball game they couldn't include Bonds
because he hadn't signed a contract with the Major League Players Association.
Rick T.

--- "Kevin Barwin" wrote:
> That's the answer. Maury sued TOPPS for putting his likeness on a 1960 World Series card....
> ... How does this tie in with Board baseball? I was wondering if any of the inventors or producers of the games
> paid any of the players premiums for use of their names and likeness? I am wondering if any of the current
> producers have agreements with MLB?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5180 Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:35 pm
"markwayne61" <Klaatu(at)email.com>
Re: Hello All - Just joined
Thanks a ton for both replies!! That is IT!!!!
Oh man....I wonder where my set is.....

Got to find those sites you are talking about!!
Mark

--- "northattleboroguy" wrote:
> Hi Mark, that was Sports Illustrated All-Time All-Star Game. It was an awesome and easy game to play.
> A lot of fun. You can find it from time to time on Ebay at outrageous prices (usually around $150 and up).
> There are a few sites out there devoted to this game and a few that have the charts made from excel
> spreadsheets so you can download them and use them to play the game now....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5181 Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:37 pm
"Tom Stillman" <giantsfan_94121(at)yahoo.com>
A new game from Topps
I don't know if anyone saw this. I got an email announcing Booster sets so I copied the description:

"Introducing Topps Attax, the new card game that puts kids in charge of the action. Manage the team,
call your pitches, face off against your friends in head-to-head action or take the battle online at ToppsTown.com.
Easy to Learn. Fun to Play. 230 Top MLB Players on 320 cards. Boosters include 4 Base cards and 1 Code card
or Silver Foil card."

That's all I know about it.
Tom Stillman
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5182 Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:39 pm
"curt young" <curtyoung13(at)hotmail.com>
Re: Hello All - Just joined
dr mark:
it is definitely 1 of the SI versions of baseball invented by david neft 4 which u r searching. "all-time all-star baseball"
had color charts 4 each of the original 16 NL and AL teams, with batters on the front, pitchers on the back.
if you search the internet under tabletop baseball and sports illustrated ATAS u will find much of what u need
2 bring the game back. there were other seasons of SI baseball under the name "pennant race", the 1972
[shortened by strike] season having individual player cards, but not in color. other seasons with the teams
in color charts similar to ATAS r out there in e-land if u look around! u will need to make some of the funny dice
SI had, but there is also a file out there on how 2 make some out of ordinary 6-sided dice. if u do not find
what u r looking 4, let us know, but there is much more out there than u can handle in 1 season. u might also
search under "superstar baseball" as SI weakened the ATAS game a few years later 2 include more current guys
who were not on the original 16. it used the same dice and rules, so it will help get u started. if u have not rated
the players 4 on-base ability, power, etc, keep in touch; i have all that charted; pitchers, too.
curt young
chittenango NY
kannapolis NC

ps -- the missing names included don drysdale, dom dimaggio, his brother what's-his-face.

--- "Klaatu" wrote:
> ... I have a question concerning a tabletop stats and dice based baseball game I played n the early 70's as a kid.
> I have no clue what it was called, but boy would I love to find this set again!
> It was essentially an all star set of the greatest players from each team. I remember... there were team "sheets",
> essentially and 8 x 10 semi laminated sheet in colors of red and green I believe. Each sheet listed players and
> what each dice roll would mean... Anyone have a clue what this game was called?? Thanks
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5183 Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:57 pm
"northattleboroguy" <GiammarcoR(at)aol.com>
Re: Baseball Manager Returns!
I dont know about board games or cards that couldnt include players, but I do know that EA Sports couldnt include
Barry Bonds a few years ago in their MVP Baseball game because he wasnt a member of the players union.
They replaced him with a fictitious player who had all the same ratings as Bonds, but hit from the right side
of the plate. It was easy enough to go in and change his name.

--- "Kevin Barwin" wrote:
> That's the answer. Maury sued TOPPS for putting his likeness on a 1960 World Series card....
> ... How does this tie in with Board baseball? I was wondering if any of the inventors or producers of the games
> paid any of the players premiums for use of their names and likeness? I am wondering if any of the current
> producers have agreements with MLB?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5184 Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:40 pm
"dcpayne125" <dcpayne125(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Hello All - Just joined
More about the recent life of SI AllStar:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/superstarbaseball/
http://www.innova.net/~randycox/ssb.htm
http://www.dombrov.com/

plus I think you'll find some stuff at Jeff Downey's Tabletop-Sports.com

On Delphiforums there is another site dedicated to SI: http://forums.delphiforums.com/siatas/start

--- "curt young" wrote:
> ... it is definitely 1 of the SI versions of baseball invented by david neft 4 which u r searching. "all-time all-star
> baseball" had color charts 4 each of the original 16 NL and AL teams, with batters on the front, pitchers on the
> back. if you search the internet under tabletop baseball and sports illustrated ATAS u will find much of what
> u need 2 bring the game back....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5185 Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:21 pm
"Bob" <rgfray(at)yahoo.com>
REALSTAT BASEBALL is here!
Now available from Bob Fray Sportsgames - REALSTATtm Baseball.

The first season created is the 2008 MLB season which features the World Champion Phillies.
All 30 major league teams are included. Over 730 batters are individually rated including many pitchers.

Batters are rated for on-base percentage, walks vs. hits, strikeouts vs. fielding outs and hit type distribution
(Singles, doubles, etc.) .
Over 640 pitchers are individually rated from the 2008 MLB season for adjustments to on-base percentage,
walks vs. hits allowed, strikeouts vs. fielding outs allowed and HR allowed.
Pitchers abilities affect every at bat in multiple ways. Pitches are also rated for endurance.

The game is based on 1-1000 chances per event, achieved by rolling three 10-sided dice
or referring to a 1-1000 random number table (included).

Stolen bases are affected by the runner's stolen base rating and the catcher's caught stealing adjustment.
Charts for sacrifice bunts, squeeze plays and hit and run plays are included.

Due to the multiple dice rolls required for each at bat, Realstattm Baseball is not a fast playing game, but
it is a bit different than most of the baseball stat replay board games on the market.

Game comes in Adobe pdf along with some Microsoft Excel spreadsheets for the blank teams
and stat keeping spreadsheets.

PRE-SEASON SPECIAL: All game parts and all 30 2008 teams – over 1370 players rated. ONLY $14.95 !!!
This offer ends on April 10th, 2009 – The price for orders placed after April 10th, 2009 will be $18.95.
Game delivered by email. Paypal preferred. My paypal ID is rgfray(at)yahoo.om.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5186 Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:30 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Player licensing fees (was Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!)
Kevin, hi -- other than the Wills and Williams stories (and Honus Wagner), we're not aware of any similar situations
involving individual players in dispute with card companies (Fred Y might know a Ty Cobb story -- he roomed
with Cobb in his playing days!). But if you're asking about games having licensing disputes with players in general
or with the Players' Association, then yes, that's been a major issue for over thirty years. Steve LeShay, inventor
of the *SherCo Baseball* series of games, and if we recall correctly, George Gerney, inventor of *ASG Baseball*
and Jim Barnes, inventor of the *Statis Pro* line, all talk about how the rising costs of licensing almost halted,
or did in fact halt, production of those games (our interviews with all three are in our "Files" section here), and
it was certainly a factor in the discontinuation of Cadaco's *All-Star Baseball.* Those licensing fees have
undoubtedly added to the rising costs of other MLB sims like *APBA,* *Strat-O-Matic,* *Dynasty League,*
and *Replay,* among others.
Maybe Dean Patino of *Baseball Classics* can contribute some up-to-date information here on how he deals with
MLBPA licensing...
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Kevin Barwin" wrote:
<< That's the answer. Maury sued TOPPS for putting his likeness on a 1960 World Series card... Ted Williams was
the only other player I know that kept TOPPS from printing his card.... How does this tie in with Board baseball?
I was wondering if any of the inventors or producers of the games paid any of the players premiums for use of
their names and likeness? I am wondering if any of the current producers have agreements with MLB?
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5188 Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:22 pm
"Charles Kinzie" <charleskinzie(at)yahoo.com>
Player licensing fees (was Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!)
By 1974 or 1975, Extra Innings creator and marketer Jack Kavanaugh ceased using the names of players
on his rosters. For the 1975 season, he published his ratings without identifying the players, but by some
utterly amazing coincidence, the ratings on each team's roster seemed to coincide excactly with the order
in which the player's stats appeared in the Sporting News final stats issue. Amazing!
:)

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> ... if you're asking about games having licensing disputes with players in general or with the Players' Association,
> then yes, that's been a major issue for over thirty years....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5189 Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:37 pm
"mzjr66" <mzjr66(at)yahoo.com>
time travel baseball
Hey guys, what is going on with the release/active status of time travel baseball?
Is there another sight other than table top sports that I can get any downloads for the game?
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5190 Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:58 am
"Kevin Barwin" <kbdb5417(at)yahoo.com>
Re: Player licensing fees (was: Re: Baseball Manager Returns!)
Thank you, very enlightening.

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> ... other than the Wills and Williams stories (and Honus Wagner), we're not aware of any similar situations involving
> individual players in dispute with card companies... But if you're asking about games having licensing disputes
> with players in general or with the Players' Association, then yes, that's been a major issue for over thirty years.
> Steve LeShay, inventor of the *SherCo Baseball* series of games, and if we recall correctly, George Gerney,
> inventor of *ASG Baseball* and Jim Barnes, inventor of the *Statis Pro* line, all talk about how the rising costs
> of licensing almost halted, or did in fact halt, production of those games (our interviews with all three are in
> our "Files" section here), and it was certainly a factor in the discontinuation of Cadaco's *All-Star Baseball.*
> Those licensing fees have undoubtedly added to the rising costs of other MLB sims like *APBA,* *Strat-O-Matic,*
> *Dynasty League,* and *Replay,* among others.
> Maybe Dean Patino of *Baseball Classics* can contribute some up-to-date information here on how he deals with
> MLBPA licensing...
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5191 Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:03 pm
"curt young" <curtyoung13(at)hotmail.com>
Re: Player licensing fees (was Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!)
hey u guys:
i remember that! keep that in mind. i think he also sent out a separate mailing 2 subscribers, because i definitely
recall being able 2 cut out an entire team of hitters and glue them in place over the blank spot in the roster sheet
of stats. no team name included, but the vertical spacing of the names matched well with that of the stats.
[hint, hint] there may have been 1 piece of data included with the player names, such as a bunt rating or
L/R status, but i cannot recall 4 sure without digging out me notebook.
lyle13

ps -- if i recall, his walk and strikeout spaces were rounded 2 the nearest 6, kinda crude 4 a 216-space matrix,
so i did some calculating and pencilled in the exact number of W or K 2 add or subtract 2 hone the accuracy a bunch.

--- "charleskinzie" wrote:
> By 1974 or 1975, Extra Innings creator and marketer Jack Kavanaugh ceased using the names of players
> on his rosters. For the 1975 season, he published his ratings without identifying the players, but by some
> utterly amazing coincidence, the ratings on each team's roster seemed to coincide excactly with the order
> in which the player's stats appeared in the Sporting News final stats issue. Amazing! ...
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5192 Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:59 pm
"Robert Henkel" <jagracer55(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: time travel baseball
I'd be interested also, get some more teams.

--- "mzjr66" wrote:
> Hey guys, what is going on with the release/active status of time travel baseball?
> Is there another sight other than table top sports that I can get any downloads for the game?
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5193 Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 pm
"johnvitz" <angelusmusic(at)aol.com>
Re: Player licensing fees (was Re: re: Baseball Manager Returns!)
Hi Gang,
My sympathies to Jack. Extra Innings was a great game.

This In 1979 when I went to market with BASEBALL CHALLENGE, I was shocked that I had to pay $4000 to
the MLB Player's Assn. The lawyer who oversaw this outrage was, of all people, Peter Rose! (I asked - no relation).

I paid the 4Gs for 2 years before someone, it may have been Steve LaShay of Sherco (?) told me that the fee
applies only if I used the player names on cards. My players were listed in a Rating Booklet, so I was exempt -
but, nonetheless, I was also out $8000 for the previous 2 years. That would have gone a long way towards
marketing the game. As it turned out, I was yet another victim of the MLBPA scam.

FYI, if anyone is interested in more info about BASEBALL CHALLENGE, let me know and I'll send a brochure.
I still have several unopened mint condition boxes of my original stock in storage
:-)

--- "Charles Kinzie" wrote:
> By 1974 or 1975, Extra Innings creator and marketer Jack Kavanaugh ceased using the names of players
> on his rosters. For the 1975 season, he published his ratings without identifying the players, but by some
> utterly amazing coincidence, the ratings on each team's roster seemed to coincide excactly with the order
> in which the player's stats appeared in the Sporting News final stats issue. Amazing! ...
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5194 Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:13 am
"Jim Magaha" <jameswmagaha(at)bellsouth.net> yobromojo
Re: Player licensing fees (was: Re: Baseball Manager Returns!)
I have my Negamco Major League Baseball game from 1974. Negamco provided a booklet with no named players.
However the booklet list the player's numbers, positions and games played on a separate page for each team.
Most interesting was the booklet had blanks by each player for each letter in a player's name.
It was easy for me as a 14 year old fan to write in every players name including all subs!
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5195 Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:42 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Mystery Game # 9
Hi fellers! A little lull in conversation here in the Forum gives us the opportunity, without too much interrupting
the on-going discussions, to get back for a moment to the central topic of antique and collectible games .
It hasn't been quite a year since we shooed Mystery Game #9 on stage for your consideration, but since
we didn't get a single guess as to its identity in all that time, we won't wait for a full year to pass
before letting you know we've solved it ourselves.

You can take another look at it in the "Mystery Game" folder of our Photos section. Turns out it was practically
right under our noses the whole time -- the anonymous board and spinner shown there (and described in the
quoted material below) actually belong to *Play Ball,* a little novelty made by the Plast-O-Matic Corporation.
There's still a bit of a mystery remaining, since we've never been able to put an accurate date to that game.
Our guess is late 1950s, although we've seen it described at auction as "1930s." Some history of Plast-O-Matic
of Litchfield Massachusetts might guide us, but as is the frustrating case with so many small extinct companies,
all record of their existence seems to be absent on the interweb, including the Commonwealth of Massachusetts
State Department website. The current Plast-O-Matic company you'll find cropping up in most web searches,
makers of specialty valves, is not related to the Litchfield game-makers. If anybody on board has any info at all
on the Litchfield outfit, we'd greatly appreciate hearing it.

Anyway, at least we now know the source of the board and spinner. Incidentally, once again for anyone
who hasn't previously or recently looked in on the Mystery Game folder, Game #s 3, 4, 6, 8, and now 9
have been solved. We've got incomplete info on Game #1 and still pretty much nada on #s 2, 5, and 7.
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "butch7999" wrote:
<< Hi again, fellers! We've got another Photo item for ya, and we're asking your help on this one.
Yep, it's been awhile, but we're reviving the Mystery Game topic, as we just recently bought a thing and
even *we* don't know what the heck it is. You can get a somewhat faint look at it in the "Mystery Games"
folder of the website's Photos section -- two pics labelled "#9" at the end of that album (photos 14 and 15).
Darnit but that spinner looks familiar, but we just can't place it. All we've got is the gameboard / playing field,
the spinner, and the instructions.
The bifold gameboard measures 15.5x15". It's machine-cut, gridded into 16 mostly rectangular sections, and
printed on a fairly thin but sturdy plain grey-backed cardboard, rather like that used for pre-War cereal boxes or
detergent boxes. The spinner and instructions are on the same sort of cardboard, but the spinner (4.75" square)
is hand-cut on all four edges. The instruction card (11.25x4.75") is machine-cut along the long sides and at top,
but hand-cut on the bottom edge, where the cut matches one of the sides of the spinner card.
The typography is fairly generic, suggestive of 1930s-'40s, but it could be a little bit older or a lot more recent
than that. There's some squishing of the ink within the boldface lettering, suggesting it was run off on an
old-style platen press, but no guarantee there.
Of course, there's not a single clue anywhere on the board, spinner, or instructions giving the slightest hint
of when, where, or by whom it was made. Anyone recognize it? ...
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5196 Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:46 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Olsen's & E120s... and Parker Brothers
Hey fellers, a little more ancient historical trivia here for the handful of people on the planet
who might somehow find this intriguing...

While exhuming that business from the Message archives on Mystery Game #9, we were reminded of another
discussion from almost a year ago concerning an advertisement printed in the instructions of *Olsen's Base Ball
played with Cards
,* the 1922 number made by the Olsen Games Co, based variously in Chicago and in Portland
Oregon. The ad, still seen here: http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k305/ ... final1.jpg
(thanks to Craigg "the source" for keeping that on-line) offers fifteen cards for a dime or a full set of 120
for fifty cents. What's odd is that the elaborate design of those player cards (unrelated to the Olsen card game)
clearly identifies them as examples of either E120 American Caramels, or V61 Neilson's Chocolates, or W573
Cream Nut / Goodie Bread / Cafe du Monde.

As Fred Y astutely pointed out in that discussion, cross-promotion of products involving baseball games,
baseball cards, candy, tobacco, and whatnot is not at all uncommon. However, this usually involved brands
with national or at least widespread distribution, so it seemed to us at least curious that a very small indie
game company in one part of the country would have struck a promotional deal with a relatively small
candy manufacturer in an entirely different part of the country. We can imagine a few unlikely but plausible
scenarios in which Olsen's sale of candy cards might have been enabled, but it's all just guesswork and
we'll probably never really know for sure.

Anyway! The point here, such as it is, and not this advances any of this research so much as an inch, is that
we recently ran across a very nice example of *The Major League Base Ball Game* by Parker Brothers from
the early-mid 1920s. Parkers, of course, often copied or obtained the rights to games made by small indie
game-makers, and Olsen's was just one of those, repackaged as *The Major League Base Ball Game.*
(Parkers also produced a different game with the same box and title -- Parkers re-used the boxes and titles
of many of their games to package completely different games in later years, and also packaged several of
their games with completely different boxes and titles.) In this case, however, it's the exact same game as
Olsen's, and this particular example reprints the directions almost exactly as they appeared in the Olsen's editions,
with the exception of the advert for the candy cards. The only difference in that respect, though, is that
Parkers does not advertise the player cards for sale, but merely uses the same E120 / V61 / W573 illustrations
as decoration in the rules folder, surrounding a blurb for other Parker (non-baseball) card games.

Okay, sorry, even *we're* not sure what the point of all that really was. Just trivial historical interest, maybe.
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "butch7999" wrote:
<< Hey there Fred, thanks for those additional insights! Can we rule out the V61s based on the mention in the ad
on the Olsen rules sheet that the set includes 120 cards, or were they, like the W573s, a 120-card set? The E120s
had 240, but with 120 in each of the American and National League sets, those remain a good candidate too...
it's only once in a blue moon that we see two unrelated companies cross-promoting each other's products ...
a little indie game publisher in Chicago, getting hooked up with a candy-and-cards outfit from Pennsylvania
seemed unusual. We'd have thought another Chicago firm would have been much more likely. American Caramel
(source of the E120s) was in Lancaster and York, P-A; Neilson's Chocolates (V61) was a Canadian issue.
A little research tells us the W573s variously promoted "Cream Nut or Goodie Bread" ("120 Different Subjects")
and "Cafe du Monde." Where were those based?
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5197 Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:50 pm
"jptreeman(at)sbcglobal.net" <jptreeman(at)sbcglobal.net>
MB Baseball Approved by Little League for Little Leaguers and their Fathers 1958
My cousin and I played MB's Baseball Approved by Little League every time he stayed over night when we were kids,
starting in 1961. We were 6 and 7 at the time. That was when he came over from Cuba. He didn't speak English
and I wasn't much good at Spanish, but we both knew the language of baseball. He became a medical doctor
and I'm now retired.

I found what was left of our old game at my mother's. It was in pretty bad shape, with only a few men surviving.
The field was in pieces.

It's pretty amazing how the "wheel" under the field was made so that there was actually a lot of strategy involved
in playing the game. It was so much like real baseball to us that we got nervous enough to take frequent time-outs
to run to the bathroom down the hall.

I've since found another game that is complete and in decent shape, but I'm wondering if there was a separate piece
used for the pitcher. I have a separate catcher and I thought I remembered the pitcher being unique from the other
defensive men. Can anyone answer this?
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5198 Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:22 am
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: MB Baseball Approved by Little League for Little Leaguers and their Fathers 1958
Hi there jp, welcome to the group and thanks for your question! Great story, by the way.
And we've always said that, for a generic, *Baseball Approved by Little League* is a very underrated game.

As for the different playing pieces, you may be remembering the baserunners or umpires. Except for the
crouching catcher, all eight other fielders, including the pitcher, were identical (white). There were also
the three baserunners and one batter (red), and the four umps (black).
We hope that helps. Any other questions, don't hesitate to ask!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "jptreeman@..." wrote:
<< My cousin and I played MB's Baseball Approved by Little League every time he stayed over night
when we were kids, starting in 1961. We were 6 and 7 at the time.... I found what was left of our old game
at my mother's. It was in pretty bad shape, with only a few men surviving. The field was in pieces.
It's pretty amazing how the "wheel" under the field was made so that there was actually a lot of strategy involved
in playing the game....
I've since found another game that is complete and in decent shape, but I'm wondering if there was a separate
piece used for the pitcher. I have a separate catcher and I thought I remembered the pitcher being unique from
the other defensive men. Can anyone answer this?
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5199 Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:04 am
"jptreeman(at)sbcglobal.net" <jptreeman(at)sbcglobal.net>
Re: MB Baseball Approved by Little League for Little Leaguers and their Fathers 1958
Thanks for the info about the pitcher piece. I guess my set is as complete as it can be.
My men are the opposite colrs than what you state - fielders are red and batter/baserunners are white.
That's the way it was in the old set as well.

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> ... you may be remembering the baserunners or umpires. Except for the crouching catcher, all eight other fielders,
> including the pitcher, were identical (white). There were also the three baserunners and one batter (red), and
> the four umps (black). We hope that helps. Any other questions, don't hesitate to ask!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5200 Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:30 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: MB Baseball Approved by Little League for Little Leaguers and their Fathers 1958
Hi again, jp -- glad we could help out. That's a very interesting piece of information you've provided us as well --
over the years, we've seen dozens of samples of *Baseball Approved by Little League,* and maybe it's just the
vagaries of chance, but every one of 'em has had white fielders and red baserunners, so it seems especially odd
that both of the two samples you've had have had red fielders and white baserunners. Question for you, then
-- there are three box cover variations for the game, one without the "And Their Fathers" bit of the legend,
two that feature it (given the subject line of your post, presumably one of those is yours). One of those two
features an adult batter in the cover illo, the other has an illo of young kids playing ball. Which of those two is yours?
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "jptreeman@..." wrote:
<< Thanks for the info about the pitcher piece. I guess my set is as complete as it can be.
My men are the opposite colrs than what you state - fielders are red and batter/baserunners are white.
That's the way it was in the old set as well.
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5201 Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:25 pm
"jptreeman(at)sbcglobal.net" <jptreeman(at)sbcglobal.net>
Re: MB Baseball Approved by Little League for Little Leaguers and their Fathers 1958
The box cover shows a red-capped kid pitching to a blue-capped kid with a catcher behind him.
I don't know what my original game had as that box was destroyed.

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> ... That's a very interesting piece of information you've provided...
> ... Question for you, then -- there are three box cover variations for the game... Which of those... is yours?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5202 Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:46 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: MB Baseball Approved by Little League for Little Leaguers and their Fathers 1958
Hey there j-p, thanks for the additional info. Fellers, j-p was kind enough to send us, off-list, a pic of his game,
which we've posted in the "Viewer Mail" album of the site's "Photos" section. We realize this is esoteric minutia
even for most of the collectors on board, but in case you're interested, j-p's example has red fielders and
white baserunners, as well as a white center "control" knob, which are all opposite (white fielders, red baserunners
and red knob) to every other sample of the game we've ever seen. Not that we're particularly observant! Maybe
it's not all that uncommon. Worth noting, though, is that j-p's edition is the one with the "kids" cover graphics,
probably the last of the three cover variations Milton Bradley produced and certainly a bit less commonly available
today than the two "adult batter" cover versions. Thanks again, j-p!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "jptreeman" wrote:
<< The box cover shows a red-capped kid pitching to a blue-capped kid with a catcher behind him....
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5203 Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:07 am
"Fred Doerfler" <edwardqmartel(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: MB Baseball Approved by Little League for Little Leaguers and their Fathers 1958
That's the first baseball game I played when I was a kid.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5204 Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:25 pm
"BJ George" <bj_buffalo_games(at)yahoo.com>
1936 S & S Game Cards
Old Cardboard web site has a gallery of a 1936 baseball card game.
http://www.oldcardboard.com/wg/wg8/wg8. ... dsetID=953

Does anyone have the rules to this game?
Thanks,
B.J.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5205 Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:28 pm
"BJ George" <bj_buffalo_games(at)yahoo.com>
Making Cards for Strat-O-Matic
Is there info on how to make your own player cards for Strat-O-Matic?
Or maybe an Excel template that will create cards automatically when you enter stats?
Thanks,
B.J.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5206 Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:26 pm
"joekingsmill" <joekingsmill(at)yahoo.com>
Akins real baseball 1915
I have a akins real baseball tin litho game. i was wondering how to get some directions on how it works
and try to find out an approximate value it looks to me like it might hanh on the wall as opposed to
it sitting on a table, it may be made to play both ways, but would appreciate any info on this game i can get
thanks in advance
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5207 Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:24 pm
"Tom Stillman" <giantsfan_94121(at)yahoo.com>
Question about Superstar Baseball Group
Hi,
Someone had been asking about SI Superstar baseball and recommended a Yahoo group for it.
Unfortunately, I have received nothing but $p@m from the group. Is it truly active or moribund
(always like the chance to use that word LOL).
Tom Stillman
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5208 Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:17 am
"Shieber, Tom" <tshieber(at)baseballhalloffame.org>
Re: Akins real baseball 1915
Joe asked about Akins Real Baseball.
A great source of info is the patent for the game:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=ZitpAA ... nt:1226841
- Tom Shieber

--- "joekingsmill" wrote:
> I have a akins real baseball tin litho game. i was wondering how to get some directions on how it works
> and try to find out an approximate value it looks to me like it might hanh on the wall as opposed to
> it sitting on a table, it may be made to play both ways, but would appreciate any info on this game i can get
> thanks in advance
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5209 Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:44 am
"curt young" <curtyoung13(at)hotmail.com>
Re: Question about Superstar Baseball Group
dr s:
the $p@m seems 2 b a recent development. superstar is not as active as others, but we r there.
curt young
kannapolis NC
chittenango NY

--- "giantsfan_94121" wrote:
> ... Someone had been asking about SI Superstar baseball and recommended a Yahoo group for it.
> Unfortunately, I have received nothing but $p@m from the group. Is it truly active or moribund
> (always like the chance to use that word LOL).
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5210 Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:50 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: 1936 S & S Game Cards
Hi there BJ, nice to see you dropping in here from over at the ASB forum, and thanks for your comment and
question! Yep, Old Cardboard is a great resource. Funny, though, that they didn't bother to include the rules
and scoring cards that came with the game. Anyway, as you might well have guessed, *The National Game* is
really a very basic "draw" game -- shuffle the cards, place the deck face down, team at bat draws the card
from the top of pile, record the play, and repeat until three are out. Shuffle again for the next half-inning
and the other team takes its turn.
Hope that helps! You don't actually own the game, do ya? Or were you thinking of re-creating it from
the Old Cardboard scans? A lot cheaper than buying a full set nowadays!
Lotsa hitting in that game, by the way -- about .372 overall, with two homers among the 52 plays.
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "BJ George" wrote:
<< Old Cardboard web site has a gallery of a 1936 baseball card game.
http://www.oldcardboard.com/wg/wg8/wg8. ... dsetID=953
Does anyone have the rules to this game? Thanks ...
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5211 Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:27 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Akins real baseball 1915
Hello Joe, welcome to the group and thanks for your question! And Tom, thanks very much for quickly chiming in
on this one (Tom is Senior Curator at the Hall of Fame, and performed more of his awesomely dogged research
to get the info on the Akins game for the 2008 games exhibit at the Hall).

Joe, here in the front office we'd always assumed the Akins was meant to be played flat on a tabletop, but
indeed there's no reason it couldn't be played hanging or standing vertically, and as you read the patent
Tom recently unearthed, you'll note Akins himself suggested it could be played either way.

The game, as we recall (been a while since we've been hands-on with one -- we may need tech support from our
branch office downstate), is rather self-explanatory -- turn the knobs, read the play results. The text of the patent
may explain in better detail. But all that's assuming it's in working order. If there's a mechanical problem,
method of play may seem a mystery. Typically, age will dry the seams and paperwork of the interior scroll
that normally makes everything in the game happen, and the game ceases to function.
Let us know if you're having a problem in that area and we may be able to offer you some advice
(we've done some exploratory surgery on one).
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Shieber, Tom" wrote:
<< Joe asked about Akins Real Baseball. A great source of info is the patent for the game:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=ZitpAA ... nt:1226841
>
> --- "joekingsmill" wrote:
> > I have a akins real baseball tin litho game. i was wondering how to get some directions on how it works
> > and try to find out an approximate value it looks to me like it might hanh on the wall as opposed to
> > it sitting on a table, it may be made to play both ways, but would appreciate any info on this game....
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5212 Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:53 pm
"kekasell" <kekasell(at)q.com>
Review of Throwback Baseabll 1.0
REVIEW OF THROWBACK BASEBALL 1.0

I am a sucker for baseball games...and especially new ones. So when I saw the ad for this game on one of the
sports forum's I frequent, I couldn't resist. I visited the website but it only provided me with scant information.
Even the video provided, which is available on both U-Ttube and at the website, did not provide me with enough
information. I was especially interested in the play mechanics and how the game results are obtained. I wrote to
the developers, aberdeentradingco.com, and they quickly responded to my questions. Although I would have liked
more information, I was still intrigued enough to buy the game and, afterall, I could not resist the temptation.
So I plopped down my $8.95 and took the plunge.

The game is available only as a PDF download. It arrived in my e-mail box about three hours after purchase.
Included in the file are the game's instructions (2 pages), "player cards" (these cards are not like player cards
you may be familiar with. They do not contain specific player statistics or characterisitics. They do not even
contain play results. They are cards that enable you to create your own players by writing in a player's name
and a number determining their overall quality. Quality is determined by 1 -3 for pitchers and 4-6 for hitters.
The combination of these two numbers will determine which results key you read the play outcome from
But we will talk more about that later when we get into the game's mechanics.), outcome keys which constitutes
the core of the game, steal cards, a 8" x 11" baseball diamond to play the game on, scoresheets, and 2 examples
of how the scoresheets can be used. These scoresheets are entirely optional and not essential to playing the game.

All the components are easy to read and well done. The result keys, which are central to the game, are easily
copied onto 2 pages front and back. There are 5 result keys in the game with 2 keys being put on a single page.
The steal cards also constitute 2 pages and the scorecards, if you decide to use them, one. Player cards make up
2 additional pages with 10 players per page. To make up two teams to play a game, you will go through four pages,
preferably of card stock quality. Since this is a PDF download, you will have to print out all the components yourself.

So let's talk about how the game plays...
To begin, this is definitely an introductory game. The play dynamics are quite simple, even in the "advanced"
version. In the basic version, you roll 3D6, add up the numbers, consult the correct key, access the number rolled ,
and you obtain your result. Play outcomes on these keys are numbered from 3 to 18 and include things such as hits,
strikeouts, errors, fly outs, groundouts, walks, double plays, you know, anything that can happen in a baseball game.
Remember that 2 keys are printed per page front and back, for a total of 5 keys. The other page constains a bunt
key and a steal key. There are slight variations of the outcomes on each of the 5 primary result keys but the
different keys are only used in the "advanced" version. Extra-base hits are usually triples of a certain roll
(4-4-4 for example).

In the advanced version, your individual players are rated and that number is put on the player card. Ratings are
not individual player characteristics but are a single global rating. Pitchers are rated from 1-3, with one being good
and three being poor. Batters are rated 4-6, with four being good and six being poor. You then compare these
two numbers to arrive at a single number, by subtracting the pitcher rating from the batter rating. The number
obtained determines which numbered key you read the play result from. It's that simple. Compare pitcher and batter
player ratings which determines what numbered key you read the result from, roll the 3D6, find your result on that
key, and move any base runners or record any outs. Although the website says games will usually take about
an hour or so to play, you could easily get one done in less than 30 minutes. Because you only consult one key
for a result, game play moves quickly.

The keys do appear to be accurate, and as stated, reflect most plays that can occur in a baseball game. But
because the results are generic, you lose the individual feel for players and how their characteristics may impact
a game. For example, each player has an equal chance of hitting a home run. All dice rolls of 18 on all five of
the keys are home runs. Doesn't matter if it is a light hitting shortstop, a pitcher, or a power hitting first baseman.
A home run is a home run is a home run, if the number rolled is 18. This is similar for other hits as well. A 14 is
a single and 4-4-4 is a double. Again, individual characteristics or attributes of players are not considered.

The same generic feel applies to bunting and stealing. To bunt, you simply roll 1D6 and consult the bunt key.
This key applies to all players. Stealing is perhaps the most innovative part of this game. You use different colored
cards to steal, with each player's speed being rated according to three colors. Fast players have green cards,
medium speed players yellow cards, and slow players, red. Two cards are blue and considered wild. If the card
drawn matches the color of the your player stealing, then he is safe. Otherwise, he is out. I found this whole
approach to stealing quite innovative and will likely import this system over to my playing of Pizza Box Baseball.

This innovative stealing system is probably the strongest suit of this game. Overall, this game definitely
has a "generic feel" to it. But that does not mean it is not fun and shouldn't be considered.

If you are looking for a quick diversion and a game absent of complex rules and mechanics, then this is it.
The introduction price is also right at $8.95. The price listed on the website is $9.95 but they offer a special
"promo" price if you input the words "web" or "tube" when purchasing. This entitles you to 10% off.

This game will also be an excellent way to introduce videogame addicted kids to the joys of tabletop sports gaming.
It is a very simple game to learn, simple to play , and probably can be understood by players as young as 7,
as long as they understand the rules of baseball. But if you're looking for something a bit more in-depth,
more realistic, or more complex, then look elsewhere.

To conclude, this is definitely an introductory game, and could serve as the first rung in a ladder to more complex
baseball simulations. But the game has a very generic feel to it and as an introductory game, I believe Jeff Downey's
little gem of a game called The Baseabll Card Game, is a better choice. The Baseabll Card Game offers more depth,
but the play mechanics remain simple, using 1 page of front and back charts and a deck of playing cards to obtain
results. Each player has more of a individual feel to them in this game as well , as batters are rated for hitting quality,
eye ,and power; while pitchers are rated for overall quality and control. Defensive quality of individual players
are also considered, as well as stealing, bunting, and hit and run. Rating individual players does take more time
in The Baseabll Card Game but once those ratings are established, the game it is a blast to play. I think it offers
a more rewarding experience as an introductory baseball game than Throwback Baseball.

But Throwback baseball is not without merit. It is simpler to play than The Baseabll Card Game, which will appeal to
a younger or less sophisticated baseball audience, the steal system is quite innovative, it will provide you with
an enjoyable diversion, and I will probably figure something out in what to do with the various numbered keys.
I may incorporate them into my play of Baseball Strategy or figure out another system to determine when the
various keys should be utilized. Perhaps the greatest thing I could develop in this game is to determine when
a numbered key will be used, not based on a comparison between pitcher and batter, but on some other criteria.
Maybe I could develop a pitcher/batter interface, similar to Baseabll Strategy, that will determine what key
will be used. I may also tweak the keys a bit, and with those two changes, Throwback Baseabll may provide
a more enjoyable experience. For those of you who have purchased this game, tell me what you think, and
be willing to share some ideas on how you can improve the use of the result keys or perhaps change the
actual keys themselves to inject more of an individual character into the game.
Ken Sell
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5213 Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:31 pm
"BJ George" <bj_buffalo_games(at)yahoo.com>
Re: 1936 S & S Game Cards
Hi Butch,
I wish I did own the game. I was thinking of typing up a set and adding today's players. Just for the fun of it.

Thanks for the info.
B.J.

--- "Butch7999" wrote:
> ... *The National Game* is really a very basic "draw" game... You don't actually own the game, do ya?
> Or were you thinking of re-creating it from the Old Cardboard scans? A lot cheaper than buying a full set....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5214 Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:21 pm
"curt young" <curtyoung13(at)hotmail.com>
Re: Review of Throwback Baseabll 1.0
dr sell:
i, too, m intrigued by your little find. when u say that a good pitcher has a low rating of 1, and a good batter
has a low rating of 4, and the results r found from a key based on a SUBTRACTION of batter minus pitcher rank,
i get 2 wondering a bit. with top quality P and B the key would b 4 - 1 = 3. i asssume this key code results in
fairly average offense. with poor quality P and B the key would likewise b 6 - 3 = 3. that the key is the same
with top grade P and B is understandable; but what happens when a good P faces a weak B? the key code
becomes 6 - 1 = 5. does that key of 5 give low offense? when a poor quality P faces a top-notch B, the key code
is 4 - 3 = 1. does that key of 1 give a high-powered offense? if so, the game mechanism makes good sense 2 me,
and clearly is the basis 4 a big step beyond most beginner baseball games.
if the rules limit the number of quality Ps and Bs a team can have, and limits the use of Ps of highest rank, this is
an ace mechanism 4 such simplicity. i can c it easily expanded upon, with each team having an ace starter or
ace reliever of rank zero, and perhaps some scrubeenie batters of rank 7 who play the middle positions exceptionally
well. new key codes at levels 6 and 7 could easily b developed by extrapolating from the offense at levels 4 and 5.
curt young
kannapolis NC
chittenango NY

--- "kekasell" wrote:
> REVIEW OF THROWBACK BASEBALL 1.0
> I am a sucker for baseball games...and especially new ones.... The game is available only as a PDF download.
> ... Included in the file are the game's instructions (2 pages), "player cards" (these cards are not like player cards
> you may be familiar with.... They are cards that enable you to create your own players by writing in a player's name
> and a number determining their overall quality. Quality is determined by 1 -3 for pitchers and 4-6 for hitters.
> The combination of these two numbers will determine which results key you read the play outcome from....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5215 Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:20 pm
"kekasell" <kekasell(at)q.com>
Re: Review of Throwback Baseball 1.0
Curt,
I believe that is exactly how the game works, which would mean a high level of sophistication with that part.
I am still playing the game and becoming more familiar with the result keys (there are five in all). When I said
the game had a "generic" feel to it, what I meant was that individual player characteristics are really not taken
into account and the entire game is driven by the keys. There are a wide variety of play outcomes available
through the keys and it does play a pretty accurate game of baseball. The keys contain common baseball play
results which are determined by a roll of three dice. Roll the three dice, add up the numbers, look under one of
the five keys to find the number rolled, and you will obtain a result. It is that simple. Everything is driven by
the roll of the dice and the keys.

The result keys are pretty neat, actually. I am thinking about different ways of using them. I would love to create
a pitcher/batter interface system to determine what key to use...in other words, make the use of a key contingent
on a pitcher/batter outcome rather than a comparison of batter to pitcher numbers. This would inject more strategy
into the game, especially in regards to what key to use. This would also create more variety with play outcomes.
Anyways, if you can think of anything different on how to use these keys, let me know.

And by the way, how is the ASB pitching system going?
Ken

--- "curt young" wrote:
> ... i, too, m intrigued by your little find. when u say that a good pitcher has a low rating of 1, and a good batter
> has a low rating of 4, and the results r found from a key based on a SUBTRACTION of batter minus pitcher rank...
> ... if so, the game mechanism makes good sense 2 me, and clearly is the basis 4 a big step beyond most
> beginner baseball games. if the rules limit the number of quality Ps and Bs a team can have, and limits
> the use of Ps of highest rank, this is an ace mechanism 4 such simplicity....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________
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