Is New Mexico Suing to Take Guadalupe From Texas?

Is New Mexico Suing to Take Guadalupe From Texas?

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 13th, 2005, 9:20 pm #1

I am looking to get the specific wording but there is a possibility New Mexico may be in the process of suing to take Guadalupe Peak back from Texas. The New Mexico Senate voted 33-0 to sue Texas to have 603,485 acres of land along the “north-south boundary” with Texas returned because New Mexico says the border erroneously was given to Texas because of a surveyor error in 1859. The bill now goes to the House.

Articles are not clear on what north-south means since Texas and New Mexico have a north-south border with NM on the west and Texas on the east as well as an east-west border with NM on the north and Texas on the south. Given that the articles focus on water rights and taking over the West Texas Oil fields in the Permian Basin, I am inclined to believe the dispute involves the border with NM on the west (although the Permian Basin is also on the south of the NM border).

However, Senator Gerald Ortiz y Pena is encouraging New Mexico to also sue Texas for the return of the city of El Paso and all of El Paso County, which he says was ‘maliciously stolen’ from New Mexico because the southern of border was incorrectly placed in 1850 according to where the Rio Grande was (at the time Texas presented engineers to bolster its case while New Mexico offered sheepherders).

If the NM/Texas border were moved a little south, it conceivably would take Guadalupe.

Meanwhile the Statesman reports Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson who earlier had offered to settle with matter in a duel with his New Mexico counterpart now suggests that both the Texas and New Mexico Senate should meet in the disputed area and settle the matter in a brawl.
http://americasroof.com/wp/archives/200 ... sues-texas/
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Joined: April 20th, 2004, 7:19 pm

March 13th, 2005, 10:32 pm #2

anybody know what the highest point in texas is outside that range?
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Joined: January 23rd, 2004, 4:53 pm

March 13th, 2005, 11:00 pm #3

I am looking to get the specific wording but there is a possibility New Mexico may be in the process of suing to take Guadalupe Peak back from Texas. The New Mexico Senate voted 33-0 to sue Texas to have 603,485 acres of land along the “north-south boundary” with Texas returned because New Mexico says the border erroneously was given to Texas because of a surveyor error in 1859. The bill now goes to the House.

Articles are not clear on what north-south means since Texas and New Mexico have a north-south border with NM on the west and Texas on the east as well as an east-west border with NM on the north and Texas on the south. Given that the articles focus on water rights and taking over the West Texas Oil fields in the Permian Basin, I am inclined to believe the dispute involves the border with NM on the west (although the Permian Basin is also on the south of the NM border).

However, Senator Gerald Ortiz y Pena is encouraging New Mexico to also sue Texas for the return of the city of El Paso and all of El Paso County, which he says was ‘maliciously stolen’ from New Mexico because the southern of border was incorrectly placed in 1850 according to where the Rio Grande was (at the time Texas presented engineers to bolster its case while New Mexico offered sheepherders).

If the NM/Texas border were moved a little south, it conceivably would take Guadalupe.

Meanwhile the Statesman reports Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson who earlier had offered to settle with matter in a duel with his New Mexico counterpart now suggests that both the Texas and New Mexico Senate should meet in the disputed area and settle the matter in a brawl.
http://americasroof.com/wp/archives/200 ... sues-texas/
Unless New Mexico is pursuing different land from Texas, this was settled in court a few years ago in Texas' favor. I don't remember the date but it was in the local Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

Hope I can articulate where they are talking about. Notice there is a tiny strip of land belonging to New Mexico just north of the Texas panhandle? New Mexico was saying all the Texas land BELOW that strip belongs to them which includes towns Texline, Farwell & ghosttown of Glenrio. Local residents prefer to stay Texan. The NM-OK-TX tri-state corner would still remain a tri-state corner-just a different configuration
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 13th, 2005, 11:55 pm #4

I am looking to get the specific wording but there is a possibility New Mexico may be in the process of suing to take Guadalupe Peak back from Texas. The New Mexico Senate voted 33-0 to sue Texas to have 603,485 acres of land along the “north-south boundary” with Texas returned because New Mexico says the border erroneously was given to Texas because of a surveyor error in 1859. The bill now goes to the House.

Articles are not clear on what north-south means since Texas and New Mexico have a north-south border with NM on the west and Texas on the east as well as an east-west border with NM on the north and Texas on the south. Given that the articles focus on water rights and taking over the West Texas Oil fields in the Permian Basin, I am inclined to believe the dispute involves the border with NM on the west (although the Permian Basin is also on the south of the NM border).

However, Senator Gerald Ortiz y Pena is encouraging New Mexico to also sue Texas for the return of the city of El Paso and all of El Paso County, which he says was ‘maliciously stolen’ from New Mexico because the southern of border was incorrectly placed in 1850 according to where the Rio Grande was (at the time Texas presented engineers to bolster its case while New Mexico offered sheepherders).

If the NM/Texas border were moved a little south, it conceivably would take Guadalupe.

Meanwhile the Statesman reports Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson who earlier had offered to settle with matter in a duel with his New Mexico counterpart now suggests that both the Texas and New Mexico Senate should meet in the disputed area and settle the matter in a brawl.
http://americasroof.com/wp/archives/200 ... sues-texas/
A friend from NM pointed out I was misreading the bill selection query. Here's the information:
http://legis.state.nm.us/lcs/_session.a ... ch&year=05

The bill itself is not specific and neither are the committee reports. However the fiscal report is quite helpful noting that the dispute is over the border being on the 103rd meridian (3 miles east of its current location). The analysis does state overtly but implies fairly strongly that the matter would be considered frivolous if a border is accepted without dispute for a number of years.

Still since we're talking about West Texas Oil Fields which seem to cut off right at the New Mexico border there might be a strong economic incentive to pursue it. Here's the "Significant Issues" section of the fiscal analysis:
-------------

According to the Attorney General staff analysis, The bill is based on the theory that the true border between the two states is the 103rd meridian, but the 1859 survey establishing the actual boundary set the border three miles east. Allegedly, New Mexico's draft constitution in 1910 claimed the border should be on the 103rd meridian as intended. A Congressional investigation was convened, to which New Mexico, not yet a state, was not invited, and Congress opted to leave the border in place. Allegedly Texas political forces threatened to scuttle New Mexico’s bid for statehood if the dispute continued


According to the Attorney General staff analysis: “In Oklahoma v. Texas, 272 U.S. 21 (1926), the United States Supreme Court set forth the criteria for settling border disputes between states:

“It is well settled that governments, as well as private persons, are bound by the practical line that has been recognized and adopted as their boundary, Missouri v. Iowa, 7 How. 660, 670; New Mexico v. Colorado, 267 U.S. 30, 40 , 45 S. Ct. 202; and that a boundary line between two governments which has been run out, located and marked upon the earth, and afterwards recognized and acquiesced in by them for a long course of years, is conclusive, even if it be ascertained that it varies somewhat from the correct course, the line so established taking effect, in such case, as a definition of the true and ancient boundary, Virginia v. Tennessee, 148 U.S. 503, 522 , 13 S. Ct. 728; Maryland v. West Virginia, 217 U.S. 1, 42 , 30 S. Ct. 268; New Mexico v. Colorado, supra at page 40 (45 S. Ct. 202).”

The Attorney General’s staff analysis states that if this bill passes, the Attorney General would have to determine whether such suit has merit. The Attorney General would be constrained by the New Mexico Supreme Court Rule 16-301 which prohibits bringing frivolous suits. Congres-sional recognition of the boundary as it exists today could be controlling. Any suit such as the one proposed in this bill would have to be brought in the United States Supreme Court
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 14th, 2005, 9:28 pm #5

I am looking to get the specific wording but there is a possibility New Mexico may be in the process of suing to take Guadalupe Peak back from Texas. The New Mexico Senate voted 33-0 to sue Texas to have 603,485 acres of land along the “north-south boundary” with Texas returned because New Mexico says the border erroneously was given to Texas because of a surveyor error in 1859. The bill now goes to the House.

Articles are not clear on what north-south means since Texas and New Mexico have a north-south border with NM on the west and Texas on the east as well as an east-west border with NM on the north and Texas on the south. Given that the articles focus on water rights and taking over the West Texas Oil fields in the Permian Basin, I am inclined to believe the dispute involves the border with NM on the west (although the Permian Basin is also on the south of the NM border).

However, Senator Gerald Ortiz y Pena is encouraging New Mexico to also sue Texas for the return of the city of El Paso and all of El Paso County, which he says was ‘maliciously stolen’ from New Mexico because the southern of border was incorrectly placed in 1850 according to where the Rio Grande was (at the time Texas presented engineers to bolster its case while New Mexico offered sheepherders).

If the NM/Texas border were moved a little south, it conceivably would take Guadalupe.

Meanwhile the Statesman reports Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson who earlier had offered to settle with matter in a duel with his New Mexico counterpart now suggests that both the Texas and New Mexico Senate should meet in the disputed area and settle the matter in a brawl.
http://americasroof.com/wp/archives/200 ... sues-texas/

The poodle Al Capone on the Texas/Oklahoma/New Mexico border during the 2002 Highpointers Convention.


I have almost totally rewritten the blog entry to incorporate material from here as well as discussion from the Boundary Point Yahoo group.

http://americasroof.com/wp/archives/200 ... sues-texas/

One of the interesting tidbits is that if somehow New Mexico successfully messed with the Rio Grande border definition it would wind up giving El Paso to Mexico. For the record Guadalupe is 8 miles south of the 32nd parallel which has repeatedly reaffirmed as the border.

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Joined: July 21st, 2004, 9:12 pm

March 15th, 2005, 5:55 pm #6

anybody know what the highest point in texas is outside that range?
I think Roger has a link to each state's 100 highest peaks, but I recall (probably rusty memory on this) that TX's 2nd highest might be in the immediate vicinity of Guadalupe, slightly north. If so, I guess it might get placed in NM, too. The next highest might be Mt. Livermore in the Davis Mtns far south of the disputed area. It's a very prominent peak. I think it might be on private land.
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Joined: January 20th, 2004, 9:10 pm

March 19th, 2005, 1:09 am #7

Unless New Mexico is pursuing different land from Texas, this was settled in court a few years ago in Texas' favor. I don't remember the date but it was in the local Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

Hope I can articulate where they are talking about. Notice there is a tiny strip of land belonging to New Mexico just north of the Texas panhandle? New Mexico was saying all the Texas land BELOW that strip belongs to them which includes towns Texline, Farwell & ghosttown of Glenrio. Local residents prefer to stay Texan. The NM-OK-TX tri-state corner would still remain a tri-state corner-just a different configuration
After the 2002 convention, three of us (Bob Packard, Roy Wallen and me) headed into Texas to get a couple county HPs, including one in Hartley County that sits a few hundred feet inside Texas along its border with New Mexico. We encountered a man who lives just inside NM who gave us some background of the border dispute that would seem to agree perfectly with that tiny NM strip along its Oklahoma Border. He told us the land was in dispute for a long time - both states' surveyors ahd not surveyed this strip of land which measures less than half-mile width and runs pretty much along the entire N-S border. He called the land No Man's Land; the land went to Texas. He gave no dates and we found it very interesting, and thanked him for his impromptu history lesson.

It does not surprise me there are still border disputes between states. It was only a few years ago that a 20-mile stretch of VA/WV border was formally surveyed to an exact location. Previously it had been defined as the spine of a ridge but the ridge itself was often very broad and wide and ill defined.

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Joined: January 22nd, 2004, 8:36 pm

March 20th, 2005, 8:03 pm #8

I am looking to get the specific wording but there is a possibility New Mexico may be in the process of suing to take Guadalupe Peak back from Texas. The New Mexico Senate voted 33-0 to sue Texas to have 603,485 acres of land along the “north-south boundary” with Texas returned because New Mexico says the border erroneously was given to Texas because of a surveyor error in 1859. The bill now goes to the House.

Articles are not clear on what north-south means since Texas and New Mexico have a north-south border with NM on the west and Texas on the east as well as an east-west border with NM on the north and Texas on the south. Given that the articles focus on water rights and taking over the West Texas Oil fields in the Permian Basin, I am inclined to believe the dispute involves the border with NM on the west (although the Permian Basin is also on the south of the NM border).

However, Senator Gerald Ortiz y Pena is encouraging New Mexico to also sue Texas for the return of the city of El Paso and all of El Paso County, which he says was ‘maliciously stolen’ from New Mexico because the southern of border was incorrectly placed in 1850 according to where the Rio Grande was (at the time Texas presented engineers to bolster its case while New Mexico offered sheepherders).

If the NM/Texas border were moved a little south, it conceivably would take Guadalupe.

Meanwhile the Statesman reports Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson who earlier had offered to settle with matter in a duel with his New Mexico counterpart now suggests that both the Texas and New Mexico Senate should meet in the disputed area and settle the matter in a brawl.
http://americasroof.com/wp/archives/200 ... sues-texas/
We could always sue to get back the old borders of the Republic of Texas, making Mt. Elbert the new highest point in the state... Of course, we'd have to rename it Mt. Houston. Note, just for fun, that if Texas did this, there would be several new state highpoints to visit:

East Colorado: Mt. Lincoln - 14,291'
New Mexico: Chicoma Mountain - 11,561'
Oklahoma: Point 2666' (LeFlore County HP)
West Colorado: Mt. Wilson - 14,250'

Long live Texas!

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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 21st, 2005, 2:39 pm #9

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Joined: March 15th, 2005, 11:24 pm

March 22nd, 2005, 9:25 pm #10

This is great! Finally, some 14ers in Texas!! Who will be the first to compile the brand new Texas 14er list?
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