So, the Royal Navy's thinking about cancelling their JSF order

So, the Royal Navy's thinking about cancelling their JSF order

Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:12 pm

August 6th, 2010, 1:05 am #1

and buying Rhinos. Wonder if this will affect us getting the F35. The RN was going to be a big customer, if they do indeed cancel their contract I imagine the price will jump considerably. The cost per jet is why they are looking at cancelling. They may have just got too expensive for us too.
Bruce
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Joined: February 28th, 2005, 2:04 am

August 6th, 2010, 2:14 am #2

buying any non-VSTOL aircraft sounds absolutely insane for the RN.
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Joined: April 20th, 2005, 10:41 pm

August 6th, 2010, 2:23 am #3

and buying Rhinos. Wonder if this will affect us getting the F35. The RN was going to be a big customer, if they do indeed cancel their contract I imagine the price will jump considerably. The cost per jet is why they are looking at cancelling. They may have just got too expensive for us too.
Bruce
This has been circulating for some time...there was a rumour not so long ago that they were going to produce the next version of the Harrier either a whole new body or an upgrade to the current harriers. Im sure someone probably even looked at a naval version of the Typhoon ( thin legs i think rule that out?)
The latest rumour is that President Obama is cutting spending the defence forces so the JSF will be on hold as a production plane but will be used as a test bed or will form a small cadre of elite squadrons eg 1 sqdn of JSF with 2 or 3 Sqdn's of F-22's & left overs of F-15's or F-16s to form a multi level area of area defence or attack instead of complete "wings" of JSF or F-22's..the Zummwalt class DDG are being cut from 5 to 4 to 2 & the Arleigh Burkes are being increased by another 10 or more units.
Personally I can't see the JSF being axed... too many foreign fingers risk being burnt especially us & the loss of US aerospace (no matter if its Boeing or Lockheed Martin)creditablity around the world would be a huge risk..especially with Boeing having a huge battle against Airbus in the civilian market & the ship building market is being dominated by non US countries & as for fighters many countries bought the Typhoon as they deemed the JSF a risk or they needed an interim plane until the JSF comes live eg Italy, Norway for starters. Also imagine the payout that say Lockhed Martin & US Govt would have to pay back to the UK, Australia, Norway, Denmark, Turkey & the other multiple countries that have signed up & are putting money forward not to mention the fines they would have to pay sub contractors in loss of revenue (2 or 3 countries in Aust are ready to build parts for the JSF worldwide fleet), so a failure like this would really send Lockheed Martin to the wall. Imagine the flow on effect if Lockheed went under.. US Govt bailout & perhaps another shockwave in the stockmarket. Just what the world doesnt need. For a while there, Boeing's life line was hanging on the Dreamliner after the failure for them to win the JSF contract & if the Dreamliner failed major finacial problems were expected & a merger or take over by someone else was on the cards.
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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 9:03 am

August 6th, 2010, 3:14 am #4

Hi,
History really does have a way of repeating it's self.
If you will recall, Poms order the F-111K, Poms cancel the F-111K!!!. Aussies order the F-111C and despite much development angst and trauma, Aussies "keep the faith" and don't cancel the F-111C, thereby eventually ending up with the best stike platform of it's time. I suspect the same thing will happen with the F-35.
TOR
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Joined: May 21st, 2005, 10:53 am

August 6th, 2010, 5:23 am #5

buying any non-VSTOL aircraft sounds absolutely insane for the RN.
For what it's worth here's the (or a) thread with a news paper article. And note the newspaper article doesn't say RAF just RN

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/inde ... opic=53388

There's some serious dreaming in that thread by people with no idea of what it takes to modify and certify aircraft

IIRC the New QE 2 carriers have been designed with potential to converted to operate conventional aircraft in the future. These a big ships in the 65000 ton class. Much bigger than the Invincible

Cheers

Calum

http://a4alley.t35.com/
http://anzacmodeller.freeforums.org/
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Joined: April 20th, 2005, 10:41 pm

August 6th, 2010, 7:18 am #6

I think the reason they went "big" rather than just Jump Jet Carriers is that i understand the US is very keen on joint operation aircraft operations on carriers & so perhaps the RN sees a possible use of CV carrier as not just taking RN aircraft but perhaps we could see French rafale's or US Navy/Marine F/A-18s operating for a short time on RN flight decks sames as we might see a detachment of RN planes based on a US CVN say in combat operations in Af'ghan or future conflicts.

Recently a number of foreign countries have gained US carrier qualifications to land their aircraft on carriers..I read one comment by an Argintinean officer & another by a French officer that said along the same lines that having gained this practice on landing on US carriers, they can base themselves on US carriers in times of war etc & the US Capt said that this shows that aircraft of any nation can operate off our flightdecks..but of course how could say the US navy operate & support a detachment of Argentinean A-4 Skyhawk or French Naval Rafales on the deck of a Nimitz class CVN with posisble fuel differences & not to mention weapon loads.

I know at 1 stage the French were very keen on buying (or joint operating the carrier as british/French but it fell thru with talks not reaching agreement {much like HMAS Tobruk being shared with the NZ Navy} aka what to name it, who was responsible for maintenance, who could have it when etc etc} the 3rd carrier of the new british carriers as they were wanting another carrier this time non nuke as they were very keen on having a strong "blue water navy" plus at that time the Charles DeGualle carrier was not living up to expectations (broke a screw blade on a reef, ran aground on a mud flat & sucked mud into the engine intakes - not to mention the work that needed to be done so the carrier can take the new E-2C hawkeyes (10 or 15ft too short a flightdeck (if that got completed?)
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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:12 pm

August 6th, 2010, 7:27 am #7

buying any non-VSTOL aircraft sounds absolutely insane for the RN.
It appeared on Britmodeller. I did a search of UK newspapers to verify and a story also appears in "the Times" All part of the UK defence cuts, as you might be aware they are also looking at scrapping the Tornado fleet. I imagine we will be watching to see what happens with their JSF. their two new carriers can be fitted with catapults and arrestor gear if required, but they are designed with VSTOL aircraft in mind. Perhaps TOR is right and we will go it alone. maybe the poms are paying the yanks back for the TSR2!!!
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Joined: August 6th, 2010, 3:56 pm

August 6th, 2010, 4:09 pm #8

Hi,
History really does have a way of repeating it's self.
If you will recall, Poms order the F-111K, Poms cancel the F-111K!!!. Aussies order the F-111C and despite much development angst and trauma, Aussies "keep the faith" and don't cancel the F-111C, thereby eventually ending up with the best stike platform of it's time. I suspect the same thing will happen with the F-35.
TOR
Hi guys,

From what I can gather, the RN are just covering their bases in case the JSF programme hits too many speedbumps. It does however highlight the "modular" construction of their new carriers - I would have thought that the final configuration would have been set in cement prior to laying the keel, but it seems that they can install either cats or a ski jump very late in the construction.

Heres a couple of links you may find interesting

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... Discussion

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 51365-JSF-(F-35-Joint-Strike-Fighter)-News

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ead-of-JSF


Shane
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Joined: September 17th, 2002, 11:35 pm

August 7th, 2010, 2:30 am #9

and buying Rhinos. Wonder if this will affect us getting the F35. The RN was going to be a big customer, if they do indeed cancel their contract I imagine the price will jump considerably. The cost per jet is why they are looking at cancelling. They may have just got too expensive for us too.
Bruce
nightmare as we all know and in the end we were the only other country that bought them.

The fact that we kept it going far longer than even the Americans managed is a tribute to our people, not the design, and I would think that the RN has its eye on the historically demonstrated inability of the US to bring any new project on line within cooee of the original price and forecast time. The US aerospace industry is immensely politically powerful and inherently wasteful.

We shouldn't forget that the US dumped the F111s many years ago, and at the time we should have begun a new program to urgently replace ours. Combing US aircraft boneyards for spares is not good defence policy however cheap.

Whether the JSF lives up to expectations or becomes as the F111 did an overpriced solution to a defence need that could have been met cheaper remains to be seen, however the RN and the RAF were badly burnt by the F111 problems and we should take heed of their decisions rather than just locking ourselves into a purchase that we still have no delivery guarantees on. And accordingly we need to lock in a delivery date beyond which we are not prepared to go regardless of US promises with a full refund of money spent on development. If they cannot meet it we go for something else which can be delivered on time. There is not a shortage of alternatives.
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Joined: March 8th, 2008, 11:42 am

August 7th, 2010, 4:56 am #10

Malcolm says: "Combing US aircraft boneyards for spares is not good defence policy however cheap." Agree, sometimes necessary though (after S2s destroyed in NAS Nowra hangar fire in mid 1970s - we got a good deal from US on their cocooned S2s - with more capability).

Personally IMHO too much is being made from one news report about one option under consideration by UK government today. As if this option has not been canvassed for some years now - including whether to build CVFs in first instance. I guess we will know soon what UK decision will be.

BTW the F-35 family bring a lot of new abilities to ensure a long service life (including stealth for allies). The price of aircraft may be more than first envisaged - we will see if there is cost/benefit over time.
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