Archive - Yahoo forum posts, 2009 February 1 - March 6

Eventually, all posts from the old Yahoo Baseball Games Forum, 2004-2013. Registered members may read, but posting here is by forum administrators/moderators only. Comments on posts here, however, are welcome in the main Baseball Games forum (above) or the Baseball Sims forum (below).

Archive - Yahoo forum posts, 2009 February 1 - March 6

BaseballGamesBKW
Site Admin
Joined: 25 Oct 2013, 10:10

10 Nov 2014, 06:28 #1

BASEBALLGAMES FORUM 2009 February 1 - March 6, Messages 5058 - 5140
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Message #5058
Sun Feb 1, 2009 3:30 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Baseball Games article in AGPC Quarterly
Hiya fellers! The Winter 2008 issue (vol. 10, no.4) of the *AGPC Quarterly,* the slick house organ of
the Association of Game & Puzzle Collectors, is finally fresh off the presses. The lead article -- "Home Games:
A Century of Baseball Games" -- covers the history of tabletop baseball, focussing on the exhibit of Forum member
Mark Cooper's amazing collection of tabletop baseball games at the Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in
Cooperstown, and featuring interviews with Mark and HOF Senior Curator Tom Shieber (also a member here).
The authors: the Usual Gang of Idiots here in the Baseball Games front office. Lotsa nice photos, too (thanks
again, Tom!). Only error in the piece: somehow the link to our website was omitted. Ouch! That link was
supposed to be the entirety of our compensation for the article!

Nonetheless, here again is a link to the AGPC: http://www.agpc.org/

We're not sure if it's possible to obtain a copy of the latest Quarterly without being an AGPC member, but we'll
look into that for ya. Back issues *are* available, but you don't really want to wait a year for the Winter 2008
number, do ya?
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/
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_____________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5059 Sun Feb 1, 2009 2:25 pm
"hyscore57" <hyscore57(at)yahoo.com>
Carl Hubbel Strike 3
I have a Carl Hubble Strike 3 game in great condition in original box with offical rules, score card and balls.
What's it worth? Are there any venues to sell it besides Ebay?
Photos available.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5060 Sun Feb 1, 2009 4:02 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Carl Hubbell Strike 3
Hello Jeff, welcome to the group and thanks for your question! *Strike 3 by Carl Hubbell* -- be sure to
spell the Hall-of-Fame twirler's name correctly if you put the game up for sale on the interweb -- has averaged
right around $70. over the past several years in internet auctions for sales of examples in sharp and complete
condition, ranging from around $40. to a shade over $100. Examples in lesser condition have ranged from
about $10. to $70.

If you don't want to sell it on eBay, which has indeed become an increasingly difficult venue for vendors,
you could always try something like Craigslist, which we, as buyers only, like -- since that forerunner of eBay
now gets only a fraction of eBay's traffic and we've picked up games there for about 10-20% of their expected
market value. eBay is still *the* place to look for vintage tabletop baseball. You could also open up a
vendor page at something like RubyLane, or connect with a vendor who's already there and geographically
close to you, who might be willing to put it up for sale on your behalf.

Another alternative would be one of the "Big Four" on-line sports memorabilia auction houses -- probably
Hunt Auctions, in this case, since *Strike 3* is sort of a borderline item as far as "high-end" vintage sports
collectibles go, and REA, Mastro, and Lelands might deem it "eBay material." You might -- *might* -- wind up
with a higher price there if it sells, but you'd have to weigh that against the inconvenience of getting the game
accepted into their next auction, physically delivering it to them, dealing with consignor fees, waiting for
that next auction, and so on.

By the way, Jeff, please make sure you've read our Forum Policy concerning advertising items for sale here
in the Forum [ http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/ForumPolicy.htm ].
The rest of you guys, if you want to make further inquiries with Jeff, please contact him off-list.
Thanks!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "hyscore57" wrote:
<< I have a Carl Hubble Strike 3 game in great condition in original box with offical rules, score card and balls.
What's it worth? Are there any venues to sell it besides Ebay? Photos available.
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5061 Sun Feb 1, 2009 5:08 pm
"markwcooper(at)comcast.net"
Re: Baseball Games article in AGPC Quarterly
BKW
I want to thank you for the comprehensive and informative article of the exhibit. You did a great job as usual.
Thanks for all your time and effort regarding all you do in assisting our great hobby
Regards
Mark W Cooper

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> Hiya fellers! The Winter 2008 issue (vol. 10, no.4) of the *AGPC Quarterly,* the slick house organ of
> the Association of Game & Puzzle Collectors, is finally fresh off the presses. The lead article -- "Home Games:
> A Century of Baseball Games" -- covers the history of tabletop baseball, focussing on the exhibit of Forum
> member Mark Cooper's amazing collection of tabletop baseball games at the Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum
> in Cooperstown, and featuring interviews with Mark and HOF Senior Curator Tom Shieber (also a member here).
> The authors: the Usual Gang of Idiots here in the Baseball Games front office. Lotsa nice photos, too (thanks
> again, Tom!). Only error in the piece: somehow the link to our website was omitted. Ouch! That link was
> supposed to be the entirety of our compensation for the article!
> Nonetheless, here again is a link to the AGPC: http://www.agpc.org/
> We're not sure if it's possible to obtain a copy of the latest Quarterly without being an AGPC member, but
> we'll look into that for ya. Back issues *are* available, but you don't really want to wait a year for the
> Winter 2008 number, do ya?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5062 Tue Feb 3, 2009 4:19 pm
"lpm1029" <lpmastel(at)jhancock.com>
Re: Origin of 50-50 system
Ballpark Baseball predates SOM in use of the 50/50 concept.

--- "Ralph Bean" wrote:
> ... I'm curious as to what sports game (presumably a baseball game) first used a 50-50 (dice roll determines
> whether result if from the offense rating versus defense rating) system such as Strat-O-Matic and Pursue
> the Pennant use....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5063 Tue Feb 3, 2009 6:15 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Origin of 50-50 system
Hello LP, thanks for the comment! Interesting take on the original question. You sure about that?
You're referring to the Charles Sidman-designed game by Ball Park Inc., no? Didn't that first appear in about 1977?
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "lpm1029" wrote:
<< Ballpark Baseball predates SOM in use of the 50/50 concept.
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5064 Tue Feb 3, 2009 6:25 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Baseball Games article in AGPC Quarterly
Hi again, Mark, and thanks very much for the kind words! Couldn't have done quite the job of it that we did
without your cooperation and that of Tom Shieber at the Hall. David displayed a very nice unobtrusive touch
as editor, as well. Our only disappointment with the piece was a selfish one: between trying as always to
make certain every last tiny factual detail was correct, having every adjective and comma just so, and
arranging for the photos, we somehow forget to specify that our own website address be included with the
by-line! D'OH! We're just as anonymous and as hard to find on the interweb as ever!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "markwcooper" wrote:
<< ... I want to thank you for the comprehensive and informative article of the exhibit. You did a great job
as usual. Thanks for all your time and effort regarding all you do in assisting our great hobby
Regards...
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5065 Tue Feb 3, 2009 7:18 pm
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Origin of 50-50 system
I was playing SOM in the mid-60s and I don't remember Ball Park Baseball around then.
Rick T.

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> ... thanks for the comment! Interesting take on the original question. You sure about that?
> You're referring to the Charles Sidman-designed game by Ball Park Inc., no? Didn't that first appear in about 1977?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5066 Tue Feb 3, 2009 11:54 pm
"johnbarnes37" <johnbarnes37(at)yahoo.com>
Re: Origin of 50-50 system
Prof. Sidman started designing the game in the 1950s. It was played locally in Lawrence, Kansas in the 60s
and 70s and was the featured attraction at the Ball Park restaurant, where the tables were equipped with
random number generators. It wasn't really marketed on a national basis until the mid-70s.

--- "Rick Teverbaugh" wrote:
> I was playing SOM in the mid-60s and I don't remember Ball Park Baseball around then.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5067 Wed Feb 4, 2009 10:14 am
"Joseph Runde" <joerunde(at)comcast.net> drjoe916
Re: Origin of 50-50 system
Charles Sidman's initial work was done in the 1950s, before Strat came out; however, according to Glen Guzzo's
book, Richman was developing his approach in the early 50s as well. So I think it's more a matter of a good concept
coming to fruition in two creative minds at roughly the same time. It doesn't seem that either game influence
the other in this respect.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5068 Wed Feb 4, 2009 1:29 pm
"Eric Lutzker" <ericlutzker(at)comcast.net>
anyone know anything about this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1967-BASEBA ... 0313092505

i'm thinking of bidding on it but have no idea how much. i'm not calling dibs or anything so don't feel constrained
if it looks juicy to you. alls fair, etc. still i would like to know more. i'm guessing it's a pretty simple 2d6 generic.
it's not on boardgamegeek as far as i can tell.
thanks,
e
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5069 Wed Feb 4, 2009 5:28 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Origin of 50-50 system
Hi Joe, thanks for those comments! Your hypothesis is a very plausible one. Certainly there's no doubt
*Strat-O-Matic* hit the market long, long before *Ball Park,* so if the debate is which *commercially
produced* game was fist to use a 50/50 system, there essentially is no debate. If the question is "who first
*thought of* a 50/50 system, any claim that the concept for some obscure indie predated Strat in that regard
is equally difficult to prove or refute -- but the burden of proof, it seems to us, would be on the indie game
that didn't hit the market until sixteen years after Strat's debut.

We're a little surprised (we shouldn't be, given the wealth of game knowledge among the members of this Forum),
and certainly pleased, to find that at least several guys here are so well acquainted with *Ball Park,* about which
we here in the front office know little more of than its name and date of issue. Is Charles Sidman still alive?
Maybe an interview would clear some things up. Anyone have contact information?
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Joseph Runde" wrote:
<< Charles Sidman's initial work was done in the 1950s, before Strat came out; however, according to Glen Guzzo's
book, Richman was developing his approach in the early 50s as well. So I think it's more a matter of a good
concept coming to fruition in two creative minds at roughly the same time. It doesn't seem that either game
influence the other in this respect.
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5070 Wed Feb 4, 2009 5:52 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: anyone know anything about this?
Howdy Eric,thanks for the question! *The Baseball Game* -- actually by Syl-Le, not "Styl-le" as the
auction description has it -- is an interesting, good-looking generic that's fairly scarce 42 years down the road.
We've seen only three sell on-line in the past five or six years, although it's likely we've missed one or two.
As a post-War generic, prices have been very low -- $10. with some wear and tear, closer to $20. in really
nice shape.

Gameplay is actually a multi-step pitch-by-pitch procedure -- the pitching/fielding side throws the dice first
to determine the result of the pitch, then the side at bat throws to determine the result of the swing.
If necessary, as shown in the play results charts bordering the playing field, the team in the field then
throws again to determine the result of difficult chances or baserunning plays. It's not quite as unwieldy
as that might sound, especially if you're not playing solitaire. A nice addition to one's collection if you're
looking for a game with a pitch-by-pitch mechanic, and you might have to wait a year or more to see another.
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Eric Lutzker" wrote:
<< http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1967-BASEBA ... 0313092505
i'm thinking of bidding on it but have no idea how much. i'm not calling dibs or anything so don't feel constrained
if it looks juicy to you. alls fair, etc. still i would like to know more. i'm guessing it's a pretty simple 2d6 generic.
it's not on boardgamegeek as far as i can tell. thanks...
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5071 Wed Feb 4, 2009 7:25 pm
"Dayton Payne" <dcpayne125(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Origin of 50-50 system
There is a Ball Park forum on Delphi that Charles Sidman regularly visits and posts to.
Here is the link to the Ball Park forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/ballparkbb

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> Hi Joe, thanks for those comments! Your hypothesis is a very plausible one. Certainly there's no doubt
> *Strat-O-Matic* hit the market long, long before *Ball Park,* so if the debate is which *commercially
> produced* game was fist to use a 50/50 system, there essentially is no debate. If the question is "who first
> *thought of* a 50/50 system, any claim that the concept for some obscure indie predated Strat
> in that regard is equally difficult to prove or refute -- but the burden of proof, it seems to us, would be
> on the indie game that didn't hit the market until sixteen years after Strat's debut.
> We're a little surprised (we shouldn't be, given the wealth of game knowledge among the members of this Forum),
> and certainly pleased, to find that at least several guys here are so well acquainted with *Ball Park,* about which
> we here in the front office know little more of than its name and date of issue. Is Charles Sidman still alive?
> Maybe an interview would clear some things up. Anyone have contact information?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5072 Wed Feb 4, 2009 7:35 pm
"momike_99" <momike_99(at)yahoo.com>
help me find this baseball board game
In the early 1970's I had a fantastic baseball board game. The company also put out a hockey & basketball
version. The baseball game had a feature that I have never seen since- a plastic "pitcher" that the DEF player
picked a pitch, then set high, low, inside, outside. The OFF could swing R/L high, low, or take or bunt.
The two(pitch&batter) were then lined up to decide hit, strike, ball, etc. It had a colorful diamond layout,
lineup/scorecards, neat cardboard scoreboard, but did NOT use real player stats.
Anybody remember this?
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5073 Wed Feb 4, 2009 9:46 pm
"Ralph Bean" <reviewboy1(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Origin of 50-50 system
I'm the Curious George who started this discussion.

While I've played both Strat and Ball Park, I was unaware that Charles Sidman developed a prototype
of his game so early (thanks, Joe!) although in retrospect it doesn't seem surprising, since many of these
game designers seem born to it.

I was more interested in who first had the concept, as opposed to the first commercially available game.
The reason that this interests me is that the 50-50 system would not have occurred to me, so I thought that
it was a remarkable innovation. I've wondered how a game designer would have developed this idea. Perhaps
he (either *man) observed the 'batter only' games of the 1st half of the 20th century and pondered a 'pitcher
only' game, but extended the idea to alternate between the two. Or, perhaps the designer had taken a
stats class and applied a sampling concept to baseball board game design. Since H. Richman was a math student
in college, he might have gotten the concept from a stats class.

I know less about C. Sidman's background, although I know that he was a history prof. He may have taken
a stats class. Or he may have had a different muse.

To make my motivation clear, I'm not so much trying to assign credit as to imagine how the concept would have
arose. As Joe suggested, the concept could have germinated independently in two different cerebrums.

If I get brave, I'll post a question to Charles on his forum asking how the idea occurred to him.
Thanks for the history lesson, friends.
Ralph

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> Hi Joe, thanks for those comments! Your hypothesis is a very plausible one. Certainly there's no doubt
> *Strat-O-Matic* hit the market long, long before *Ball Park,* so if the debate is which *commercially
> produced* game was fist to use a 50/50 system, there essentially is no debate. If the question is "who first
> *thought of* a 50/50 system, any claim that the concept for some obscure indie predated Strat
> in that regard is equally difficult to prove or refute -- but the burden of proof, it seems to us, would be
> on the indie game that didn't hit the market until sixteen years after Strat's debut.
> We're a little surprised (we shouldn't be, given the wealth of game knowledge among the members of this Forum),
> and certainly pleased, to find that at least several guys here are so well acquainted with *Ball Park,* about which
> we here in the front office know little more of than its name and date of issue. Is Charles Sidman still alive?
> Maybe an interview would clear some things up. Anyone have contact information?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5074 Wed Feb 4, 2009 10:15 pm
"(WD0MR) Mark Reger" <regerm(at)windstream.net> lambeau_us
Re: help me find this baseball board game
I think it was all-pro baseball.,, The game I am thinking of, had a checkerboard field and the players
could move a certain number of squares and finally get the ball.. Does this sound like it?
Maybe this is it..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ALL-PRO-OFFICIAL-AN ... 0333670728

--- "momike_99" wrote:
> In the early 1970's I had a fantastic baseball board game. The company also put out a hockey & basketball
> version. The baseball game had a feature that I have never seen since- a plastic "pitcher" that the DEF player
> picked a pitch, then set high, low, inside, outside. The OFF could swing R/L high, low, or take or bunt.
> The two(pitch&batter) were then lined up to decide hit, strike, ball, etc. It had a colorful diamond layout,
> lineup/scorecards, neat cardboard scoreboard, but did NOT use real player stats. Anybody remember this?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5075 Thu Feb 5, 2009 8:23 am
"Joseph Runde" <joerunde(at)comcast.net> drjoe916
Re: re: Origin of 50-50 system
All--
So far as commercial availability is concerned, do we count the fact that Ball Park was being played in mid sixties?
By 1971, anyone could play it -- if you happened to go to a bar/restaurant known as the Ball Park out in Kansas.
In fact, it was right near the University of Kansas where a young student named Bill James played the game
regularly. He notes in one of his essays (1984 Baseball Abstract) that it was in playing the game that he began
to learn how an offense was put together.

The game developed and evolved over the years, just like Strat and PtP/DLB, but it was around in the 60s and
people were playing it. Check out the Ball Park fan site (http://ball-park-baseball-fan-site.com/) for more
information.
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5076 Thu Feb 5, 2009 8:24 am
"momike_99" <momike_99(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: help me find this baseball board game
that's right- the runners could move a sq at a time to advance or try to beat out a hit.

--- "momike_99" wrote:
> In the early 1970's I had a fantastic baseball board game. The company also put out a hockey & basketball
> version. The baseball game had a feature that I have never seen since- a plastic "pitcher" that the DEF player
> picked a pitch, then set high, low, inside, outside. The OFF could swing R/L high, low, or take or bunt.
> The two(pitch&batter) were then lined up to decide hit, strike, ball, etc. It had a colorful diamond layout,
> lineup/scorecards, neat cardboard scoreboard, but did NOT use real player stats. Anybody remember this?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5077 Thu Feb 5, 2009 8:17 pm
"mzjr66" <mzjr66(at)yahoo.com>
Time Travel Baseball Game
I would like to know if anybody has a set of rules and player cards I can get a copy of or purchase.
This was one of the easy and most realistic games ever made. Very interested in getting in touch whith
someone possesing this game!
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5078 Fri Feb 6, 2009 12:42 am
"Dayton Payne" <dcpayne125(at)yahoo.com>
Re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Try Tabletop-sports for the rules:
http://www.tabletop-sports.com/modules. ... ad&sid=123

--- "mzjr66" wrote:
> I would like to know if anybody has a set of rules and player cards I can get a copy of or purchase.
> This was one of the easy and most realistic games ever made. Very interested in getting in touch whith
> someone possesing this game!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5079 Fri Feb 6, 2009 2:14 am
"dkscpa" <dkscpa(at)yahoo.com>
Re: Time Travel Baseball Game
There are lots of cards and I believe a set of rules at the tabletop-sports website.
Check here...
http://www.tabletop-sports.com/modules. ... ad&sid=123

--- "mzjr66" wrote:
> I would like to know if anybody has a set of rules and player cards I can get a copy of or purchase.
> This was one of the easy and most realistic games ever made. Very interested in getting in touch whith
> someone possesing this game!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5080 Fri Feb 6, 2009 10:49 am
"Mike" <mikereen(at)optonline.net> tycobb9
Re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Try here:
http://www.tabletop-sports.com/modules. ... ad&sid=123

--- "mzjr66" wrote:
> I would like to know if anybody has a set of rules and player cards I can get a copy of or purchase.
> This was one of the easy and most realistic games ever made. Very interested in getting in touch whith
> someone possesing this game!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5081 Thu Feb 5, 2009 12:35 pm
"Gene Newman" <belinyoh(at)charter.net> uofa57
Re: Time Travel Baseball Game
I knew the maker of the game several years ago and have his Tennis game. I lost his email address
in a computer crash and this old brain can't remember his name. I did find his website address in
my "Favorites", but I just checked and it is no longer up. His company was R&A Associates but
a search didn't turn it up either.

You can try his snail mail address:
R&Associates
159 Newark St.
Suite 4D
Hoboken, NJ 07030

If you write to him, please tell him that Gene Newman sent you.
Gene

--- "mzjr66" wrote:
> I would like to know if anybody has a set of rules and player cards I can get a copy of or purchase.
> This was one of the easy and most realistic games ever made. Very interested in getting in touch whith
> someone possesing this game!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5082 Fri Feb 6, 2009 12:57 pm
"kekasell" <kekasell(at)q.com>
Re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Jeff Downey's web-site tabletop-sports.com may have what you are looking for. I think they have the rules,
charts, strategy guides, teams, etc. for this game. Just go to the downloads section, look under baseball games,
and there should be an entire section for Time Travel Baseball. Let me know if this is what you are looking for.
Ken

--- "mzjr66" wrote:
> I would like to know if anybody has a set of rules and player cards I can get a copy of or purchase.
> This was one of the easy and most realistic games ever made. Very interested in getting in touch whith
> someone possesing this game!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5083 Fri Feb 6, 2009 2:00 pm
"curt young" <curtyoung13(at)hotmail.com>
Origin of 50-50 system
your honor:
...would have ARISEN. [use past participle with the 'helping verb' "have".] hey, is plural of cerebrum cerebra???
lyle13

ps -- what i really need 2 know is the frequency of CD and BD calls in the FAC deck in latter versions of SP.
in my 1979 version, 1978 season cards, the Z comes up 4 times, the CD and BD 17 times each, out of 389 'cards'.
from this i m finding that great defense comes up very seldom, although, as advertised in the rules of 1979,
results in crushing DPs often. using lindsey's 1963 chart of probabilities of each of the 24 base-out situations,
the p[bases empty] = 0.553, with the catcher, CD rank comes into play only 0.00226 of the time with a CD of 0.
each increase in rank increases the p by 0.002385, so that even with a CD of 2 [max value back in my day],
the catcher will only affect the play less than 1% of the time. of those plays, about 2/3 of them would have
been an out n e way, diminishing the damage a bit. my ultimate aim is 2 b able 2 give a number [of spaces
on the 8x8 matrix, or points of batting average or OBA] 4 each player CD rank at each position. i have the
CD tables from the updated rules of sp, but i need 2 know, if u know, the number of cards in the newer FAC deck,
and on how many of these the Z, CD, and BD call occurs, instead of a PB number. can u help?
looking at the newer CD chart, the effect of good defense has been watered down a bunch.
there r even errors on the defense now after a CD is called! as b4, there r quite a few non-results, too.

--- "reviewboy1" wrote:
> I'm the Curious George who started this discussion. While I've played both Strat and Ball Park, I was unaware
> that Charles Sidman developed a prototype of his game so early (thanks, Joe!) although in retrospect
> it doesn't seem surprising, since many of these game designers seem born to it. I was more interested in
> who first had the concept, as opposed to the first commercially available game. The reason that this
> interests me is that the 50-50 system would not have occurred to me, so I thought that it was a remarkable
> innovation. I've wondered how a game designer would have developed this idea.... To make my motivation clear,
> I'm not so much trying to assign credit as to imagine how the concept would have arose. As Joe suggested,
> the concept could have germinated independently in two different cerebrums. If I get brave, I'll post a question
> to Charles on his forum asking how the idea occurred to him. Thanks for the history lesson, friends....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5084 Thu Feb 5, 2009 4:31 pm
"Gene Newman" <belinyoh(at)charter.net> uofa57
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Hiya Ken,
I'd like to add to my original reply that, having spent almost my entire adult life in Asia (primarily Japan) until
early 1993, I was fascinated with his Sumo game as well. Just as with the tennis game, the sumo game
could not been any easier to play and still come up with realistic results.

You doing anything with ASB these days?
Gene

--- "kekasell" wrote:
> Jeff Downey's web-site tabletop-sports.com may have what you are looking for. I think they have the rules,
> charts, strategy guides, teams, etc. for this game....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5085 Fri Feb 6, 2009 5:19 pm
"Ralph Bean" <reviewboy1(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Origin of 50-50 system
I plead guilty to grammatical transgressions.

I'm pretty sure that I would not have made those mistakes if my (Old School) English teacher had been
standing next to my keyboard, ruler at the ready, at always.
Ralph

--- "curt young" wrote:
> your honor:
> ...would have ARISEN. [use past participle with the 'helping verb' "have".] hey, is plural of cerebrum cerebra??? ...
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5086 Sat Feb 7, 2009 12:16 pm
"kekasell" <kekasell(at)q.com>
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Hay Gene,
Actually, yes, I am still playing ASB. I am in the process of Streamlining a pitching system
I cannabalized from Avalon Hill's game Superstar Baseabll to use w/ ASB...I am also working on
a fielding and baserunning-advancement sytem using a combination of the fielding chart from
Jeff Downey's game, Hardball Wars, and the modifications Nick Panos made to the K-O disc.
Still need some play-testing, however.

When using the Superstar Baseball pitching system, I have to modify the walk totals on the batter's disc
to accomodate those who walk more than usual and those less than usual. I use the walk tendencies
from the pitcher "card" so the walk totals on the batter's disc needs to be tweeked or I will get a large number
of walks. Since I create my own player discs, this is not a problem, especially with the fine disc creation programs
on your web-site. It's not perfect, but it works. I still need some play-testing, however.

I use the D cells on the Superstar pitcher "card," and certain spins on the K-O disc to consult the individual
defense on Jeff Downey's Hardball Wars chart. I determine who the ball was hit to by sight on the disc.
Previously, I used a modified Strat chart I downloaded, but I found Jeff's chart a little better. I can probably
also modify this Strat chart for those who do not want to purchase Hardball Wars, so maybe that can become
a future project.

The biggest problem with the Avalon Hill pitching system, besides the use of the funky dice, is that it does
not take into account those pitchers with low SO totals, the so-called -K pitchers. By far, the best pitching,
base-running and fielding sytems I found for ASB is Nick Panos.' But it is only available for a limited number of
teams, and, not to begrudge Nick because he is a fine man and has been quite generous in sharing the 2008
All-Star team, he chooses to keep his formulas private, especially for the pitching discs. I long for the day
that Nick shares his formulas or at least makes them avaialable for purchase. Until then, I will use this
Jerry-rigged sytem I developed.

Out of all the tabletop baseball games I own and play (and they are extensive), I still enjoy ASB the most.
It's nostalga, familiarity, ease of play, the visual experience...I just keep coming back to it. ASB was the
1st tabletop sports game I ever played, and I will likley keep on playing it, even when I finally become too old
and feeble and can't spin the disc anymore. And discovering your group was Nirvana!!
Ken

--- "kekasell" wrote:
> Jeff Downey's web-site tabletop-sports.com may have what you are looking for. I think they have the rules,
> charts, strategy guides, teams, etc. for this game....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5087 Sat Feb 7, 2009 3:17 pm
"curt young" <curtyoung13(at)hotmail.com>
Re: re: Origin of 50-50 system
4 twelfth grade english i had mr boyle, known as father boyle since he was a seminary dropout.
he knew grammar so well, and i did not, that he would not respond 2 a question or answer from a student
until he/she corrected any grammatical error. sometimes he would not respond 2 my reply until i corrected
my 2nd error as well. i learned a bunch that year.

--- "reviewboy1" wrote:
> I plead guilty to grammatical transgressions. I'm pretty sure that I would not have made those mistakes
> if my (Old School) English teacher had been standing next to my keyboard, ruler at the ready, at always.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5088 Sun Feb 8, 2009 4:51 am
"jballgameca" <j.r.horn1(at)shaw.ca>
Re: The name of Time Travel's creator
Hi Gene,
Stanley Frohlich was the name of the fellow who created Time Travel. I bought my game
directly from him when he was clearing out his remaining inventory almost 10 years ago.
John

--- "Gene Newman" wrote:
> I knew the maker of the game several years ago and have his Tennis game. I lost his email address
> in a computer crash and this old brain can't remember his name. I did find his website address in
> my "Favorites", but I just checked and it is no longer up. His company was R&A Associates but
> a search didn't turn it up either....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5089 Sat Feb 7, 2009 3:31 pm
"Gene Newman" <belinyoh(at)charter.net> uofa57
Re: re: The name of Time Travel's creator
Thanks, John.

--- "jballgameca" wrote:
> ... Stanley Frohlich was the name of the fellow who created Time Travel. I bought my game
> directly from him when he was clearing out his remaining inventory almost 10 years ago.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5090 Sun Feb 8, 2009 7:46 pm
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
anybody with experience rating Baseball Manager teams?
If there's anybody who has any experience rating players for Baseball Manager, please contact me here or at:
rickert46015(at)yahoo.com

Thanks
Rick T.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5091 Mon Feb 9, 2009 12:01 am
"Steve Cushman" <scushman(at)comcast.net> scushman111
Re: anybody with experience rating Baseball Manager teams?
Rick....what is it you need to know?
Steve

--- "Rick Teverbaugh" wrote:
> If there's anybody who has any experience rating players for Baseball Manager, please contact me here or at:
> rickert46015(at)yahoo.com
> Thanks...
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5092 Mon Feb 9, 2009 8:24 am
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: anybody with experience rating Baseball Manager teams?
When a batter is rated as an I or J for power there are special circumstances. With an I you subtract 4
from the calculation. If that makes it a negative number, you change the power letter to an H. But do you
use the home run number that was calculated before you subtracted the 4? The same situation for a J
when you subtract 5 and change the power letter to 0.

Thank you for the response.
Rick

--- "Steve Cushman" wrote:
> ....what is it you need to know?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5093 Sun Feb 8, 2009 5:07 pm
"Gene Newman" <belinyoh(at)charter.net> uofa57
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Hello Ken,
Thanks for the nice reply. Although, as you know, I have always preferred the simplicity of ASB in its original form
with only a few minor modifications, I am appreciative and amazed at the work folks like you, Nick Panos and
a few others do to add more elements to the game. That and the generosity of other members who share their
player discs and improvements with the group are certainly the key elements that keep the forum alive and kickin'.
We are now up to 470 members. Not shabby for a forum dedicated to one simple little game. The nicest thing of all
is that, in view of the many different approaches our members take to the play of ASB, with exceptions that
don't even need all of the fingers of one hand to count, we are remarkably trouble free.
Thanks for the part you play in it.
Gene

--- "kekasell" wrote:
> ...Actually, yes, I am still playing ASB. I am in the process of Streamlining a pitching system
> I cannabalized from Avalon Hill's game Superstar Baseabll to use w/ ASB...I am also working on a fielding
> and baserunning-advancement sytem using a combination of the fielding chart from Jeff Downey's game,
> Hardball Wars, and the modifications Nick Panos made to the K-O disc. Still need some play-testing, however.
> ...
> Out of all the tabletop baseball games I own and play (and they are extensive), I still enjoy ASB the most.
> It's nostalga, familiarity, ease of play, the visual experience...I just keep coming back to it. ASB was the
> 1st tabletop sports game I ever played, and I will likley keep on playing it, even when I finally become too old
> and feeble and can't spin the disc anymore. And discovering your group was Nirvana!!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5094 Mon Feb 9, 2009 7:24 pm
"mzjr66" <mzjr66(at)yahoo.com>
Re: The name of Time Travel's creator
Is there a away to contact Stanley Frohlic about makeing cards for current players?

--- "jballgameca" wrote:
> ... Stanley Frohlich was the name of the fellow who created Time Travel. I bought my game
> directly from him when he was clearing out his remaining inventory almost 10 years ago.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5095 Mon Feb 9, 2009 8:31 pm
"jballgameca" <j.r.horn1(at)shaw.ca>
Re: Time Travel Baseball Game
I just found this link to Time Travel's patent by Googling the game:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4261569.html

John
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5096 Mon Feb 9, 2009 11:07 pm
"Rene" <edog9(at)maine.rr.com> wrl1901
Expansion Owners needed, Strat-o-matic Computer Game
The Way Retro League has been playing ball since 1999.

We have played 1951-1972 as well as 1901-1923. That's 44 seasons or so in the books. We are currently drafting
for 1973. Shortly, we will be having an expansion draft for 4 new teams that will bring this league up to 16 teams
in 1974. The expansion draft will allow the 4 new teams to cherry pick some of the best players from the other
teams through a system of protecting only 2 players per team for 1 round, 7 players for 4 rounds and then
15 players for the final 10 rounds. Then your team will have one of the 1st 4 picks of the 1974 Amateur Draft.
This means you will essentially be in a lottery to get George Brett or Robin Yount among others. It will be done
fairly so that if you are #4 in the expansion draft, you will be #1 in the 1974 Amateur Draft. We have already
had one successful expansion draft in this league.

We are a fun league with a lot of neat features. Champions leagues, encyclopedias, yearly awards in many
categories, votes for MVP, Pitcher of the Year and Owner of the Year. We will also have a Hall of Fame vote
in coming months.

Please contact me if you'd like to take part in this journey to eventually become a present day league.
We play about 3-4 seasons a year. Please contact me with any questions.

Read our constitution at http://www.geocities.com/wrl1901
Rene Bernard
edog9(at)maine.rr.com
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5097 Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:26 am
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Baseballgames update, 2-09-09
Hiya fellers! Pardon the interruption, but we're way past due, as usual, with the monthly State of the Website
address. The delay this time is due to our preparing a new feature for ya, which we'd hoped to have on-line
by last week -- but we've run into a small but obstinate informational roadblock that's temporarily prevented
our completing it. We're still hoping to have it up now before the month is out. As a teaser, we'll tell you
it's something along the lines of the page on the history of Warren games that we put up several weeks ago
[ http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/BbWarren.htm ].

Let's wait no longer, though, to extend the customary welcome to the new members of the group who joined up
in the previous month -- say hello to these January enrollees: sacfly62, tmick56, concrete20001, kbdb5417,
jclough37, bullcreel98, ptpbob9, ronhartmusic, greg.galliger, mlamone, nus6, baseballtourist, gagnon_shirley,
rr2728, verner1166, daniel.garlick, and jsokol235. Nice to see you all here! If you haven't yet done so, please
do familiarize yourselves with our Forum Policy before you post
[ http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/Forumpolicy.htm ]
-- then take some time to peruse the searchable Message archives, Files, Links, and Photo albums, and of course
our home site and the features there [ http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/ ].
Stick around, say hi, let us know how you found us (seriously!), and don't hesitate to chime in with
whatever questions, comments, or news that you might have!

Actually, one technical note in that regard -- some of you may already have noticed that the "search" function in
the Message archives in in fact *not* working at the moment. It's been a persistent problem for a few weeks now,
and we've already twice contacted the Yahoo! techs about that. They told us that they were aware of the
problem (one not exclusive to this Forum) and that a fix should be forthcoming soon. That was a couple of weeks
ago, so keep your fingers crossed, but don't hang by your thumbs...

Also, the routine but always relevant advisory here, yet again, to both newcomers and veteran members of
the group -- please do make sure your Yahoo! membership has you registered / subscribed with a currently active
e-mail address. We never thought, when we started this little club almost five years ago, that we'd ever attract
more than fifty members -- but we're very close to having a thousand folks in here now, and if we ever hit
that magic number, we want to make sure we reach it honestly, and not with any substantial amount of
dead memberships, which we occasionally check for and eliminate. If you're signed in with an inert or
disconnected e-mail address, we have to assume you're no longer really on board, and, regrettably, your
membership will eventually be deleted. So please do keep your status active, fellers -- just click on that
"Edit Membership" link above the Forum title if you need to update anything.

The big news in January, at least for us here in the front office, was the appearance, in the Winter issue of
the *AGPC Quarterly,* of our article on the history of tabletop baseball and the Hall of Fame exhibition of
member Mark Cooper's world's-best collection of antique baseball games, amply illustrated with our own photos
and those provided by our friend at the HOF, Senior Curator Tom Shieber. We sorta hoped there might have
been at least a modicum of interest in that piece, here among the membership, but evidently only we and Mark
deemed it noteworthy. The prestigious AGPC can be found on-line at [ http://www.agpc.org/ ].

Speaking of links, we've informally partnered with *Smorgy's Games Database,* an indispensible resource featuring
4000+ pages of searchable info on over 2100 games and more than 400 publishers, downloadable rules for over
600 games, a vendor directory, links, articles, histories, photos, and way more. For those of you with an interest
in antique or modern games in general, in addition to tabletop baseball, the "SmorgasBoard of Games"
[ http://www.smorgasboardofgames.com/ ] is something you should definitely bookmark. Webmaster Chris --
"Smorgy" -- is a longtime on-line acquaintance and a fine fella. Your *Baseball Games* group is currently
the front-page feature there, and there'll be more in the months ahead.

We've still got those new Mystery Games, to which we alluded a while back, queued up to run by you as soon as
there's any lull in conversation. Don't forget, too, that the "Wha'd Ya Get?" album in the Forum's Photos section
is there for you to post your own mystery games, new acquisitions, or anything else of pertinent interest in
a Show 'n Tell context. We just picked up a very large, very peculiar, and evidently very scarce late-1930s
number ourselves, but we know at least a few of you guys have recently obtained some nifty old games too,
so show 'em off, eh?

Let's keep up the chatter, boys!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/
_____________________________________________________________

To reply to a message or post a new message at Baseballgames,
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/ on the web
and click on "Post" in the lefthand menu, or simply send your
e-mail to baseballgames(at)yahoogroups.com
_____________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5098 Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:30 am
"scushman111" <scushman(at)comcast.net> scushman111
Re: anybody with experience rating Baseball Manager teams?
Rick....that's a good question. It is a bit confusing as are a few other formulas. My take has always been
that if H needs to change to I or J to zero (because of the -4/-5 rule) than use the HR number before the
-4/-5 calculation.

The -4/-5 rule seems to be necessary just to bring down some overly exaggerated HR numbers with I's or J's.
If you used the negative = zero rule at this point, any time a letter was changed because of this alculation....
every one of those changes would have to result in a HR number of zero. That didn't make sense to me
considering the HR number must have been low enough to begin with.

Hope this helps!
Steve

--- "Rick Teverbaugh" wrote:
> When a batter is rated as an I or J for power there are special circumstances. With an I you subtract 4
> from the calculation. If that makes it a negative number, you change the power letter to an H. But do you
> use the home run number that was calculated before you subtracted the 4? The same situation for a J
> when you subtract 5 and change the power letter to 0. Thank you for the response.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5099 Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:37 am
"Rick Teverbaugh" <rickert46015(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: anybody with experience rating Baseball Manager teams?
That's the idea I had and the one I will employ unless John or somebody else convinces me otherwise.

So far I've only done 1 team, the 77 Dodgers. I will be doing more. If there are any players of the game here
I can share those teams. I've already posted that one team at: tabletop-sports.com.
Rick T.

--- "scushman111" wrote:
> ...that' s a good question. It is a bit confusing as are a few other formulas. My take has always been that
> if H needs to change to I or J to zero (because of the -4/-5 rule) than use the HR number before the
> -4/-5 calculation.
> The -4/-5 rule seems to be necessary just to bring down some overly exaggerated HR numbers with I's or J's.
> If you used the negative = zero rule at this point, any time a letter was changed because of this calculation.
> ...every one of those changes would have to result in a HR number of zero. That didn't make sense to me
> considering the HR number must have been low enough to begin with....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5100 Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:33 pm
"dogpoundal62" <dogpoundal62(at)yahoo.com>
baseball game
I am searching for a tabletop baseball game I played as a kid in the 1950's. I do not know the name of the game
or the manufacturer but here is a brief description. When you lift the lid on the box, a baseball diamond appears.
There was a red plastic knob where the pitcher's mound was and you would spin it and then lift a batter to reveal
what the pitch was. It also had plastic players on the bases in the infield and also umpires. All of the players,
etc. would reveal something concerning the game when they were lifted. If anyone has any knowledge of
this game, I would be tremendously appreciative of the information.
Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5101 Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:05 am
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: baseball game
Hi Al, welcome to the group and thanks for your question! By some coincidence, another new member asked
a very similar question just last month, so we'll tell you what we told him:

What you've described sounds very much like *Baseball - Approved by Little League for Little Leaguers,*
a 1958 product of Milton Bradley and, despite what the title might imply, actually a quite sophisticated "generic."
If indeed that's the game you remember playing -- and if you're looking to reacquire one -- the good news is that
it's readily available on eBay. Examples show up there for sale or auction at least every month or two, and are
very affordable. We've seen it sell as high as $75., but overall it averages under $25., with sharp like-new examples
typically going for $35.-$40. and more weatherbeaten or slightly incomplete ones often going for yard-sale prices.

You might also want to know that there are three subtly different versions of the cover graphics on the 15"-square
yellow-and-red box lid -- the most frequently seen uses the title we mentioned and shows an adult batter
swinging away, a second is identical but for the addition of the subtitle "and their fathers," and a third, also using
that subtitle, substitutes an adolescent trio of pitcher, batter, and catcher. All three editions are the same inside
and play identically, and in terms of price, there doesn't seem to be any premium placed on any one edition over
the others.

We hope that helps, and good luck finding your game!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "dogpoundal62" wrote:
<< I am searching for a tabletop baseball game I played as a kid in the 1950's. I do not know the name of the game
or the manufacturer but here is a brief description. When you lift the lid on the box, a baseball diamond appears.
There was a red plastic knob where the pitcher's mound was and you would spin it and then lift a batter to reveal
what the pitch was. It also had plastic players on the bases in the infield and also umpires. All of the players,
etc. would reveal something concerning the game when they were lifted. If anyone has any knowledge of
this game, I would be tremendously appreciative of the information. Thanks.
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5102 Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:53 am
"mzjr66" <mzjr66(at)yahoo.com>
Time Travel gamble cards
Does anybody know what the trainer,pitching coach, joker,wildcard cards in the gamble deck mean and
how are they played or intergrated in the origanol game? Is thier a set of rules or instructions I am missing?
I have all the charts and rules posted on table top games.com. Also what was the last year player cards
were printed;1985?
JR.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5103 Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:11 am
"Robert Henkel" <jagracer55(at)yahoo.com>
Time Travel
Does anyone have any more managers cards for Time Travel?
Bob H
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5104 Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:59 pm
"Jeff Downey" <jeff(at)tabletop-sports.com> cdowney1972
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
I've got good news for you.
http://www.tabletop-sports.com/index.ph ... =8509#8509

--- "mzjr66" wrote:
> I would like to know if anybody has a set of rules and player cards I can get a copy of or purchase.
> This was one of the easy and most realistic games ever made. Very interested in getting in touch whith
> someone possesing this game!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5105 Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:28 pm
"laura lawson" <lauraj400(at)gmail.com>
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Jeff,how do I register for your forum?

--- "Jeff Downey" wrote:
> I've got good news for you.
> http://www.tabletop-sports.com/index.ph ... =8509#8509
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5106 Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:33 pm
"Manuel Zavala Jr" <mzjr66(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Jeff, thats great news. I have most of the original pieces. If i can help in any way let me know.
I hope you will stick to the classic look. Also, have you considered adding a trigger play for steroid era?
Let me know the progress and release on this.
jr

--- "Jeff Downey" wrote:
> I've got good news for you.
> http://www.tabletop-sports.com/index.ph ... =8509#8509
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5107 Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:34 pm
"Tom Stillman" <giantsfan_94121(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
I'm in a cranky mood:
a) The mother of those octuplets is going to get free help to the tune of $130,000 a month
b) I've spent the day applying for a bunch of jobs
c) The world is full of crooks
d) This Downey guy can't even spell "Baseball."
When you click on the link from Tabletop Board Games, the first entry says,
"Basball offerings by Downey Games
I offered to work as a proofreader for him.
Morons!
I realize this may not go through but it was cathartic to bitch about it!
Tom Stillman

--- "Jeff Downey" wrote:
> I've got good news for you.
> http://www.tabletop-sports.com/index.ph ... =8509#8509
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5108 Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:32 pm
meeker1996 <emeek19(at)aol.com>
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Although the "roid" era is "part" of baseball's history, I am not really in favor of it.?
However, since this is Time Travel, where there is 2100 Century baseball rules, heck, for hilarity sake,
lets incorporate it.? Babe Ruth on 'Roids'... I see a 100 plus home run season for him... As for Minnie Minoso,
if he played in the steroid era, he would clout a ton of dingers and he rarely ever hit one...
I see comedy in that one.

All seriosness aside, it is great that Time Travel is making a return.? I have a copy of the game that was
given to me in 1980 and its an enjoyable and fun game to play.? I do not know right at the moment
what cards I have but I think I have a couple years worth...

Thanks,
Edward R. Meek

--- "Manuel Zavala Jr" wrote:
> Jeff, thats great news. I have most of the original pieces. If i can help in any way let me know.
> I hope you will stick to the classic look. Also, have you considered adding a trigger play?for steroid era?
> Let me know the progress and release on this.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5109 Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:05 am
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Not so's any newcomers to the Forum should get the wrong idea and think insults and the flaming of
fellow members, contrary to Forum Policy [ http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/ForumPolicy.htm ],
is allowed in here, both Tom and Jeff are highly valued veteran members of the group, we read Tom's tirade
as at least partly tongue-in-cheek, and hey, misspellings is funny. So is the omission of closing quotation marks,
which may be costly on applications for proofreader jobs!
;-)
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Tom Stillman" wrote:
<< I'm in a cranky mood:
a) The mother of those octuplets is going to get free help to the tune of $130,000 a month
b) I've spent the day applying for a bunch of jobs
c) The world is full of crooks
d) This Downey guy can't even spell "Baseball."
When you click on the link from Tabletop Board Games, the first entry says,
"Basball offerings by Downey Games
I offered to work as a proofreader for him.
Morons!
I realize this may not go through but it was cathartic to bitch about it!
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5110 Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:18 am
"johnvitz" <angelusmusic(at)aol.com>
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Butch,
Go easy on Tom after all he has been through. Through it all, he remains a Giant's Fan.
Tom. I feel your pain!
John V

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> Not so's any newcomers to the Forum should get the wrong idea and think insults and the flaming
> of fellow members, contrary to Forum Policy [ http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/ForumPolicy.htm ],
> is allowed in here, both Tom and Jeff are highly valued veteran members of the group, we read Tom's tirade
> as at least partly tongue-in-cheek, and hey, misspellings is funny. So is the omission of closing quotation marks,
> which may be costly on applications for proofreader jobs!
> ;-)
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5111 Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:26 pm
"Henri Roca" <rocwwm2001(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Jeff, the link on your announcement regarding Doc Dawson's baseball game doen't work.
When the address is entered and clicked the screen doesn't show anything about Doc's baseball game.
Could you investigate and correct , if needed. Great site, Jeff, all of your recreations are appreciated.
Many thanks
Regards
Henri

--- "Jeff Downey" wrote:
> I've got good news for you.
> http://www.tabletop-sports.com/index.ph ... =8509#8509
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5112 Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:34 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Tabletop-Sports .com
Hey fellers, just a general FYI -- comments, questions, corrections, and suggestions regarding
Jeff's excellent site and forum can (and kinda should) be posted on the appropriate forum at his site
[ http://www.tabletop-sports.com/ ], or sent directly to Jeff himself at [ jeff(at)tabletop-sports.com ].
Thanks!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Tom Stillman" wrote:
> ... When you click on the link from Tabletop Board Games, the first entry says,
> "Basball offerings by Downey Games ...
>

--- "Henri Roca" wrote:
> Jeff, the link on your announcement regarding Doc Dawson's baseball game doen't work.
> When the address is entered and clicked the screen doesn't show anything about Doc's baseball game....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5113 Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:38 am
"Jeff Downey" <jeff(at)tabletop-sports.com> cdowney1972
Doc Dawson's Full Season Baseball
Doc Dawson's Full Season Baseball is available once again.
Dr. Bryan Dawson has improved the game, and is offering a few seasons for free.
There is a donation request page.

The link to the game is: http://www.uu.edu/personal/bdawson/ddfsbweb/index.htm

I have no affiliation with the game. It's just one that I found enjoyable in the past.
-Jeff Downey
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5114 Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:20 pm
"curt young" <curtyoung13(at)hotmail.com>
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
hey u guys:
tread carefully. methinks the giants will rise again. BP has 2 of their top 10 minor league prospects
within the giants underground; and didn't 1 of their throwers just win some kind of award?
curt young
oakland As

--- "angelusmusic" wrote:
> Butch, Go easy on Tom after all he has been through. Through it all, he remains a Giant's Fan.
> Tom. I feel your pain!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5115 Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:42 am
"Jerome, David R." <David.Jerome(at)us.ngrid.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
hi, do you have to buy the game to get the free download with the 2 teams?
thanks,
david

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> Hi there David, thanks for your question! Group member Dean Patino's *Baseball Classics* website
> [ http://www.playbaseballclassics.com/ ]
> is linked on both our main site's Links page [ http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/BbLinks.htm ]
> and in the Links section of our Forum pages [ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/links ].
> Guys, don't forget!, there are a lot more resources and features here than "just" the Forum/e-list itself!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5116 Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:12 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: BB Classics Vortex version
Hi again David -- as you'll see if you look in at the *Baseball Classics* link we provided
[ http://www.playbaseballclassics.com/ ], the game download featuring two teams is free and requires no purchase.
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Jerome, David R." wrote:
<< hi, do you have to buy the game to get the free download with the 2 teams? thanks...
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5117 Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:22 pm
"Jonathan McKeown" <gojisube(at)gmail.com> gojijon
Re: BB Classics Vortex version
I've been intrigued by Baseball Classics in the past, but haven't tried it yet.
What are the pros and cons of the different versions?
Jonathan

--- "chabot652002" wrote:
> ... Have any of you tried the new version of Baseball Classics: Vortex Edition? It is now using 3 6d dice
> for more realism or possibilities. Last week i bought 2008 and i already played some games.
> I really enjoy the game and would be curious to know if anybody else tried it.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5118 Wed Apr 1, 2009 9:16 pm
"dean @ Baseball Classics" <dean(at)playbaseballclassics.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
The Baseball Classics Baseball eGame is Free with 2 MLB teams. No purchase necessary.
You can immediately download either or both the Matrix and Vortex Editions.

Kind regards,
Baseball Classics
P.O. Box 2091
Naperville, IL 60567-2091
http://www.playbaseballclassics.com

--- "Jerome, David R." wrote:
> hi, do you have to buy the game to get the free download with the 2 teams? thanks...
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5119 Wed Apr 1, 2009 9:25 pm
"dean @ Baseball Classics" <dean(at)playbaseballclassics.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
Dear Jonathan,
Here is a link to the Baseball Classics FAQ which covers the answer to your question.
http://www.playbaseballclassics.com/html/faq.html

Kind regards,
Baseball Classics
P.O. Box 2091
Naperville, IL 60567-2091
http://www.playbaseballclassics.com

--- "Jonathan McKeown" wrote:
> I've been intrigued by Baseball Classics in the past, but haven't tried it yet.
> What are the pros and cons of the different versions?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5120 Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:14 am
"Jonathan McKeown" <gojisube(at)gmail.com> gojijon
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
Thank you. I some how missed that when I was looking at the site earlier.

--- "dean" wrote:
> Dear Jonathan,
> Here is a link to the Baseball Classics FAQ which covers the answer to your question.
> http://www.playbaseballclassics.com/html/faq.html
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5121 Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:50 pm
"Jerome, David R." <David.Jerome(at)us.ngrid.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
hi, when i go to download the free game it takes me to a screen to order the game.
i do not see a download feature on this screen, it is in the game store. what do i do in this scren.
thanks,
david

--- "dean" wrote:
> The Baseball Classics Baseball eGame is Free with 2 MLB teams. No purchase necessary.
> You can immediately download either or both the Matrix and Vortex Editions.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5122 Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:22 pm
pap2247 <jcapps3(at)nc.rr.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
Jonathan, I own 8 of the old time teams and the game plays great ! It's as good as any on the market
and I've played quite a few of them.
"Oil Can" john

--- "Jonathan McKeown" wrote:
> I've been intrigued by Baseball Classics in the past, but haven't tried it yet.
> What are the pros and cons of the different versions?
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5123 Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:40 am
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: BB Classics Vortex version
David, that's right, just hit "Checkout," enter the basic info requested on that page, and you should be good to go.

By the way, just a general advisory, same as we mentioned last week, for all the members here -- if you have
questions or comments about a website *other than Baseball Games,* you'll probably get a faster answer
by actually contacting that other site directly.
*Baseball Classics,* ferinstance, can be contacted at [ sales(at)playbaseballclassics.com ],
or Dean himself can be contacted personally at [ dean(at)playbaseballclassics.com ].

B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Jerome, David R." wrote:
<< hi, when i go to download the free game it takes me to a screen to order the game.
i do not see a download feature on this screen, it is in the game store. what do i do in this scren. thanks...
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5124 Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:35 pm
"mzjr66" <mzjr66(at)yahoo.com>
Re: re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Hey guys, I tried to access the download at tabletop games for time travel baseball and I am getting
a fatal error message. Has it been removed by jeff downey since he bought the rights to TT?
Does any body know how to access it or have an alternate sight?
jr.

--- "Jeff Downey" wrote:
> I've got good news for you.
> http://www.tabletop-sports.com/index.ph ... =8509#8509
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5125 Sun Mar 1, 2009 12:08 am
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: Time Travel Baseball Game
Jr, are you logged in there? We haven't yet tried to download *Time Travel,* but it may require user
registration. Jeff has an announcement to this effect posted right at the top of his site's homepage.

We'll take this opportunity to ask everyone, for the third time this week, this simple thing:
if you're having a problem with someone else's website, please, please contact that site, or that site's webmaster,
directly, rather than posting about it in this forum. Contact information for Jeff's tabletop-sports.com, Dean's
playbaseballclassics.com, and so on, is posted prominently right on those sites, and going that route will surely
get you a quicker and more efficient answer.
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "mzjr66" wrote:
<< Hey guys, I tried to access the download at tabletop games for time travel baseball and I am getting
a fatal error message. Has it been removed by jeff downey since he bought the rights to TT?
Does any body know how to access it or have an alternate sight? ...
>>
_______________________________________________

To reply to a message or post a new message at Baseballgames,
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/ on the web
and click on "Post" in the lefthand menu, or simply send your
e-mail to baseballgames(at)yahoogroups.com
_______________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5126 Mon Mar 2, 2009 7:17 am
"Jerome, David R." <David.Jerome(at)us.ngrid.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
john,
hi, how does this game compare to strat?
thanks,
david

--- "jcapps3" wrote:
> ... I own 8 of the old time teams and the game plays great !
> It's as good as any on the market and I've played quite a few of them.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5127 Mon Mar 2, 2009 9:30 am
"Jerome, David R." <David.Jerome(at)us.ngrid.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
thank you

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> David, that's right, just hit "Checkout," enter the basic info requested on that page, and you should be good to go.....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5128 Tue Mar 3, 2009 7:13 am
"Jerome, David R." <David.Jerome(at)us.ngrid.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
hi, can you tell me what the diffenence is between the vortex and matrix versions of the game?
thanks,
david

--- "dean" wrote:
> The Baseball Classics Baseball eGame is Free with 2 MLB teams. No purchase necessary.
> You can immediately download either or both the Matrix and Vortex Editions.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5129 Tue Mar 3, 2009 1:39 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
David, did you look here right at Dean's site?
http://www.playbaseballclassics.com/htm ... ition.html
http://www.playbaseballclassics.com/htm ... ition.html

B, K. & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "Jerome, David R." wrote:
<< hi, can you tell me what the diffenence is between the vortex and matrix versions of the game? thanks...
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5130 Tue Mar 3, 2009 2:43 pm
"Jerome, David R." <David.Jerome(at)us.ngrid.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
yes i did

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> David, did you look here right at Dean's site?
> http://www.playbaseballclassics.com/htm ... ition.html
> http://www.playbaseballclassics.com/htm ... ition.html
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5131 Tue Mar 3, 2009 9:31 pm
"kekasell" <kekasell(at)q.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
I guess I should chime in here since I wrote a review of Baseball Classics that should be in the files section.
The review is based on the matrix edition. Essentially, the matrix version uses 2 D10 to obtain its results,
the vortex uses 3D6. The vortex version used to only use only 2D6 but because of accuracy complaints
from users, Dean decided to go with 3 dice to improve the accuracy. The matrix version is probably more
accurate due to having more possible outcomes.

In a nutshell, the strength of this game is in its ease of play. It is very easy to learn, easy to decipher,
plays quickly, almost all the play results come off the player cards, which, in my opinion, are very well-done.
It is not a highly detailed game but it is not designed to be. It sacrifices some statistical accuracy for playability.
But the accuracy is not as bad as some people have made it out to be. Players will perform as you would expect
and I have thus far been satisfied with the results.

Weaknesses: in my opinion, the biggest weakness is in the fielding and base advancement systems. The game
takes a generic team approach to determining errors, and also requires an extra dice roll. I have cannabalized
Craig Taylor's fielding and baserunning system from his free game, Baseball 5.0, and modified it for use in
Baseball Classics. I believe this is a much better system than the one Dean devised for the game. It does require
the use of 2D20 - one to determine locaton and the other esults - but if playing solo, I throw all the dice at once
and if playing 2-player, the player at-bat throws the result dice and the player in the field throws the 2 D20.
I will be more then happy to share the charts of this system with you if interested. I am still tweaking it
so I can't vouch for its complete accuracy.

Another weakness is in the Play-Action Simulator. This is a novel idea to introduce WP's, PB's, Pick-off's, Balks,
etc. into the game but I believe it is clunky and interupts flow. When using this, you roll the 2D10, and if nothing
occurs, you then roll the 2D10 again along with a die to determine if the result is read off the pitcher's card or
batters. I just use a single D6 with 1-3 being pitcher and 4-6 being hitter to determine which card the play result
is read from. What I have done to speed things up when using the Play-Action Simulator is to either use a deck
of cards with face cards removed and turn over 2 cards with one card being the red die and the other being
the blue or I use a 100 spinner. I also play All-Star Baseball so I use a 100 disc spinner I downloaded from
the ASB Yahoo group to determine the result off of the Play-Action simulator. Both of these methods speed up
gameplay considerably.
I do wish that Dean would devise a system simular to Superstar Baseabll where these results are read off of
the player cards but until then, I think this is the best approach.

To obtain a result, 3 dice rolls are needed, which some have complained about as being excessive. The 1st dice roll
is on the Play-Action simulator, the 2nd to obtain the play result from the player cards, and the 3rd to determine
errors. I use only 1 dice roll, with a spin or turn of cards for the other rolls. And the extra rolls, spins, or card turning
(whichever method you use) is only occasionally when a potential error comes up.

Finally, there is some question about the accuracy of the stealing, bunting and H & R charts.
It does appear difficult to steal in this game, but the results do not appear to be that far off.

Conclusion: if you like a simple to play game that is easy to learn and easy to get into, then Baseball Classics is it.
One of the things I especially like about this game is the ability to purchase any team I want from any year I want.
Dean offers a great plan to buy a certain amount of teams from any year. I purchase all my teams via download
and, thus far, his customer service has been excellent.

I hope this helps. Thankfully, there is a demo to take this game for a spin to see if it is your cup of tea.
If you do play, let me know what you think.
Ken Sell
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5132 Wed Mar 4, 2009 12:15 am
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: BB Classics Vortex version
Hey there Ken, thanks very much for jumping in on this one, and sorry, we should've pointed out that
your very detailed and articulate review of *Baseball Classics* not only *should* be in our Files section,
it *has* been there since last summer (and can still be located in the Message archives as well).
We appreciate your taking the time to recap and add to that existing and easily accessible coverage!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "kekasell" wrote:
<< I guess I should chime in here since I wrote a review of Baseball Classics that should be in the files section....
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5133 Wed Mar 4, 2009 7:20 am
"dean @ Baseball Classics" <dean(at)playbaseballclassics.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
Hi everyone,
Again, Ken thank you for taking the time to write and post your review.

And thank you Butch for posting the links to each Baseball Classics Baseball Game Edition in the previous post.
The difference between the Matrix and Vortex Edition is addressed in our FAQ at:
[ http://www.playbaseballclassics.com/html/faq.html ].

You can send any follow up questions to me directly at [ dean(at)playbaseballclassics.com ].
Kind regards,
Baseball Classics
P.O. Box 2091
Naperville, IL 60567-2091
http://www.playbaseballclassics.com

--- "butch7999"
> Hey there Ken, thanks very much for jumping in on this one.... your very detailed and articulate review of
> *Baseball Classics* not only *should* be in our Files section, it *has* been there since last summer
> (and can still be located in the Message archives as well).
> We appreciate your taking the time to recap and add to that existing and easily accessible coverage!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5134 Wed Mar 4, 2009 7:40 am
"Jerome, David R." <David.Jerome(at)us.ngrid.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
ken, thanks great review. just wondering if you play strat ,and how you would compare the two.
thanks,
david

--- "kekasell" wrote:
> I guess I should chime in here since I wrote a review of Baseball Classics that should be in the files section....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5135 Wed Mar 4, 2009 2:02 pm
"kekasell" <kekasell(at)q.com>
Re: BB Classics Vortex version
Thanks Butch, and no problem. You guys have so many games to concern yourselves with...
I don't know how you can keep up with them all.

Regarding Baseball Classics, I do hope Dean does 3 things with the game:

(1) devise an easier to use base advancment system that is based on the player cards and that will include
advancing 2 bases on singles, scoring from 1st on doubles, advancing 1 base on certain FO's and GO's, and
the ability to potentially throw out runners trying to advance. All this is included in the system I modified slightly
from Craig Taylor's game Baseball 5.0 but I would like to see these things included in the cards ala Avalon Hill's
Superstar Baseball. My system involves the use of throwing 2 more dice but I believe these can be eliminated
altogether or perhaps reduced to one die, only to determine location if using an individualized fielding system.

(2) along with base advancement is fielding and error determination. What I would like to see is some outs on
the player cards coded in white to indicate an error check. Then you can roll on a separate chart to determine
if an error was made. Both team and individual error and fielding systems can be devised, and even use the
same chart! Dean already devised an error chart for the game, perhaps he can rework that into the player cards
to be used only occasionally instead of requiring a separate die throw after every play. In my opinion, this just
slows down game play.

(3) Eliminate the Play-Action Simulator. Again, I believe a system can be worked into the cards to determine
if a hit batsman, WP, PB, pick-off, etc. occurs instead of having to roll prior to EVERY at-bat to see if one of
these events occurs. As is, three separate dice rolls are required to resolve a play and I believe that can be
reduced to 1 throw on most occasions, with another 2nd throw occurring periodically to determine if an error
occured. These events can be coded primarily on pitcher cards (but batters can be included as well) and
can be factored in depending on the frequency they actually occurred.

By including these three changes in the game, I think Baseball Classics will be much improved. For those currently
playing the game, what do you think? I know Dean periodically checks posts from this forum so I'll also be interested
to see what he thinks. I enjoy playing Baseball Classics but I also think it can be so much better.
Ken

--- "butch7999" wrote:
> Hey there Ken, thanks very much for jumping in on this one, and sorry, we should've pointed out that
> your very detailed and articulate review of *Baseball Classics* not only *should* be in our Files section,
> it *has* been there since last summer (and can still be located in the Message archives as well).
> We appreciate your taking the time to recap and add to that existing and easily accessible coverage!
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5136 Wed Mar 4, 2009 6:01 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
Dean, hey, no problem, we're always glad to have actual game designers on board here and to see them
so accessible -- and you're definitely one of the Good Guys in the gaming community. In fact, we're consistently
amazed by your ability to absorb constructive criticism about your game -- all three of us here in the front office
are way too thin-skinned for that sort of thing, no matter how well-meaning, well thought out, and sensible
it might be. Which is why our own "home-brew" game that we've been playing for decades will probably
never greet the public!

By the way, the *Baseball Classics* main website has long been listed in our Links pages, both here in the
Yahoo forum pages and at our own main site [ http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/BbLinks.htm ].
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "dean" wrote:
<< Hi everyone,
Again, Ken thank you for taking the time to write and post your review.
And thank you Butch for posting the links to each Baseball Classics Baseball Game Edition in the previous post....
... You can send any follow up questions to me directly at [ dean(at)playbaseballclassics.com ].
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5137 Wed Mar 4, 2009 6:22 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Game coverage (was: Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version)
Ken, we're always glad to have you posting here in the Forum. Deep thinking is appreciated!
Our own "deep thoughts" on adjustments to existing games only go about as far as removing the
"runner out - hit by batted ball" card in Parker Brothers' 1950 *Baseball Game.*
:-D
Obviously, though, we *can't* keep up with all the games out there since 1869, or at least one of us here
would have remembered to mention your *Baseball Classics* review in our Files section. We just finally solved
one of our Mystery Games, we're running a Nexis search on the final fate of several major extinct game publishers
and toy manufacturers, we're waiting to hear back from a few dozen other websites regarding link listings,
and we're still watching our fax machine for some info from the Springfield library to arrive... Wait -- what's that?
*Two* previously uncatalogued giant action games from the 1930s? Yipes! Ummm...
We have to go research something...
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "kekasell" wrote:
<< Thanks Butch, and no problem. You guys have so many games to concern yourselves with...
I don't know how you can keep up with them all.
Regarding Baseball Classics ....
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5138 Wed Mar 4, 2009 10:04 pm
"dean @ Baseball Classics" <dean(at)playbaseballclassics.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
Dear Ken, Butch, and everyone,
We greatly appreciate and review all feedback that comes into Baseball Classics. Throughout the years
we have been grateful for all the tremendous support since our launch in 1986. Baseball Classics has evolved
since that time to incorporate the graphical card design, accuracy, and authentic baseball game play
it has today thanks to the feedback we have received directly to us via email or reviewed in this terrific forum.

We owe a big thanks to all our customers throughout the past 20+ years, all the other baseball game designers,
and surely this tremendous forum and other websites supporting the passion all of us have for the greatest
game on this planet, baseball!

I will follow up with Ken at some point this year regarding his 3 game play suggestions. We respond to everyone
that writes to us and encourage anyone with questions, suggestions, comments, to do so.

Meanwhile Butch my friend, what will it take to share that game you gents created with everyone in the forum?
;-)
Kindest regards,
Dean
Baseball Classics Baseball Game

--- "kekasell" wrote:
> Thanks Butch, and no problem. You guys have so many games to concern yourselves with...
> I don't know how you can keep up with them all.
> Regarding Baseball Classics, I do hope Dean does 3 things with the game:
> ...
> For those currently playing the game, what do you think? I know Dean periodically checks posts from this forum
> so I'll also be interested to see what he thinks. I enjoy playing Baseball Classics but I also think it can be
> so much better.
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5139 Wed Mar 4, 2009 11:51 pm
"butch7999" <Butch7999(at)aol.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
Thanks for the very kind words, Dean! In answer to your concluding question, we're not entirely sure, but
we think the answer involves enough time to finish tweaking and testing our latest upgrades, enough venture
capital to produce the game in a professional-looking format, a retail price of around $29.95, and a guarantee
of zero complaints and criticism! Har!
B, K, & W
Baseball Games
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/

--- "dean" wrote:
<< Dear Ken, Butch, and everyone,
We greatly appreciate and review all feedback that comes into Baseball Classics.... We owe a big thanks
to all our customers throughout the past 20+ years, all the other baseball game designers, and surely this
tremendous forum and other websites supporting the passion all of us have for the greatest game on
this planet, baseball! I will follow up with Ken at some point this year regarding his 3 game play suggestions....
Meanwhile Butch my friend, what will it take to share that game you gents created with everyone in the forum?
;-)
>>
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Message #5140 Fri Mar 6, 2009 3:41 pm
"kekasell" <kekasell(at)q.com>
Re: re: BB Classics Vortex version
Dear Dean,
I want to personally thank you for your response to my posts on your game, Baseball Classics.
I think you know that my intent was never to criticize the game. I enjoy playing Baseball Classics and
will recommend it to others. I know you took quite a bit of heat on another table top gaming forum
regarding your game, and, in fact, as I read some of the posts, was appalled at some of the things written.
I believe that some people just had an axe to grind as well as promoting their favorite game.

In all my years of playing baseball games, both tabletop and computer, I've yet to find a game that did not have
a small wrinkle to it, some imperfections, or some things that, in my opinion, could have been done better.
I'm glad that you recognize this about your game as well and are open to suggestions from users. When creating
and designing a game, it sort of becomes your " baby" and any criticism leveled against your 'baby" should naturally
be met with some defensiveness - especially if those criticisms are harsh and negative. I am pleased that
you appear to have an open attitude about suggestions toward your game and hopefully those suggestions
will only make a good product better.

As I said in my review and in the recent posts, I only have three issues about the game:
(1) the fielding system
(2) the base advancement system, and
(3) the Play Action Simulator.

I believe all three of these elements can be improved upon, and in the case of the Play Action Simulator,
eliminated altogether as a dice roll prior to an at bat. As the game is designed currently, it takes three dice rolls
to resolve a single play. I believe that can be condensed down to a single roll with an occasional second roll
needed to resolve a potential error, WP, PB, HBP, or an optional base runner advancement. I believe the system
I currently use can be streamlined even more. What I would like to see is most of the results coming off the cards,
with an occasional result coming off a chart.

Just let me know if you are interested in some of my ideas. I will be more than happy to put them together and
give them to you via a private e-mail. Again, ideally, I would like to see a fielding system integrated into the
player cards, a better base advancement system devised, and the Play Action Simulator also being integrated
into the cards and only come into play periodically. I have some ideas on how to do this, but you know the
ins and outs of this game much better than I, and can better determine if these ideas are workable.

Look forward to hearing from you.
Ken

--- "dean" wrote:
> Dear Ken, Butch, and everyone,
> We greatly appreciate and review all feedback that comes into Baseball Classics....
> ... I will follow up with Ken at some point this year regarding his 3 game play suggestions....
>
________________________________________________________________________________________________
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