Will you deny?....

Will you deny?....

Tim
Tim

October 30th, 2010, 6:34 am #1

Will you deny Jesus is the Son of God Almighty?

Will you deny GOD made Jesus HIS only begotten Son?

Answer by posting with your chicken ass comments.
You hidden brute monster.

SPEAK IN THE NAME OF TIM!!!!
Weight! Click my heals 3 times, and Toto!!!!

Ozzy the master.
NO OZZY the MASTER!...

Will you deny Jesus?
Or will you wimp out and say what is TRUTH!?!?!?!?

IJIT Tim
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

October 30th, 2010, 3:06 pm #2

Deny? No, but if in fact Jesus is a Son of God, then he is part of the club of man. We are all a part of the source, of "God" and sons and daughters accordingly.

The Outsider Test.....
By John W. Loftus at 2/11/2006
From Paul Manta's link below in "Christianity and Philosophy" who wrote:
Paul taught in Ephesians 4:17-24 that the Gentiles "walk in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding" because of their "ignorance and hardened hearts," while a completely different epistemic condition characterizes the Christian, one who has been "renewed in the spirit of your mind" and has "learned Christ" (for "the truth is in Jesus"). The "wisdom of the world" evaluates God's wisdom as foolishness, while the believer understands that worldly wisdom "has been made foolish" (1 Cor. 1:17-25; 3:18-20). The basic commitments of the believer and unbeliever are fundamentally opposed to each other.

Thus Paul refers to thought which opposes the faith as "vain babblings of knowledge falsely so called" (1 Tim. 6:20), and he insists that the wise disputers of this age have been made foolish and put to shame by those called "foolish" (1 Cor. 1:20, 27). Unbelievers become "vain in their reasonings"; "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Rom. 1:21, 22).

In Colossians 2:3 Paul explains that "all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" are deposited in Christ-in which case we must be on the alert against philosophy which is "not after Christ," lest it rob us of this epistemic treasure (v. 8). The Old Testament proverb had put it this way: "The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction" (Prov. 1:7). Accordingly, if the apologist is going to cast down "reasonings and every high thing exalted against the knowledge of God" he must first bring "every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ" (2 Cor. 10:5), making Christ pre-eminent in all things (Col. 1:18). Upon the platform of God's revealed truth, the believer can authoritatively declare the riches of knowledge unto believers.
Does this description of the thinking of an unbeliever confirm or deny what I have been saying, that Christianity must devaluate philosophy in favor of believing in historical knowledge of a "special revelation" in the Bible? And if a Christian must place reason below his faith, then how can he properly evaluate his faith in the first place, since the presumption of faith we start out with, will most likely be the presumption of faith we end with? Since the presumption of faith we start out with is something we accept by, what John Hick calls, the "accidents of history" (i.e., where and when we are born), how likely is it that the Christian will ever truly evaluate his or her faith? How is it possible to rationally evaluate the Christian faith when the Christian can only do so from within the presuppositions of that faith in the first place--presuppositions which he or she basically accepted by the "accidents of history."

So let me propose something I call The Outsider Test: If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would be a Muslim right now, say it isn't so? That is a cold hard fact. Dare you deny it? Since this is so, or at least 99% so, then the proper method to evaluate your religious beliefs is with a healthy measure of skepticism. Test your beliefs as if you were an outsider to the faith you are evaluating. If your faith stands up under muster, then you can have your faith. If not, abandon it, for any God who requires you to believe correctly when we have this extremely strong tendency to believe what we were born into, surely should make the correct faith pass the outsider test. If your faith cannot do this, then the God of your faith is not worthy of being worshipped.

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The House

If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.
~ Gensha, Zen Master






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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

October 30th, 2010, 3:07 pm #3

The Outsider Test...Again
By John W. Loftus at 2/16/2006

Earlier I proposed something I called The Outsider Test for your faith, where I wrote: If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would be a Muslim right now, say it isn't so? That is a cold hard fact. Dare you deny it? Since this is so, or at least 99% so, then the proper method to evaluate your religious beliefs is with a healthy measure of skepticism. Test your beliefs as if you were an outsider to the faith you are evaluating. If your faith stands up under muster, then you can have your faith. If not, abandon it. For any God who requires you to believe correctly when we have this extremely strong tendency to believe what we were born into, surely should make the correct faith pass the outsider test. If your faith cannot do this, then the God of your faith is not worthy of being worshipped.


There are so very many things we believe because of when and where we were born that an argument is made by moral relativists based on it, which is known to ethicists as the "Dependency Thesis (DT)" According to the DT our morals are causally dependent on our cultural context. Even if the relativists are wrong in the very end, they make an extremely powerful case which should give the over-confident Christian a reason for a very long pause, if nothing else.

The Christian believes God is a rational God and that we should love God with all of their minds. The Christian is not afraid to examine his or her beliefs by the test of reason because he or she believes in a God of reason. A small minority of Christians even believe Logic and reason presuppose the Christian God.

So what's the problem here? Why aren't Christians posting by the droves and saying, "Fine, I have no problem with The Outsider Test?" Why not?

An outsider would be someone who was only interested in which religious or nonreligious view is correct, and assumed from the start that none of them were true--none of them! An outsider is a mere seeker who has no prior presuppositions about any faith, or no faith at all. To be an outsider would also mean we would have nothing at stake in the outcome of our investigations, and hence no fear of hell while investigating it all. These threats could hinder a clear-headed investigation.

What exactly is wrong with this? While I know it may be impossible to do, since we all have presuppositions, what's wrong with striving for this as a goal that can only be approximated?

If Christianity wins hands down in the marketplace of ideas, like so many seem to indicate, then why not mentally adopt this test? Christians shouldn't have any problems doing this, right?

The outsider test would mean that there would be no more quoting the Bible to defend how Jesus' death on the cross saves us from sins. The Christian must now try to rationally explain it. No more quoting the Bible to defend how it's possible for Jesus to be 100% God and 100% man with nothing left over, by merely quoting from the Bible. The Christian must now try to make sense of this claim, coming as it does from an ancient supertitious people who didn't have trouble believing this could happen (Acts 14:11, 28:6), etc, etc. Why? Because you cannot start out by first believing the Bible, nor can you trust the people closest to you who are Christians to know the truth. You would want evidence and reasons for these things. And you'd initially be skeptical of believing in any of the miracles in the Bible just as you would be skeptical of any claims of the miraculous in today's world.

The presumption of The Outsider Test would be that since there are so very many religions, and with so many people believing in a particular religion because of "when and where they were born," that when examining any religious belief, skepticism would be warranted, since the odds are good that the one you are investigating is wrong.

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Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

October 30th, 2010, 9:23 pm #4

of the CHRISTIAN God.

A person can acknowledge that he believes in "God" or a higher power or some intelligent design but .... that's never good enough for a Christian. Unless people believe in the CHRISTIAN god, they're automatically classified as atheists.

And so Christians continually keep making these ridiculous assertions that everyone is an atheist who doesn't believe in the Christian God ... AS DESCRIBED in the BIBLE!!

The BIBLE must be the ultimate authority. Not God himself but ... the BIBLE!! God cannot communicate with anyone -in the Christian view- except through the BIBLE!

And that's pretty weird when you think about it in terms of realism. An expert from a particular discipline or company can NEVER communicate with anyone directly, except by quoting some written manual?

-Vince
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

October 30th, 2010, 9:54 pm #5

Which I realize is not really necessary to say. But it bears repeating.

Yes, I had this experience in my life. "Debating" with a Christian, and they try to persuade me that there is a creator, and that life didn't just arise .. and so on. I agree. So they say "Well why aren't you a Christian?" lol. Like, that is the "default god".

You're right, these people don't worship God, they worship the Bible. They have made an idol of the Bible. I don't know where they got the idea that God said "This book is all I have to say", or even, "I wrote this book". The briefest research of how it as put together, makes that all seem ridiculous -- to an outsider! But some Christians will argue that God still speaks, but if whatever God says doesn't agree with how they interpret the Bible (yes, that is the Final Authority for them), well, then, it wasn't God .. but Satan -- who disguises himself as an angel of light and, um, quotes Bible verses. It's all very subjective.

At another forum a while back I saw a self-described "evangelical Christian" proving things about God, and Jesus -- by using the Bible. Well ya know, that "proof" only works if you are preaching to the choir. Anyone that accepts Bible verses as proof, is already a Christian. Or, not very smart. Not that the two are mutually exclusive, nor, is there a relationship, directly. Although, it is true that if you compare groups, atheists are more intelligent than believers of any religion.

There is no religion that claims absolute truth that can pass The Outsider Test. That is, there is no religion that claims absolute truth that is logical.

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Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

October 31st, 2010, 12:27 am #6

If the Bible didn't exist, Christian god wouldn't exist. His existence is totally reliant on the book; there is no external evidence to verify Bible-god's existence.

On the other hand, people like Seoc Colla don't need a book to verify their perception of God. They can't PROVE anything, of course ... but ... they can testify to their experience. And that's how it should be.

-Vince
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Joined: May 4th, 2005, 1:31 pm

October 31st, 2010, 3:12 am #7

Without Bible God, the vengeful idea of "Hell" would not be around anymore. Or less likely, I believe the Sumerians believed in a duality, good versus evil.

I cant' prove anything. No one can. No one knows.

That's the God's honest truth. Which baffles me, these are just guesses yet some people get up in arms and angry that you won't agree with their guess.

That's strange. I don't know, but this is what I guess -- you guess different? Anti-Christ God-hater!!

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Tim
Tim

October 31st, 2010, 5:57 am #8

We can not make them see, for GOD HIMSELF must choose them.
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Joined: October 1st, 2006, 10:04 am

October 31st, 2010, 7:58 pm #9

Without Bible God, the vengeful idea of "Hell" would not be around anymore. Or less likely, I believe the Sumerians believed in a duality, good versus evil.

I cant' prove anything. No one can. No one knows.

That's the God's honest truth. Which baffles me, these are just guesses yet some people get up in arms and angry that you won't agree with their guess.

That's strange. I don't know, but this is what I guess -- you guess different? Anti-Christ God-hater!!
Get used to it!!

Haha.

Luv
Goddess of Light
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Joined: February 16th, 2010, 8:01 pm

November 1st, 2010, 2:01 am #10

Will you deny Jesus is the Son of God Almighty?

Will you deny GOD made Jesus HIS only begotten Son?

Answer by posting with your chicken ass comments.
You hidden brute monster.

SPEAK IN THE NAME OF TIM!!!!
Weight! Click my heals 3 times, and Toto!!!!

Ozzy the master.
NO OZZY the MASTER!...

Will you deny Jesus?
Or will you wimp out and say what is TRUTH!?!?!?!?

IJIT Tim
Jesus was a simple preacher of the gospel, who brought the message of God's son to backslidden Jews who had stopped watching and waiting for the coming son of God.
I hope you don't whimp out on me...LOL

"I don't speak for God, but somebody has to speak for the bible story."
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