Well, I guess we failed

Well, I guess we failed

Joined: December 19th, 2010, 4:10 am

April 13th, 2011, 11:36 pm #1

Besides being cute and everything, Yume has been getting worse and worse for the last few weeks after a month of improvement, and throwing terrible fits outside and indoors trying to correct me often. It has nothing to do with e-collar, as it started to happen long before we got it-in fact, once in a while she threw similar tantrums since we got her. Recently they became daily, now-hourly, and manifest themselves as the same old "Don't you DARE to correct me" fits, even when I am not planning on correcting her, and just tried to lead her away from something (or somebody). IN the last few days she has gotten violent with me and even threw the same fit in front of my husband, which i thought she would never do. She gets pissed at me for something, drops to the ground and screams and tries to bite if you try anything (correcting her for it, yanking her up, trying to make her sit or walk, anything). It pretty much looks like an angry child throwing a fit. She prefers to do this in our neighborhood mostly as she is more comfortable here I guess, and considers it her "turf". Yesterday she simply got pissed that I led her away from our friend who was smoking outside on the stairs, and started biting the leash and then my hand, screaming in pretty nasty voice. I had enough by that time and went and corrected her with the leash, after each a battle ensued and she did try to bite me, bit my hand and my arm, and if I did not think ahead and did not put a thick leather glove on left hand and didn't have a coat sleeve too, I would probably be needing stitches. Interesting that she WAS submissive and nice just a few weeks ago, no tantrums for a long time, then something happened (nothing changed in our life besides that we started to allow her to down-stay in our room a few times a day).

Today I was smart, put a muzzle on her, but when I removed it on the way home she threw a tantrum the minute we stepped through the door. I had to wrestle her again(what am I supposed to do in this case?). She has not drawn any blood, but only because I was well dressed for the occasion...I assume this is it. I do deem her dangerous. God forbid someone with a child could have gotten this dog. I did as much as I could, as did my husband. God knows I have gone with two painful root canals that I can't afford to fix for three months and missed doctor appointments while myself struggling with untreatable illness because she needed this and that for her issues, money we could have well spent on extra tasty treats and supplements or obedience classes for a normal dog. But that's nothing...so much emotional baggage put into her. I literally had to change the way I move and think, go out with a "positive attitude"and walk the dog that tied to bite me multiple times, and growing. Thank you guys all for all your help, but I guess we will have to give her up. We don't know yet where. I need a trustworthy, friendly animal. I have been talking with some folks on Leerburg Forum, they have advised to get a behaviour evaluation from a professional trainer (they gave me some phone numbers) but honestly I have NO money left for anything like this anymore. We live on a minimum wage job and my state assistance (miserable sum) and we manage to feed our dog the best food and give her the best care out there, but handler aggression modification that might or might not work and will cost hundreds of dollars we don't have...no. We tried. Very, very hard.
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Joined: June 17th, 2006, 6:15 am

April 14th, 2011, 7:04 am #2

So sorry to hear this, Maria. I know you've tried so hard with Yume. I don't think many people would've put in as much effort into her as you did. I have to admit that I personally would not have brought a dog like Yume into my home at all. There are too many nice Akitas needing homes for me to give space to a rehab case. So, I commend you for trying as hard as you did. Please know that there are MANY stable Akitas with good temperaments needing good homes in rescue. My Akita that was rescued from the shelter is the easiest dog we have ever owned, needing pretty much no work whatsoever from day one, other than trying to get him in better shape physically and teaching him that rushing out the front door is not acceptable (a lesson he learned and respected after just a few tries). If you are still interested in adopting an adult dog, please check with the Akita rescue in your area for a dog that would be a good fit for you. All of the dogs in the various Akita rescues have been temperament evaluated by people experienced with Akitas and deemed fit for a family home, and most have spent time in a foster home where the foster parents have further gotten to know the dog and its personality, so there are no nasty surprises.
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Joined: January 30th, 2011, 1:07 am

April 14th, 2011, 1:33 pm #3

Besides being cute and everything, Yume has been getting worse and worse for the last few weeks after a month of improvement, and throwing terrible fits outside and indoors trying to correct me often. It has nothing to do with e-collar, as it started to happen long before we got it-in fact, once in a while she threw similar tantrums since we got her. Recently they became daily, now-hourly, and manifest themselves as the same old "Don't you DARE to correct me" fits, even when I am not planning on correcting her, and just tried to lead her away from something (or somebody). IN the last few days she has gotten violent with me and even threw the same fit in front of my husband, which i thought she would never do. She gets pissed at me for something, drops to the ground and screams and tries to bite if you try anything (correcting her for it, yanking her up, trying to make her sit or walk, anything). It pretty much looks like an angry child throwing a fit. She prefers to do this in our neighborhood mostly as she is more comfortable here I guess, and considers it her "turf". Yesterday she simply got pissed that I led her away from our friend who was smoking outside on the stairs, and started biting the leash and then my hand, screaming in pretty nasty voice. I had enough by that time and went and corrected her with the leash, after each a battle ensued and she did try to bite me, bit my hand and my arm, and if I did not think ahead and did not put a thick leather glove on left hand and didn't have a coat sleeve too, I would probably be needing stitches. Interesting that she WAS submissive and nice just a few weeks ago, no tantrums for a long time, then something happened (nothing changed in our life besides that we started to allow her to down-stay in our room a few times a day).

Today I was smart, put a muzzle on her, but when I removed it on the way home she threw a tantrum the minute we stepped through the door. I had to wrestle her again(what am I supposed to do in this case?). She has not drawn any blood, but only because I was well dressed for the occasion...I assume this is it. I do deem her dangerous. God forbid someone with a child could have gotten this dog. I did as much as I could, as did my husband. God knows I have gone with two painful root canals that I can't afford to fix for three months and missed doctor appointments while myself struggling with untreatable illness because she needed this and that for her issues, money we could have well spent on extra tasty treats and supplements or obedience classes for a normal dog. But that's nothing...so much emotional baggage put into her. I literally had to change the way I move and think, go out with a "positive attitude"and walk the dog that tied to bite me multiple times, and growing. Thank you guys all for all your help, but I guess we will have to give her up. We don't know yet where. I need a trustworthy, friendly animal. I have been talking with some folks on Leerburg Forum, they have advised to get a behaviour evaluation from a professional trainer (they gave me some phone numbers) but honestly I have NO money left for anything like this anymore. We live on a minimum wage job and my state assistance (miserable sum) and we manage to feed our dog the best food and give her the best care out there, but handler aggression modification that might or might not work and will cost hundreds of dollars we don't have...no. We tried. Very, very hard.
Maria, I am sorry that this has not worked out for you. It sounds as if you have done everything you possibly could for Yume. Unfortunately, as you said in your post, it appears that Yume is in fact a dangerous dog. From what you have described, it would seem that you could never trust Yume and would constantly have to be on guard for your own safety as well as the safety of others. While I know it is hard for you to give up on the situation, no one should have to endure that from their own pet and from what you have described, something terrible is very likely to happen to you or someone else. While I know I may sound cruel in saying this, but based on your description of the situation, Yume probably should not be placed with anyone else.
It appears that, unfortunately, this dog poses a real danger to you and the community and should be dealt with accordingly. It is a sad situation for you and my thoughts and prayers are with you in this difficult situation.
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Candi
Candi

April 14th, 2011, 2:26 pm #4

Besides being cute and everything, Yume has been getting worse and worse for the last few weeks after a month of improvement, and throwing terrible fits outside and indoors trying to correct me often. It has nothing to do with e-collar, as it started to happen long before we got it-in fact, once in a while she threw similar tantrums since we got her. Recently they became daily, now-hourly, and manifest themselves as the same old "Don't you DARE to correct me" fits, even when I am not planning on correcting her, and just tried to lead her away from something (or somebody). IN the last few days she has gotten violent with me and even threw the same fit in front of my husband, which i thought she would never do. She gets pissed at me for something, drops to the ground and screams and tries to bite if you try anything (correcting her for it, yanking her up, trying to make her sit or walk, anything). It pretty much looks like an angry child throwing a fit. She prefers to do this in our neighborhood mostly as she is more comfortable here I guess, and considers it her "turf". Yesterday she simply got pissed that I led her away from our friend who was smoking outside on the stairs, and started biting the leash and then my hand, screaming in pretty nasty voice. I had enough by that time and went and corrected her with the leash, after each a battle ensued and she did try to bite me, bit my hand and my arm, and if I did not think ahead and did not put a thick leather glove on left hand and didn't have a coat sleeve too, I would probably be needing stitches. Interesting that she WAS submissive and nice just a few weeks ago, no tantrums for a long time, then something happened (nothing changed in our life besides that we started to allow her to down-stay in our room a few times a day).

Today I was smart, put a muzzle on her, but when I removed it on the way home she threw a tantrum the minute we stepped through the door. I had to wrestle her again(what am I supposed to do in this case?). She has not drawn any blood, but only because I was well dressed for the occasion...I assume this is it. I do deem her dangerous. God forbid someone with a child could have gotten this dog. I did as much as I could, as did my husband. God knows I have gone with two painful root canals that I can't afford to fix for three months and missed doctor appointments while myself struggling with untreatable illness because she needed this and that for her issues, money we could have well spent on extra tasty treats and supplements or obedience classes for a normal dog. But that's nothing...so much emotional baggage put into her. I literally had to change the way I move and think, go out with a "positive attitude"and walk the dog that tied to bite me multiple times, and growing. Thank you guys all for all your help, but I guess we will have to give her up. We don't know yet where. I need a trustworthy, friendly animal. I have been talking with some folks on Leerburg Forum, they have advised to get a behaviour evaluation from a professional trainer (they gave me some phone numbers) but honestly I have NO money left for anything like this anymore. We live on a minimum wage job and my state assistance (miserable sum) and we manage to feed our dog the best food and give her the best care out there, but handler aggression modification that might or might not work and will cost hundreds of dollars we don't have...no. We tried. Very, very hard.
My friend, please do not blame yourself, as you have gone "Above & Beyond the Call of Duty" with Yume !!!

Behaviorists are extremely expensive, and quite frankly, many of them are down-right useless anyway, especially when it comes to dealing with dominant & aggressive dogs -- Maria, you & your husband have a very hard decision to make, and there is simply no easy way around it ... From afar (strictly as someone who has never observed any of you all interacting with each other in person) Yume sounds like she is a danger to you & could become a menace to others, so if you cannot find anyone with the necessary facilities to provide her with permanent sanctuary care (which means living in a secure kennel environment NOT life as a family pet) then it may be time to have her PTS.

No animal who behaves as Yume has been is happy -- She is being controled by "the demons" in her own head, and in my personal opinion only, Yume is more than you can handle (given your disability, your housing situation, and your lack of expert experience with difficult dogs) ... If you decide not to continue with Yume, making such a choice is nothing to be ashamed of or feel guilty about.

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Joined: December 19th, 2010, 4:10 am

April 14th, 2011, 3:21 pm #5

Maria, I am sorry that this has not worked out for you. It sounds as if you have done everything you possibly could for Yume. Unfortunately, as you said in your post, it appears that Yume is in fact a dangerous dog. From what you have described, it would seem that you could never trust Yume and would constantly have to be on guard for your own safety as well as the safety of others. While I know it is hard for you to give up on the situation, no one should have to endure that from their own pet and from what you have described, something terrible is very likely to happen to you or someone else. While I know I may sound cruel in saying this, but based on your description of the situation, Yume probably should not be placed with anyone else.
It appears that, unfortunately, this dog poses a real danger to you and the community and should be dealt with accordingly. It is a sad situation for you and my thoughts and prayers are with you in this difficult situation.
From the very beginning I kind of in the back of my mind believed that we can do it, it would be such a miracle. She was getting so much better. But all this time it was incredibly hard to keep her in submissive state of mind. Even on her best days, she wold always test me in small ways, test my strength, cunning, etc. She treated every moment of attention given to her as a weakness from my part. Even on her best days she attempted to be sort of sweet but get forced pets from me that I did not even regard as forced (she would strangely push into me when I allowed myself to scratch her for good behaviour) and then half and hour later she would contest my authority again, in some nasty way.

In little ways there was never a second of relaxing with er. Even when was buckling her collar she would sorta gently but firmly place her paw on my foot, and her favourite ting from day one was resting her head on my arm or hand or lap whenever I am touching her. It seemed like a sweet and cute thing, but later on there would be a fit or resistance followed with one of our famed biting or nipping attempts. She had good days when she obeyed, and clearly acted like she IS submissive and a real dog. But she never stopped testing. After I had to throw/roll her with my gloves on a couple of days ago she became very relaxed and submissive and just right after that, next morning, she threw a terrible fit and bit my hand again (I am lucky to not get harmed yet, besides the bruise I had a month and a half ago from her teeth. She has a very weak bite. There is such a thing as I read that is called "bite inhibition". Looks like she is very comfortable (and was from the moment we saw her) with putting her teeth on humans in any manner possible.

She has no fear or second thoughts before she does it. It feels almost like if we had a similar problem with any other dog I've known it would not be biting but maybe barking or trying to avoid the problem but she usually picks t apply her teeth first and then resist until she is physically put in her place. One very disturbing thing that i noticed (and I used to joke about this with my husband) that she only respects harsh correction, nothing else. We have been through groundwork two and a half (considering the beginning ) times, it has been almost 4 months altogether, and she would be bearable in general but once in a while she will f*ck up , get huffy with me, and I was able to correct the living crap out of her with the prong (it happened rarely). She immediately started to respect me greatly and for weeks wagged her tail and lovingly looked at me, asking permission for anything she wanted to do (!). That was a bit disturbing as it happened about three times and while we joked that we have got a masochistic dog in fact she seems to favour physical strength that I do not favour or posess. Again, normal maintenance (being calm and assertive with her) made her confident and calm, but she never stopped herself from putting teeth on me and tried with my husband when he still used to handle her. I cannot correct her like this all the time, and when I try in any way now she pretty much corrects me back. In fact, the new tantrums and aggression started not because of any corrections. She simply contested my desire to lead her away from things she liked to approach, or disliked when I bumped into her with my shin while walking close to her. It has gotten worse so she walks in the muzzle all the time for the last few days, and still puts on brakes and tries to head-butt me when I try to keep walking and ignore her behaviour. As i cannot constantly "bite" the dog or hang her or whatever strong pack leader correction she is expecting and also always expect for her to challenge me, we cannot have her here with these issues.

I believe that in a real dog pack she would be dead as NO pack leader will tolerate so many missteps after she has been reminded generously not to be aggressive. Or would learn the lesson on her deathbed. I cannot provide such teaching.

As you guys probably understand, all the cool stuff (like fun training and playing with her that we practiced before) is long forgotten. We were not able to even let her be a dog or enjoy having a dog. 3 weeks ago I allowed her to play with a stick outside, under control (we practiced "Leave it" and "Take it". After that, there was a revenge for my weakness (it looks like she sees being friendly as such) and she tried one of her fits on the way home.
I am certainly NOT familiar or experienced with dogs like her. One of the people on Leerburg Forum told me that "all Nordic breeds are like this". I don't believe it for a second. Traits of the breed don't stop her from being a dog.



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Joined: December 19th, 2010, 4:10 am

April 14th, 2011, 3:28 pm #6

My friend, please do not blame yourself, as you have gone "Above & Beyond the Call of Duty" with Yume !!!

Behaviorists are extremely expensive, and quite frankly, many of them are down-right useless anyway, especially when it comes to dealing with dominant & aggressive dogs -- Maria, you & your husband have a very hard decision to make, and there is simply no easy way around it ... From afar (strictly as someone who has never observed any of you all interacting with each other in person) Yume sounds like she is a danger to you & could become a menace to others, so if you cannot find anyone with the necessary facilities to provide her with permanent sanctuary care (which means living in a secure kennel environment NOT life as a family pet) then it may be time to have her PTS.

No animal who behaves as Yume has been is happy -- She is being controled by "the demons" in her own head, and in my personal opinion only, Yume is more than you can handle (given your disability, your housing situation, and your lack of expert experience with difficult dogs) ... If you decide not to continue with Yume, making such a choice is nothing to be ashamed of or feel guilty about.
I don't think I can do this. I cannot judge based on what I see and what my husband sees. I need a third person to see what is happening. I had e-mailed this trainer I got a referral to. He works with protection dogs in Pacifica, sometimes comes here. He does free evaluations. Allegedly he saved one person's AKita from the same fate. She doesn't even have to get aggressive in front of him-her body language right now is plenty. I want to let him at least see the dog.

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Joined: June 17th, 2006, 6:15 am

April 14th, 2011, 4:55 pm #7

but Yume does not sound like a dog that can safely fit into a family setting. Maybe this trainer can provide some insight, with an in person evaluation. Otherwise, if a very special person cannot be found to fit Yume's needs, it would actually be kinder to put her down. She would be a liability to give to a normal family and I do not think she would live a happy life struggling with her own internal issues all the time. Frankly, not even an Akita experienced person would take a dog such as Yume. She is not dominant, in my opinion, she is unstable. My first Akita was very dominant, but he was nothing like Yume. It is true that he did not automatically respect people just because they are human (they had to earn his respect) but once someone had earned his respect, he did not act submissive one second and then turn into a wild animal the next. It was either or - i.e. You either had his respect or you did not. Someone he respected could do anything to him, whereas he would try to warn (by growling and sometimes barking, not biting) someone he did not respect if they did something he considered impolite (such as if an adult got into his face and looked into his eyes... Some humans think that this is being friendly to a dog, but it is something I did not allow strangers to do to him because I knew what would happen). Hence, I think Yume's behavior is not that of a dominant dog but an unstable one. And I do believe unstable dogs to be very dangerous, because they are unpredictable.

One last thing maybe to check for, if you haven't already, is Yume's thyroid levels. Sometimes thyroid problems can cause unpredicatable aggression.

Also, in response to one of your earlier posts about how someone from the Leerburg forum commented that all Nordic breeds are like this, I would just have to say that is completely untrue. Yume's behavior is not the typical behavior of an Akita. Our breed is known for being very bonded to and loyal to their owners, even if they may be aloof with strangers and are typically dominant with other dogs. I've known many Akitas, my own and ones belonging to friends, and I've not come across even one that behaves like Yume. I've found Akitas to be very predictable in general, and easy dogs to keep. I've never had to go through "groundwork" with any of my Akitas. A firm and fair attitude is all that that my dogs ever required. I've always played with my dogs and they've always been my shadows, following me from room to room. They sleep with me in the bedroom if they want to, but most of the time they prefer sleeping downstairs or even outside, where it is cooler. Still, they are given the choice to be with me whenever I am home, which is all the time, and most of the time they choose to nap at my feet. A dog that needs to go through social isolation in order to not be aggressive just doesn't seem like it is suited for life in a house to me. I'm sorry your first experience with an Akita happens to be with one that has an unstable temperament and is unrepresentative of the breed in general.
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Candi
Candi

April 14th, 2011, 5:06 pm #8

From the very beginning I kind of in the back of my mind believed that we can do it, it would be such a miracle. She was getting so much better. But all this time it was incredibly hard to keep her in submissive state of mind. Even on her best days, she wold always test me in small ways, test my strength, cunning, etc. She treated every moment of attention given to her as a weakness from my part. Even on her best days she attempted to be sort of sweet but get forced pets from me that I did not even regard as forced (she would strangely push into me when I allowed myself to scratch her for good behaviour) and then half and hour later she would contest my authority again, in some nasty way.

In little ways there was never a second of relaxing with er. Even when was buckling her collar she would sorta gently but firmly place her paw on my foot, and her favourite ting from day one was resting her head on my arm or hand or lap whenever I am touching her. It seemed like a sweet and cute thing, but later on there would be a fit or resistance followed with one of our famed biting or nipping attempts. She had good days when she obeyed, and clearly acted like she IS submissive and a real dog. But she never stopped testing. After I had to throw/roll her with my gloves on a couple of days ago she became very relaxed and submissive and just right after that, next morning, she threw a terrible fit and bit my hand again (I am lucky to not get harmed yet, besides the bruise I had a month and a half ago from her teeth. She has a very weak bite. There is such a thing as I read that is called "bite inhibition". Looks like she is very comfortable (and was from the moment we saw her) with putting her teeth on humans in any manner possible.

She has no fear or second thoughts before she does it. It feels almost like if we had a similar problem with any other dog I've known it would not be biting but maybe barking or trying to avoid the problem but she usually picks t apply her teeth first and then resist until she is physically put in her place. One very disturbing thing that i noticed (and I used to joke about this with my husband) that she only respects harsh correction, nothing else. We have been through groundwork two and a half (considering the beginning ) times, it has been almost 4 months altogether, and she would be bearable in general but once in a while she will f*ck up , get huffy with me, and I was able to correct the living crap out of her with the prong (it happened rarely). She immediately started to respect me greatly and for weeks wagged her tail and lovingly looked at me, asking permission for anything she wanted to do (!). That was a bit disturbing as it happened about three times and while we joked that we have got a masochistic dog in fact she seems to favour physical strength that I do not favour or posess. Again, normal maintenance (being calm and assertive with her) made her confident and calm, but she never stopped herself from putting teeth on me and tried with my husband when he still used to handle her. I cannot correct her like this all the time, and when I try in any way now she pretty much corrects me back. In fact, the new tantrums and aggression started not because of any corrections. She simply contested my desire to lead her away from things she liked to approach, or disliked when I bumped into her with my shin while walking close to her. It has gotten worse so she walks in the muzzle all the time for the last few days, and still puts on brakes and tries to head-butt me when I try to keep walking and ignore her behaviour. As i cannot constantly "bite" the dog or hang her or whatever strong pack leader correction she is expecting and also always expect for her to challenge me, we cannot have her here with these issues.

I believe that in a real dog pack she would be dead as NO pack leader will tolerate so many missteps after she has been reminded generously not to be aggressive. Or would learn the lesson on her deathbed. I cannot provide such teaching.

As you guys probably understand, all the cool stuff (like fun training and playing with her that we practiced before) is long forgotten. We were not able to even let her be a dog or enjoy having a dog. 3 weeks ago I allowed her to play with a stick outside, under control (we practiced "Leave it" and "Take it". After that, there was a revenge for my weakness (it looks like she sees being friendly as such) and she tried one of her fits on the way home.
I am certainly NOT familiar or experienced with dogs like her. One of the people on Leerburg Forum told me that "all Nordic breeds are like this". I don't believe it for a second. Traits of the breed don't stop her from being a dog.


Many of the posters on Leerburg's chat-board are biased (understandably so) in favor or Herding Group breeds such as Belgian Malinois & German Shepherd Dogs, because most of them compete in Schutzhund, etc. -- The vast majority of ALL northern breeds are NEITHER unpredictable NOR treacherous (though typically independant & sometimes dominant, most are NOT human-aggressive) ... And there are very FEW of our wonderful Akitas who turn out that way, due to having been badly bred, badly raised, badly handled, badly trained, and/or badly managed during their formative period.

Not every dog with a severely unstable temperament can be rehabilitated, and very few people are equipped with enough expertise & the necessary physical facilities to salvage extremely difficult individuals -- You are to be highly commended for all the excellent work you've done with Yume !!! Whatever you choose to do for her now is a decision only you can make, but we do not want to see you jeopardize your own well-being (or anyone else's safety) for the sake of what might turn out to have been an impossible fit, under all the special circumstances presented by your disability, housing situation & relative inexperience ... There are simply some instances where THE kindest and MOST humane option is one we least desire to exercise.
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Candi
Candi

April 14th, 2011, 5:34 pm #9

I don't think I can do this. I cannot judge based on what I see and what my husband sees. I need a third person to see what is happening. I had e-mailed this trainer I got a referral to. He works with protection dogs in Pacifica, sometimes comes here. He does free evaluations. Allegedly he saved one person's AKita from the same fate. She doesn't even have to get aggressive in front of him-her body language right now is plenty. I want to let him at least see the dog.
So I would definitely take advantage of one being offered !!! And it is both helpful & hopeful that he has had success in rehabilitating Akitas before -- You are absolutely right that Yume's pushy & rude actions of shoving her body against you, thrusting her muzzle into you, standing on your foot, placing her paw & head on your arm or leg, mouthing the leash & correcting you (with the ATTITUDE you describe) are demanding, intimidating & controlling Alpha behaviors ... But dominance is ONE thing, and human-aggression, especially & particularly Handler-Aggro, is ANOTHER thing altogether (as it stands right now, Yume is displaying an Unstable Temperament, while being both Unpredictable AND Treacherous, so please prepare yourself for the possibility that you MAY hear bad news as a result of the evaluation session).
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Joined: December 19th, 2010, 4:10 am

April 14th, 2011, 6:10 pm #10

..I contacted this guy who claims his evals are free and her told me "125 dollars". And 125 every day of working with her for these particular issues. We can't afford that. I was saving a thousand dollars to do a medical procedure for 4 months, even my mother from Belarus had to send me money to help. We can't spend all our savings on an aggressive dog. We simply have no money anymore unless it's something like food or basics for her.
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