Codex: Alpha Legion Discussion

Our own fan-made codex for representing Alpha Legion.

Codex: Alpha Legion Discussion

WarpWhisperer
High Command
WarpWhisperer
High Command
Joined: 24 Mar 2008, 16:23

26 Jan 2009, 23:19 #1

Right then, Kalarn said this, and before that Aristeo said this and that seems like a great idea, so let's stop complaining about GW kicking our Legion codex into touch, and start making our own.

Some ideas to start off:

No HQ units? (Illeagal under standard 40K rules, maybe farm out to normal squads?)
Operatives (Maybe special rules about them trying to advance to full blown CSMs)
Cultists
Salvage Squads (Only because I've planned one here; you guys may think this a rubbish idea)

Also, what stays from the CSM codex?

Do we scrap vehicles and go for all infantry?

Don't forget we can still use the normal CSM Codex; we want to aim for unique, not just wishlisting what we think the Codex:CSM should say.

Come on guys, let do this!

(I can't actually beleive I just typed that! :huh: )
"I encourage my men to explore the philosophy of bloodshed; to understand the intellectual structure that informs their killing" 'Alpharius', Legion
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Aristeo
Chaos Lord
Aristeo
Chaos Lord
Joined: 29 Jun 2008, 01:45

27 Jan 2009, 00:01 #2

Come on guys, let do this!
- The lesser known battle-cry of the Alpha Legion. :lol:

I actually forgot all about this! I finally gave in and started making a list from the new Codex and never looked back. I really don't think it's as bad as we all thought, although I still really want Cultists.

So I'll focus on that. Ever since reading Legion, I don't think of them so much as Cultists as I do Operatives. The Imperium would classify them as Cultists, but we now know that these Operatives were highly trained and an integral part of the Alpha Legion as a whole. I personally think that the Alpha Legion operates much the same as it did 10,000 years ago, so these Operatives are big frontline players in the overall grand scheme. I have some more ideas, but I'd like to work them out a little bit more before posting.

Of course, I think losing all Cult choices and going back to a pure Chaos Undivided army would have to be mandatory.
"War is simply the galaxy's hygiene." - Primarch Alpharius
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ageis
Daemon Prince
ageis
Daemon Prince
Joined: 31 Mar 2008, 23:06

27 Jan 2009, 07:25 #3

hmm this is somthing ive thought alot about so here goes.

1) lords not being I.C while joined to a squad with same armour type.

2)no deamons

3)scouts/opritives (same gear as S.M scouts)

4)scouts/opritaves with the same rule as the callidus assasins (enter play from any point on table and can move/shoot/assault as normal).

5) chosen count as scoring.

6) combat tactics.

: mark :
"The devil is not mocked" - Alpharius

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WarpWhisperer
High Command
WarpWhisperer
High Command
Joined: 24 Mar 2008, 16:23

27 Jan 2009, 08:20 #4

I really don't think it's as bad as we all thought
I'm not bemoaning Codex CSM of course, I just think we could do something different.
So I'll focus on that. Ever since reading Legion, I don't think of them so much as Cultists as I do Operatives. The Imperium would classify them as Cultists, but we now know that these Operatives were highly trained and an integral part of the Alpha Legion as a whole. I personally think that the Alpha Legion operates much the same as it did 10,000 years ago, so these Operatives are big frontline players in the overall grand scheme. I have some more ideas, but I'd like to work them out a little bit more before posting.
3)scouts/opritives (same gear as S.M scouts)

4)scouts/opritaves with the same rule as the callidus assasins (enter play from any point on table and can move/shoot/assault as normal).
I think we could have the potential for both types here:

Cultists: Mob that have been 'convinced' to worship Chaos, but treated as little more than cannon fodder by the AL. Basic human stats. These guys, harking back to the 3.5 codex, should be the only ones who can have Icons.

Operatives: The SM Scouts equivalent for the AL; they're the ones who may someday make the grade to become fully fledged AL. Maybe a troops choice for this kind of group aspirant and an elite choice for 'deep cover' individuals

If we had these two plus Alpha Legionnaires as Troops choices, people could flavour their army as they wanted. Although, would we keep CSM squads as elites? Do we want to field mass numbers of AL in this codex, or should we leave that to Codex:CSM?
Of course, I think losing all Cult choices and going back to a pure Chaos Undivided army would have to be mandatory.
Naturally :D Maybe even keeping 'Chaos' out of the list in some respects, e.g. limiting daemons, icons etc.
1) lords not being I.C while joined to a squad with same armour type.
Maybe even going one step further, to make the Codex stand out a little more, and have no ICs in the whole list?
2)no deamons
I'm not sure if we should let Cultists still summon these guys maybe? Or a 0-1 restriction? I'm definately for a ban on greater daemons (I'm never a fan of letting one of my champs get possessed anyway :lol: )
5) chosen count as scoring.
Maybe let troop AL CSMs have infiltrate instead?
6) combat tactics.
Morale and how the AL legionnaires deal with it is a core issue here, I think. Icons don't seem right, ATSKNF seems overpowered, and not very fluffy as we're not brainless zealots who never run away. Fearless is a double edged sword also reserved for general nutters. I was thinking maybe just a ld 10, but by itself that means that we probably would have the Night Goblin equivalent in a 40K setting.
I was also think about letting AL legionnaires still regroup if under half strength. And/or maybe if squad fall backoff table, they don't count as destroyed. But neither of these help us in CC, admittedly. This area is a minefiled, I think, and should be negotiated with care.

Another couple of thoughts;

I was thinking maybe HQ choices (as is the fashion now) could have an army wide effect, and could be some kind of mission classification. For example, Uprising could make cultists into zealots (Furious charge), Sabotage could give cultists infiltrate. Hmmmm.... seems I'm going for cultist upgrades here; maybe one of the HQ choices could be a cult leader? (Not an IC, attached to one of the squads, like the rabble rouser in the LaTD Apoc formation)

We should have some missions too. Waggerz had a good idea here or I was thinking maybe a mission where the AL could win in several ways, or even just to mix it up a mission where neither side knows the other's objective. Or maybe focus more on narrative/linked missions to show that AL battles are never what they first appear to be : mark :

Edit: I think there's a bit more general discussion to go yet, but soon I think we should go through the list of troop types in Codex:CSM and give them a thumbs up/down.
"I encourage my men to explore the philosophy of bloodshed; to understand the intellectual structure that informs their killing" 'Alpharius', Legion
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Kalarn
Cult leader
Kalarn
Cult leader
Joined: 10 Apr 2008, 13:43

27 Jan 2009, 16:58 #5

I'd keep cult troops, but make them elites. Also, instead of being god-worshipping madmen, they can be our specialists.

Here's a quick summary of how I would plan to include each.

Bezerkers: A surgeon of the old World Eaters legion, who still remembers the meaning of battle beyond bloodletting and skulls has been persuaded to assist the AL. His skills supply the AL with fearless assault troops to unleash only when they need the enemy utterly destroyed.

Thousand Sons: These specialists were formed to counter the sternguard units of the loyalists. Carrying modified flux rounds that are powerful enough to penetrate power armour, only the most responsible and dedicated to the Legion will be intiated. Initiation requires many things, but the most important task is to slay a Space Marine Chaplain/ High Priest of the Imperium and to take his rosarius. Of course, with such a concentration of forcefields, the air around these specialists thickens, making progress on foot slower than an ordinary Legionnaire.

Plague Marines: Those marines that show great strength in battle are often further augmented with bionics. Rogue techmarines and dark mechanicum adepts are more than happy to join the Legion, provided that the price is right.

Noise marines: These could just be similar to fabius bike's enhanced warriors, only more stable. That, or they can be the most quick-witted warriors in the Legion armed with sophisticated bolter weaponry that far surpasses that of the Imperium's technology. As such, they often form bodyguard units for individuals known only as 'Mindkeepers'. More on those later.




I like the troop choice options. I think normal CSM should remain as troops, though we need to change the name of the various marks available to them.

Are we making this codex for renegade Alpha Legion, or the traditional chaos Alpha Legion?
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ageis
Daemon Prince
ageis
Daemon Prince
Joined: 31 Mar 2008, 23:06

27 Jan 2009, 23:07 #6

I'm not sure if we should let Cultists still summon these guys maybe? Or a 0-1 restriction? I'm definately for a ban on greater daemons (I'm never a fan of letting one of my champs get possessed anyway  )
that sounds fair.
Maybe let troop AL CSMs have infiltrate instead?
i know it sounds wrong coming from a fellow legionare but i think thats too much infiltraiting. scouts, opritives and all the marines infiltraiting?.
i think it will encourage more varied tactics than just infiltraite everything if we keep chosen as they are ( better gear anyway) and leave the chaos warrior squad as is( maybe give them a scout move and move through cover?)

i think cultist's should at least have accses to las guns (so we can use cool guard models).

landspeeder storms for fast attack?

drop pods?

no defilers
I was thinking maybe HQ choices (as is the fashion now) could have an army wide effect
like the khan guy gives outflank. outflank would be another good rule to use that way.
"The devil is not mocked" - Alpharius

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WarpWhisperer
High Command
WarpWhisperer
High Command
Joined: 24 Mar 2008, 16:23

28 Jan 2009, 08:38 #7

Kalarn wrote:I'd keep cult troops, but make them elites. Also, instead of being god-worshipping madmen, they can be our specialists.
Those are some great fluffy suggestions on using cult troops Kalarn, but (and there was always going to be a but, sorry), you could use those suggestions to field those troop types using C:CSM, and therefore not effectively need to use another codex.
Kalarn wrote:I like the troop choice options. I think normal CSM should remain as troops, though we need to change the name of the various marks available to them.
Aegis wrote:know it sounds wrong coming from a fellow legionare but i think thats too much infiltraiting. scouts, opritives and all the marines infiltraiting?.
i think it will encourage more varied tactics than just infiltraite everything if we keep chosen as they are ( better gear anyway) and leave the chaos warrior squad as is( maybe give them a scout move and move through cover?)
OK, normal troop CSMs it seems to be.
Although maybe just take away icons all together; keep the chaos undivided theme, and steer clear of specialisation into other marks?
I think if we create something that looks like wishlisting, people will say "Look, they crammed everything in to make their army unbeatable", as opposed to "Look, they made a cool, fluffy codex." I was also thinking of including normal 'imperial only' heavy weapons. Reasonable? Or am I wishlisting?

However, instead of the standard chosen, maybe fill out the chosen role into 'mission specialists', so they could for example take an Apothecary (making them a bit like plague marine, but without the T5 or blight grenades), and/or Inferno bolts (so a little like sternguard or thousand sons, but again not as good). Remove heavy weapons options possibly as a balance to this? Not bionics though; I was thinking these should be equipment choices rather than 'lifestyle choices', to show AL picking what they need for each mission.
Aegis wrote:i think cultist's should at least have accses to las guns (so we can use cool guard models).
Good point. No special/heavy weapons, though. These guys are the lowest of the low ;)
Aegis wrote:landspeeder storms for fast attack?
This would be cool, but my gut feekling says no - it's just too new and shiny for codex (shudder) marines. Still, it's probably worth some more debate.
Aegis wrote:drop pods?
Not so sure, as this would imply a significant orbital presence, which may be out of our remit.
Aegis wrote:no defilers
Agreed. And probably no Dreads or Termies either.
Kalarn wrote:Are we making this codex for renegade Alpha Legion, or the traditional chaos Alpha Legion?
I don't think we necessarily need to make a distinction here; it should be up to the player concerned. However, if we could find some middle ground to the whole 'loyalist or chaos?' codex debate, I'll guess we could call that our 'window'.
"I encourage my men to explore the philosophy of bloodshed; to understand the intellectual structure that informs their killing" 'Alpharius', Legion
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Aristeo
Chaos Lord
Aristeo
Chaos Lord
Joined: 29 Jun 2008, 01:45

29 Jan 2009, 00:22 #8

I just scanned over some posts and a few thoughts came to mind.

Since this is the brainstorming stage, let's keep it simple. Think of the army options that we NEED. Once we have a good core to work with, we can add in a few extras to flesh out the Codex.

I'm thinking that an Alpha Legion force that hails from the Eye of Terror or is utterly corrupted by Chaos and may have some Cult elements to it can be fielded using the current codex just fine. Let's make this Codex for those Alpha Legion forces deep in Imperial space.

First off, let's not get rid of Terminators because they can deepstrike. Teleporting in is our style when sneaking in is not an option.

Instead of Drop Pods, we could use Termites to drill up from underground. These could also be used to deliver Dreadnoughts, if Dreads are kept in the list. I'm kind of 50/50 on Dreads. I'd be for them if they weren't all crazy and unpredictable.

I'm not keen on dumb meatshield Cultists. I like the idea of highly trained (brainwashed) Operatives. They should come in 4 types: Infiltrators, Saboteurs, Assassins, and Snipers. Squad size should be kept small. My idea of an Operative would be like Jason Bourne from the Bourne Identity. These guys would act as the vanguard of any Alpha Legion force. Stats should be somewhere between a Guardsman and a Space Marine Scout to represent the training and any possible implants the Operatives have received.

I think having Scouts would be too much, especially since Operatives pretty much take up that role. The best Operatives end up being full Marines so, if anything, Operatives could be fleshed out even more to have different levels. Maybe even some low-level Psykers could be thrown into the list (like Shere).
"War is simply the galaxy's hygiene." - Primarch Alpharius
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WarpWhisperer
High Command
WarpWhisperer
High Command
Joined: 24 Mar 2008, 16:23

29 Jan 2009, 09:55 #9

Aristeo wrote:Since this is the brainstorming stage, let's keep it simple. Think of the army options that we NEED.
Good advice. TBH, the more I think about it, the less I think that we'd need much in the way of heavy suupport from either C:SM or C:CSM, for example.
Aristeo wrote:I'm thinking that an Alpha Legion force that hails from the Eye of Terror or is utterly corrupted by Chaos and may have some Cult elements to it can be fielded using the current codex just fine. Let's make this Codex for those Alpha Legion forces deep in Imperial space.
I'm leaning this way too.
Me wrote:Edit:Disregard this comment now, please Aristeo, (and others) I may have been too harsh, and we've just nominally agreed to concentrate on the core of the force
Ar...oh you know who said this right? wrote:First off, let's not get rid of Terminators because they can deepstrike. Teleporting in is our style when sneaking in is not an option.  Instead of Drop Pods, we could use Termites to drill up from underground. These could also be used to deliver Dreadnoughts, if Dreads are kept in the list. I'm kind of 50/50 on Dreads. I'd be for them if they weren't all crazy and unpredictable.
Leading off from the previous quote, I think that if we're looking at the sneaky, hiding out in almost palin sight kind of AL list, units such as vehicles, dreads (and termites) would be hard to justify. Where would you hide all this kit, and also expect to bring it out to the correct point of surgical raid (Don't say 'underground' for the Termites! :P )
I'm not keen on dumb meatshield Cultists.
Some people are. But they could be in the Codex, and you could just completely bypass them.
They should come in 4 types: Infiltrators, Saboteurs, Assassins, and Snipers.
Could you elaborate as to how each of these different units could work in game terms?
I like the idea of highly trained (brainwashed) Operatives.
I think having Scouts would be too much, especially since Operatives pretty much take up that role. Stats should be somewhere between a Guardsman and a Space Marine Scout to represent the training and any possible implants the Operatives have received.
Scouts are just being dicussed at the present as a basis to model Operatives off, stats/rules wise.

What do people generally think the stat line for an Operative should read as? Are they closer to SM Scouts or IG Stormtroopers?
Aristeo wrote:Maybe even some low-level Psykers could be thrown into the list (like Shere).
My reservations here are that psykers could be both rare, and attract WH forces to an AL cult, but mainly that low-level psykers have always been a bit rubbish in game terms, and I don't know how you could alter that. If you have some ideas, though, maybe they could work.
"I encourage my men to explore the philosophy of bloodshed; to understand the intellectual structure that informs their killing" 'Alpharius', Legion
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WarpWhisperer
High Command
WarpWhisperer
High Command
Joined: 24 Mar 2008, 16:23

29 Jan 2009, 10:11 #10

OK, let's get this in a seperate reply......

Been thinking aswell, about HQ and troops.

Basic Alpha Legionnaires
So, in C:CSM, these guys can take Icons to beef up their stats. With daemons far, far away, plus not really being known to go in for God patronage at all, Icons seem misplaced in C:AL (Ooohh, that looks wierd :D : mark : )

But also, in C:SM, squads are restricted by their following of the Codex Astartes (shudder) which, obviously, ours guys would eschew.

So, instead, I would suggest, like modern day specialist units, they would pick their equipment for the task at hand. Look through C:SM, I came up with this list:
Signum
Narthecium (On an Apothecary)
Teleport homer (Not locator beacon - this would clash with the proposed use for Cultists icons)
Inferno Bolts (easier to justify than carbon-copying all the Sternguard options)
Jamming beacon (From Landspeeder storm; we should be the only ones surprising anyone here! - although what that would do to daemonic opponenets, I don't know)
Edit: Add Melta Bombs to this list
So these (plus some others?) options could be chosen for a squad. Maybe only one, unless you upgrade the squad to 'chosen/mission specialists' and they become an elite choice.

I was also thinking about HQ choices. I still like the idea of a complete lack of Independent Characters. So I thought maybe one HQ choice could be a Lieutenant (harking back to old editions), with sub-lord stats, you just become part of a unit; maybe elevating that unit to Elite, and allowing more options (like the above equipment choices?)
Edit: So, I was thinking that this sounds a little weak; why would you want to buy a weak upgrade character for a unit, and use up an HQ slot? So maybe if he also came with Rites of Battle and/or the ability to use Combat Squads, then he's a really good choice (too good?)

The other HQ unit I was thinking about was more abstract. Something along the lines of a ‘Mission Statement’ (Name is WIP! :D ) There would be a choice of three of four, with names like: Uprising, Surgical Strike, Ambush etc.

Each choice would then allow you to further customise your force:
Extra Cultists Upgrades
A Transport Pool option (detailing what dedicated transports units could take)
Limit/free up possible equipment upgrades
Maybe add a secondary mission to achieve on top of the standard 40K mission (so the Alpha Legion player could say, yeah, I may have ‘lost’, but I achieved my ‘objective’. Not a way to win officially, but to allow AL players to play with a narrative, and players could even say that the opponent could ‘win’ by stopping the secondary objective being met.)
Plus other options, like outflank (as per Aegis' suggestion)
My meagre notes that I've placed here so I don't (or rather for when I) loose them! wrote:Uprising could aim for max carnage, so cultists get Furious Charge for zealots, operatives act a saboteurs.
Ambush could use cultists as bait, everyone else could outflank, amybe snipes count as assault 1 in their first turn?
So the choice of HQ would then define the 'flavour' of force you could/would want to take, but you could also just choose a Lieutenenat, and go for a 'vanilla' force.

Aside from all this, I also though we could maybe utilise a Landspeeder storm without any of the extra kit, but as a dedicated transport instead. (Can’t remember why – it’s in my notes!)

Any thoughts on these ideas?
"I encourage my men to explore the philosophy of bloodshed; to understand the intellectual structure that informs their killing" 'Alpharius', Legion
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Aristeo
Chaos Lord
Aristeo
Chaos Lord
Joined: 29 Jun 2008, 01:45

29 Jan 2009, 23:42 #11

Oh wow... I don't have the new Space Marine codex, so I don't know what you're talking about for some of that last post. I might have to go pick one up so we can get on the same page.

I thought it was in the Index Astartes article that said the Alpha Legion makes use of Termites. I know I read it somewhere. Utilizing old abandoned tunnels and even drilling out new ones is a great way to get around and infiltrate enemy territory. It also makes a lot more sense than using tanks.

Which leads to my next point: I think a limit on tanks would be good, but let's not take them out altogether. Tanks as part of an overall strategy seems fitting, so maybe a limit of 2 Rhinos and 1 type of tank in the Heavy Support section? Just a thought.

With a limit on tanks, Dreads seem to be a good option. A walker with heavy weapons makes more sense than a tank would. I'm thinking the rules for a Loyalist Dread would work better than its crazed Chaos counterpart. Probably also limit this to 1.

Okay, some people like the Meatshield Cultists. Some people want Scouts. Maybe 3 tiers of Operatives would be good. This could represent the transition from off-the-street Cultist (cheap meatshield troop/potential recruit), to a highly trained Operative, on to a Scout (chosen for implantation to become Astartes). So Recruits, Operatives, and Specialists sound like cool names to me.

I'm not sure how well an absence of HQ choice would work out, but going back to the Chaos Lieutenant sounds great! I'm not too keen on getting different abilities based on HQ choice, it doesn't seem to fit with the Legion.

So, who gets to infiltrate? Everybody infiltrating sounds overkill, although I do like sneaky Havocs. So, just Chosen?
"War is simply the galaxy's hygiene." - Primarch Alpharius
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WarpWhisperer
High Command
WarpWhisperer
High Command
Joined: 24 Mar 2008, 16:23

30 Jan 2009, 10:40 #12

I read this, made lots of notes, reply timed out and lost it :angry: :angry:

So I'll try again later, but Aristeo, what stats you htinking for those three tiers?
"I encourage my men to explore the philosophy of bloodshed; to understand the intellectual structure that informs their killing" 'Alpharius', Legion
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Aristeo
Chaos Lord
Aristeo
Chaos Lord
Joined: 29 Jun 2008, 01:45

30 Jan 2009, 20:47 #13

I think Guardsmen and Cultists had pretty similar stats, right? So that could be the lowest tier. Scout stats for the highest tier, and something in between for the Operatives. Does a Stormtrooper have stats in between a Guardsman and a Scout?
"War is simply the galaxy's hygiene." - Primarch Alpharius
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Eetion
Daemon Prince
Eetion
Daemon Prince
Joined: 10 May 2006, 16:27

30 Jan 2009, 20:56 #14

I rthink were looking at this the wrong way i mean 3 tiers.... stats and what have you... To me it would be simpler to have a pts increase on a basic cultist to obtain better euipment and Ld.
Id keep stat upgrades to a minimum.
No level 3 operative would have same stat line as an AL Marine.
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Aristeo
Chaos Lord
Aristeo
Chaos Lord
Joined: 29 Jun 2008, 01:45

30 Jan 2009, 21:09 #15

It does seem a bit...overcomplicated. I was thinking about that earlier today driving to work. Maybe separate into 2 types of Operatives and buy options like you're talking about, then have Scouts separately. I think having Scouts would be pretty cool. Although, I can't help but feel that we don't want to create a force that you could just as easily create using the new Space Marines Codex.
"War is simply the galaxy's hygiene." - Primarch Alpharius
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