RAAF aircraft & museums

RAAF aircraft & museums

Joined: April 20th, 2005, 10:41 pm

September 20th, 2010, 1:34 am #1

Having been at the Williamtown airshow on Saturday ..a question did come to mind & that was the aircraft that the RAAF or private collectors never saved from the scrap yards.

The P-39 in Adelaide was from a wreck in PNG or something right? & that will never fly only taxi around the tarmc same with the P-38 & seeing that the Point Cook museum is already full & any future aicraft will end up in the elements without a major building program that i seriously doubt will ever happen!.. So i wonder what the future holds for our current aircraft that dont get the glory that say the Caribou or Herc fleet got... for example, an RAAF B707 the only surving part will be the nose area so people can sit in the cockpit & part of the general seating arrangement, so what will happen when the Orions are replaced , perhaps the cockpit area &/or possible the operators stations will be kept for kiddies (or adults wishing to be a kid) jumping in & out of seats pretending to track a Soviet submarine..same goes for the hawks & hornets , just save the nose & cockpit areas?? Im sure a whole PC-9 will be saved - to see if its done up as a Roulette or FAC or standard training aircraft will yet to be seen.

I guess we cant save every aircraft, but i guess in a dream world would be nice to save at least 1 sample from every aircraft flown by the RAAF, RAN & Army, even if museums teamed up & worked together.

Someone once told me a story about the hill behind the War Memorial was going to be hollowed out at one stage & that the RAAF , RAN & Army museums were going have their aircraft & equipment displayed there, but the services wanted their own museums as well, but the govt said no individual museums etc.. i dont know if this was true or if its some wild porky pie story
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 2:28 am

September 21st, 2010, 1:32 am #2

If you want to save them you have to fund the effort. F-111's reprtedly will cost at least 1 million dollars to demil to a standard that will satisfy ITAR, OHS and the Greenies, so you can expect to see precious few out in the real world.

The same will apply to any aircraft ending service in the future, especially if the US has even a whiff of an interest in them.

The real solution is a funded and planned programme of preservation of significant examples of all retired airfames and we all know what a stellar record Australian Governments have for such things, don't we?

The Pima Air Museum example would be great where an example of every retired type is rolled across the road and into a museum ,but I can't see it happen. How many retired Macchi's do you see in Australian Museums? Very few and not suprising considering the stripped hulks that were released for tender.

That there is even examples of the P-38 or P-39 on display in Australia is down to private investment and dogged hard work by a volunteer work force.

The joke that was the national aviation museum has long gone flat.

31 years being involved in aircraft preservation from PNG to Moorabbin, to Parafield with time in the Air Force has given me an insight into how badly it is all handled by the government and how much worse it would be without the work of the AARG, Classic Jets and so many others.

Cheers

Tony
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 13th, 2007, 10:31 am

September 21st, 2010, 1:58 am #3

Having been at the Williamtown airshow on Saturday ..a question did come to mind & that was the aircraft that the RAAF or private collectors never saved from the scrap yards.

The P-39 in Adelaide was from a wreck in PNG or something right? & that will never fly only taxi around the tarmc same with the P-38 & seeing that the Point Cook museum is already full & any future aicraft will end up in the elements without a major building program that i seriously doubt will ever happen!.. So i wonder what the future holds for our current aircraft that dont get the glory that say the Caribou or Herc fleet got... for example, an RAAF B707 the only surving part will be the nose area so people can sit in the cockpit & part of the general seating arrangement, so what will happen when the Orions are replaced , perhaps the cockpit area &/or possible the operators stations will be kept for kiddies (or adults wishing to be a kid) jumping in & out of seats pretending to track a Soviet submarine..same goes for the hawks & hornets , just save the nose & cockpit areas?? Im sure a whole PC-9 will be saved - to see if its done up as a Roulette or FAC or standard training aircraft will yet to be seen.

I guess we cant save every aircraft, but i guess in a dream world would be nice to save at least 1 sample from every aircraft flown by the RAAF, RAN & Army, even if museums teamed up & worked together.

Someone once told me a story about the hill behind the War Memorial was going to be hollowed out at one stage & that the RAAF , RAN & Army museums were going have their aircraft & equipment displayed there, but the services wanted their own museums as well, but the govt said no individual museums etc.. i dont know if this was true or if its some wild porky pie story
They are getting an F-111C and will get an F-18, PC-9 and BE2 in the future as well. Not to mention the Boxkite that was just finished. They can squeeze in at least one more aircraft in the new strike hanger too.

The whole problem with a National Museum is that nasty 5 letter word...MONEY. No one is prepared to put up say, 50 million bucks to build a kick arse RAAF Museum because there is no vote in it. The 'National Aviation Museum' has died so many times it's a joke. In the mean time the Government can piss billions away though....go figure.

Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 8th, 2008, 11:42 am

September 21st, 2010, 1:58 am #4

Having been at the Williamtown airshow on Saturday ..a question did come to mind & that was the aircraft that the RAAF or private collectors never saved from the scrap yards.

The P-39 in Adelaide was from a wreck in PNG or something right? & that will never fly only taxi around the tarmc same with the P-38 & seeing that the Point Cook museum is already full & any future aicraft will end up in the elements without a major building program that i seriously doubt will ever happen!.. So i wonder what the future holds for our current aircraft that dont get the glory that say the Caribou or Herc fleet got... for example, an RAAF B707 the only surving part will be the nose area so people can sit in the cockpit & part of the general seating arrangement, so what will happen when the Orions are replaced , perhaps the cockpit area &/or possible the operators stations will be kept for kiddies (or adults wishing to be a kid) jumping in & out of seats pretending to track a Soviet submarine..same goes for the hawks & hornets , just save the nose & cockpit areas?? Im sure a whole PC-9 will be saved - to see if its done up as a Roulette or FAC or standard training aircraft will yet to be seen.

I guess we cant save every aircraft, but i guess in a dream world would be nice to save at least 1 sample from every aircraft flown by the RAAF, RAN & Army, even if museums teamed up & worked together.

Someone once told me a story about the hill behind the War Memorial was going to be hollowed out at one stage & that the RAAF , RAN & Army museums were going have their aircraft & equipment displayed there, but the services wanted their own museums as well, but the govt said no individual museums etc.. i dont know if this was true or if its some wild porky pie story
Skyhawk sale failure By TRACY WATKINS, ANDREA VANCE and MICHAEL FIELD - Stuff 21/09/2010

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politic ... le-failure

"The failure to sell New Zealand's Skyhawk fighter jets has been a "a disaster" for the taxpayer and frustrating for the Government, Prime Minister John Key says.

Defence Minister Wayne Mapp today admitted that unless there are dramatic developments in the next 24 hours, the Skyhawks will be either junked or turned into museum pieces.

The American buyer, Tactical Air Service, has a deadline of tomorrow to come up with the money, after which American State Department approval - required for the sale - expires.

TAS's principal Larry "Hoss" Pearson said at the start of this week that the $155 million sale would go ahead, although he would not give details. He said it would happen "very soon".

The Prime Minister said that even if the Skyhawks were sold there would be been enormous costs in refurbishing them and getting them up and running again.

"It's not just as simple as handing over the keys. There will be an awful lot of work that has to be done and the reality is that time has moved on and technology has moved on. There's a limited demand for them," Mr Key said.

He said one of the Skyhawks may go to Australia, and some of the avionics could be sold.

"We are considering a number of other options that are available to us. There is probably more demand for the Aermacchi than the Skyhawks but we will have to see how we go from here.

"It may well be that they end up in clubs around New Zealand and maybe one going to Australia. It's obviously disappointing.

"It's historic, they'd [Australia] like to have one in their collection over there and I think it would be a nice gesture on our part. And let's face it, there's not exactly a lot of buyers who are clambering in front of them."

He added: "There's some avionics in them and we'd still have to get clearance from the State Department before we can actually sell those avionics."

He said it was "frustrating" copyright around the avionics was blocked by the US State Department. "I don't want to blame anyone. I haven't see any advice on why it's been held up but there's been a number of blockages along the way."

The 17-strong Skyhawk fleet has been in mothballs since 2001 when the then Labour government decommissioned the air combat wing and reorganised the defence force.

They were sold to TAS for $155 million but the sale was stalled by the need for State Department approval, which took four years.

But TAS is yet to hand over the money.

Mr Mapp said he would be getting an update from officials later today: "The key issue there is have they got the money or have they got an extension of the date".

Unless either happened in the next 24 hours the Government would have to look at alternatives.

"If no one wants to buy them they end up being museum pieces - at some point air craft reach the end of their life."

The other option was selling the planes off as spare parts.

The Aermacchi's were a different story - if the Skyhawk deal didn't proceed the jet trainers would be sold off separately.

However, the Aermacchis had long standing engine problems.

WARBIRDS ASSOCIATION: SKYHAWKS WON'T FLY
The Ardmore based New Zealand Warbirds Association wants to pickup a Skyhawk - but only for static display.

General manager Peter Horton said he believed it would be uneconomic to fly any of the ex-RNZAF Skyhawks.

"You can fly anything if you have got enough money," he said.

"The economic thing to do, if you wanted to get a flying Skyhawk, would be to buy one in the States, where they have many stored in proper conditions in the desert."

He doubted the New Zealand Skyhawks had been properly stored and suggested their engines might be beyond repair by now.

Mr Horton added that while the airframes were very old, the New Zealand Skyhawks contained electronic weapons packages that were modern and could not be removed from the planes.

This would probably mean the US would not be keen on having them flying again.

Warbirds, who maintain a big livery of aircraft in South Auckland, would be keen to have a static Skyhawk in their hangers as a representative model of an RNZAF plane.

Mr Horton said he was sure that now the sale deal was falling through, other major New Zealand museums would want Skyhawks for static display.

He knew several large Australian museums would want them as well, partly as the RNZAF Skyhawks were, for a long period, based in New South Wales.

Warbirds, and the others, would not want to buy them.

"We've been asking for years for one for free, and we'll get the letter out again and send it in," Mr Horton said.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 13th, 2007, 10:31 am

September 21st, 2010, 2:08 am #5

If you want to save them you have to fund the effort. F-111's reprtedly will cost at least 1 million dollars to demil to a standard that will satisfy ITAR, OHS and the Greenies, so you can expect to see precious few out in the real world.

The same will apply to any aircraft ending service in the future, especially if the US has even a whiff of an interest in them.

The real solution is a funded and planned programme of preservation of significant examples of all retired airfames and we all know what a stellar record Australian Governments have for such things, don't we?

The Pima Air Museum example would be great where an example of every retired type is rolled across the road and into a museum ,but I can't see it happen. How many retired Macchi's do you see in Australian Museums? Very few and not suprising considering the stripped hulks that were released for tender.

That there is even examples of the P-38 or P-39 on display in Australia is down to private investment and dogged hard work by a volunteer work force.

The joke that was the national aviation museum has long gone flat.

31 years being involved in aircraft preservation from PNG to Moorabbin, to Parafield with time in the Air Force has given me an insight into how badly it is all handled by the government and how much worse it would be without the work of the AARG, Classic Jets and so many others.

Cheers

Tony
Under the brilliant leadership of Keith Gaff and Roland Jahane, but unfortunantly the members stabbed them in the back on the verge of securing the future of the museum for all.

So it's not only the government that handle things badly.......

Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 3rd, 2009, 9:24 am

September 21st, 2010, 2:36 am #6

Skyhawk sale failure By TRACY WATKINS, ANDREA VANCE and MICHAEL FIELD - Stuff 21/09/2010

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politic ... le-failure

"The failure to sell New Zealand's Skyhawk fighter jets has been a "a disaster" for the taxpayer and frustrating for the Government, Prime Minister John Key says.

Defence Minister Wayne Mapp today admitted that unless there are dramatic developments in the next 24 hours, the Skyhawks will be either junked or turned into museum pieces.

The American buyer, Tactical Air Service, has a deadline of tomorrow to come up with the money, after which American State Department approval - required for the sale - expires.

TAS's principal Larry "Hoss" Pearson said at the start of this week that the $155 million sale would go ahead, although he would not give details. He said it would happen "very soon".

The Prime Minister said that even if the Skyhawks were sold there would be been enormous costs in refurbishing them and getting them up and running again.

"It's not just as simple as handing over the keys. There will be an awful lot of work that has to be done and the reality is that time has moved on and technology has moved on. There's a limited demand for them," Mr Key said.

He said one of the Skyhawks may go to Australia, and some of the avionics could be sold.

"We are considering a number of other options that are available to us. There is probably more demand for the Aermacchi than the Skyhawks but we will have to see how we go from here.

"It may well be that they end up in clubs around New Zealand and maybe one going to Australia. It's obviously disappointing.

"It's historic, they'd [Australia] like to have one in their collection over there and I think it would be a nice gesture on our part. And let's face it, there's not exactly a lot of buyers who are clambering in front of them."

He added: "There's some avionics in them and we'd still have to get clearance from the State Department before we can actually sell those avionics."

He said it was "frustrating" copyright around the avionics was blocked by the US State Department. "I don't want to blame anyone. I haven't see any advice on why it's been held up but there's been a number of blockages along the way."

The 17-strong Skyhawk fleet has been in mothballs since 2001 when the then Labour government decommissioned the air combat wing and reorganised the defence force.

They were sold to TAS for $155 million but the sale was stalled by the need for State Department approval, which took four years.

But TAS is yet to hand over the money.

Mr Mapp said he would be getting an update from officials later today: "The key issue there is have they got the money or have they got an extension of the date".

Unless either happened in the next 24 hours the Government would have to look at alternatives.

"If no one wants to buy them they end up being museum pieces - at some point air craft reach the end of their life."

The other option was selling the planes off as spare parts.

The Aermacchi's were a different story - if the Skyhawk deal didn't proceed the jet trainers would be sold off separately.

However, the Aermacchis had long standing engine problems.

WARBIRDS ASSOCIATION: SKYHAWKS WON'T FLY
The Ardmore based New Zealand Warbirds Association wants to pickup a Skyhawk - but only for static display.

General manager Peter Horton said he believed it would be uneconomic to fly any of the ex-RNZAF Skyhawks.

"You can fly anything if you have got enough money," he said.

"The economic thing to do, if you wanted to get a flying Skyhawk, would be to buy one in the States, where they have many stored in proper conditions in the desert."

He doubted the New Zealand Skyhawks had been properly stored and suggested their engines might be beyond repair by now.

Mr Horton added that while the airframes were very old, the New Zealand Skyhawks contained electronic weapons packages that were modern and could not be removed from the planes.

This would probably mean the US would not be keen on having them flying again.

Warbirds, who maintain a big livery of aircraft in South Auckland, would be keen to have a static Skyhawk in their hangers as a representative model of an RNZAF plane.

Mr Horton said he was sure that now the sale deal was falling through, other major New Zealand museums would want Skyhawks for static display.

He knew several large Australian museums would want them as well, partly as the RNZAF Skyhawks were, for a long period, based in New South Wales.

Warbirds, and the others, would not want to buy them.

"We've been asking for years for one for free, and we'll get the letter out again and send it in," Mr Horton said.
Spose the time they spent there in RAN colours doesnt count.
D

If the band you're in starts playing different tunes, I'll see you on the dark side of the moon: Pink Floyd
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 3rd, 2009, 9:24 am

September 21st, 2010, 2:49 am #7

Under the brilliant leadership of Keith Gaff and Roland Jahane, but unfortunantly the members stabbed them in the back on the verge of securing the future of the museum for all.

So it's not only the government that handle things badly.......
Unless it involves a few gifted and farsighted individuals (I nominate the Thomas's here) What I've seen of a lot of museums is a huge mad grab for anything with wings on it before discovering that its all a bit hard to look after them so just shove them outside and wonder why no bugger comes to pay the exorbidant entry price to see the sad things.
And yes I am taking aim at one museum in particular but no names no getting sued.
As for the military anybody had a look at the A-4 at Nowra lately? Have a look at where the arrow on the intake is. Frack me guys, your service owned the things but you cant get the paint job right!
How many derelict Vampires and Meteors have we seen over the years?
Ten or twenty years time there wont be any F-18's or Orions in museums because some seat polisher in Canberra will decide the scrap value outways the historical significance before selling the lot to his brother in laws scrap metal business.
The whole thing is effing ridiculous.
D
(Sore hand and bad attitude today)

If the band you're in starts playing different tunes, I'll see you on the dark side of the moon: Pink Floyd
Last edited by The_Venom_Vixen on September 21st, 2010, 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: September 27th, 2008, 10:40 pm

September 21st, 2010, 7:41 am #8

Under the brilliant leadership of Keith Gaff and Roland Jahane, but unfortunantly the members stabbed them in the back on the verge of securing the future of the museum for all.

So it's not only the government that handle things badly.......
I have taken groups from work to the MAM as well as Point Cook, in both cases the parties enjoyed each museum to the upmost. I know MAM operates on a voluniteer basis and given the challengers of finance, I believe personally they do a great job, as with the other museums around Australia.


Kind Regards
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: May 21st, 2005, 10:53 am

September 21st, 2010, 8:12 am #9

Spose the time they spent there in RAN colours doesnt count.
D

If the band you're in starts playing different tunes, I'll see you on the dark side of the moon: Pink Floyd
Not to a NZ newspaper Journo.

Probably doesn't realise that some of them spent a bit of their life with red rat on them

Cheers

Calum

http://a4alley.t35.com/
http://anzacmodeller.freeforums.org/
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: May 21st, 2005, 10:53 am

September 21st, 2010, 8:30 am #10

Unless it involves a few gifted and farsighted individuals (I nominate the Thomas's here) What I've seen of a lot of museums is a huge mad grab for anything with wings on it before discovering that its all a bit hard to look after them so just shove them outside and wonder why no bugger comes to pay the exorbidant entry price to see the sad things.
And yes I am taking aim at one museum in particular but no names no getting sued.
As for the military anybody had a look at the A-4 at Nowra lately? Have a look at where the arrow on the intake is. Frack me guys, your service owned the things but you cant get the paint job right!
How many derelict Vampires and Meteors have we seen over the years?
Ten or twenty years time there wont be any F-18's or Orions in museums because some seat polisher in Canberra will decide the scrap value outways the historical significance before selling the lot to his brother in laws scrap metal business.
The whole thing is effing ridiculous.
D
(Sore hand and bad attitude today)

If the band you're in starts playing different tunes, I'll see you on the dark side of the moon: Pink Floyd
I think youre a bit of mark here. I mean you better than most must know what it costs to run a museum

Recently

Theyve saved the cockpit of a B707 and IIRC at least 2 F-111s are going to museums. The AWM got a Caribou. Id bet you anything you like there will be at least 1 F/A-18 preserved (more likely many more than that).

Rumour is the AWM will get a Sea King, although I hope 1 ends up in the FAA museum.

As for entry prices, the FAA museum is pretty good value at $10 for adults and under $18s free. It is a pity the Navy isnt that interested in supporting the historic flight though.

But I agree the paint job on the A-4 could have been better (I preferred the 2 tone grey scheme myself)

Hopefully with the Kiwi A-4 sale now (apparently) finally dead they may get a real Ex TA-4and A-4G (NZ6255 and NZ6218 would be my picks with 18 being a USN Vietnam vet, Ex RAN and soon to be Ex RNZAF)

If they do hopefully 1 will stay in the Kiwi scheme (Being that I worked on them for while in those colours) and we can get rid of the abomination that masquerades as an A-4G

Cheers

Calum

http://a4alley.t35.com/
http://anzacmodeller.freeforums.org/
Quote
Like
Share