The Dawkins Christian debate brings nothing new or meaningful to the table

The Dawkins Christian debate brings nothing new or meaningful to the table

Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

July 25th, 2010, 12:18 pm #1

anyone who has an AA degree from collage had to take philosophy 101 and read some of the best minds of man debating religion, but so far, God has neither been proven or disproven. I got it in that class when I argued with my teacher and was put down like a child that had brain damage, but he still gave me an A+. Why? Because he knew it didn't matter what either of us believed, it couldn't be proven yet so why take a chance on being reprimanded by giving me a lesser grade just because NEITHER of us could prove our point?


What I do see now that I didn't see at the time of my class is the reason that all debates look so ridiculous to me at this point. First I thought it was because I already knew neither side could be proven but it goes beyond that. The reason it looks ridiculous at this point is because of HOW LIMITED both sides are in explaining the AFFECT either belief has on LIFE as a human being.

Christians at best say it helps them but they don't explain how to satisfy an athiest anymore than an athiest can explain the AFFECT of their point of view on the human condition. If there is no purpose for either belief then they both fail as a reason for debate in my opinion and yes, its an opinion only.


Debate without purpose is wasted time: Using terms like the flying spagehtti monster is so ridiculous that I can't believe it is used at all. Who on earth has established a purpose for such a creature so why would it find its way into the debate at all?

Christians like O'Riley explain that Christianity helps him but he doesn't explain HOW which would bring at least a "REAL" reason to chose Christianity over Dawkins' meaningless debating. HOW does atheism help anyone? A Christian can become scientifically informed as much as an athiest so what does atheisim bring to the table except to SEGRAGATE scientific facts into "meaningless" fodder, even as Christians use segragated Bible verses to prove why they believe the way they do.


Where is the meaningful proof that this debate should even be considered?

Christians debating atheisim is really absurd from a FACT finding point of view because the Bible states that the carnal mind can NOT RECEIVE THE THINGS OF GOD. Now, it should be able to grasp scientific data so there is no reason for Christians to deny science, but I say stick to science that is absolutely PROVEN or why should you accept it anymore than an athiest accepts a "belief" about God. Scientific theories in other words should be dismissed as quickly as any "belief" is dismissed by an athiest.


Here is what the outcome will be, mark my words


when BOTH Christians and athiests understand THEIR POSITION from a WHOLISTIC point of view, meaning how either side completely WORKS WITHIN THEIR OWN HUMANESS, there will be no debate because both sides will see eye to eye on the UNDERLYING REALITY of both true science and true religion.


true science will prove that life is "self giving" on every level even though it appears that there is a survival of the fitest on the level of observation with the human mind. The human mind is the thing that is most out of touch in both atheisim and religion which is why it can't see the UNDERLYING PURPOSE OF LIFE yet.


science and religion when it is seen from the EYE of the SOUL, the MAN in Gods image and likeness, will perceive the HAND OF THE CREATOR in life and need neither 'belief' and yes, atheism is just a belief till it is absolutely proven that God does NOT exist: The only way that can be proven is to explain HOW LIFE came about without the 'need' for a creator.


But then the athiest still needs to satisfy himself with an explanation of why science put us together the way it did and leave us meaningless, without purpose, not even as good as the "lesser creation" that is self giving while man is self taking only:

on a scientific level an athiest will prove that man doesn't deserve to exist if he becomes completely honest in the proof of the meaningless of existence without a creator who has a greater purpose than the one that can be scientifically observed about man.

an athiest will be left to hold that bag with himself as the biggest fact of uselessness there is:

how will that help him be happy with his findings?

maybe that will show him why religion was "created" by humans to find more meaning in life than the one that ultimatly turns out to be true in an evolutionary world without God.


and once he even begins to look deeper into the meaning of religion than mere belief, he will come to understand WHY God left us with his WORD and then life begins to make sense; There is a REDEMPTION of a fallen creation, while there is no redemption of a meaningless evolution that leaves us with the ultimate conclusion that man is the worst animal out there forever taking and leaving nothing worthwile behind in all LIFES findings.


my hope is that CHRISTIANS will also FIND THIS REDEMPTION so they can speak of it, witness of it, show how it works to be redeemed, transformed, and no longer destroying the earth; It is written God will destroy those who are destroying the earth, and he didn't add athiest or believer: To God there is no respector of persons. TO him his creation is good and he isn't going to let a belief in something stop him from his ultimate purpose for his creation which is redemption.


Believing in Jesus Christ just so you can FEEL better than an athiest is not going to prove that Christianity has any value, not even to Christians if they are honest about it.





Last edited by Harpazo on July 25th, 2010, 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

July 25th, 2010, 12:41 pm #2



<p align="right">
Isn't life wonderful Brain? Just think
we started out as lab mice forced to
spend the whole day working our way
through frustrating mazes that went
absolutely nowhere. Now we get to do
what humans do!


... it is an open and shut case already since theists cannot construct a deductive, valid and sound argument showing the existence of the biblical god whereas atheist can constuct a deductive, valid and sound argument showing the non-existence of the bibical god claimed to exist.


<p align="left">Going In Circles

The excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it become
indispensably the experts in applying it, effectually
revealing the exact opposite of apparent intent
thereby granting the courtesy of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze

<p align="center">After all, inference demands explicit entails implicit
Therefore, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then
what it necessarily infers or implies must logically
be true as well. If not, then it is incontrovertibly
axiomatic that there is something amiss .....
with the explicitly posed.

<p align="right">_______________________
I like hu-mans. Really
They do funnee stuffs

They seem to live with the
impression that they is some
sorts of omniscient - you can
thus always depend on them
to tell you exactly what your
thoughts and feelings is.

Handy

<p align="left">___________________________
It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

<p align="left">
There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22


New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!

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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

July 25th, 2010, 12:45 pm #3

an athiest IGNORES the very science that is most important to understand, his own HUMANISM leaves a bitter taste on the tongue.

science includes psychology and sociology and anthropology


if you ignore these sciences you aren't being very scientific.

I know its difficult to transcend ourselves enough to really study ourselves without a "MEANS" for transcendance, but studying nature without taking us into consideration is just plain stupidity and I hate to use that word for anyone.
Last edited by Harpazo on July 25th, 2010, 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

July 25th, 2010, 12:49 pm #4



<p align="right">
Isn't life wonderful Brain? Just think
we started out as lab mice forced to
spend the whole day working our way
through frustrating mazes that went
absolutely nowhere. Now we get to do
what humans do!


... merely in another wording.

Kudos to you then. <img alt="happy.gif" src="/images/happy.gif" width="14" height="14">
<p align="left">Going In Circles

The excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it become
indispensably the experts in applying it, effectually
revealing the exact opposite of apparent intent
thereby granting the courtesy of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze

<p align="center">After all, inference demands explicit entails implicit
Therefore, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then
what it necessarily infers or implies must logically
be true as well. If not, then it is incontrovertibly
axiomatic that there is something amiss .....
with the explicitly posed.

<p align="right">_______________________
I like hu-mans. Really
They do funnee stuffs

They seem to live with the
impression that they is some
sorts of omniscient - you can
thus always depend on them
to tell you exactly what your
thoughts and feelings is.

Handy

<p align="left">___________________________
It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

<p align="left">
There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22


New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... tworks.gif">
Last edited by JVH on July 25th, 2010, 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

July 25th, 2010, 12:55 pm #5

READ WHAT I SAY

then you will see that YOUR responses don't take what I say into consideration beyond your "point of view"; thats not good enough for real dialogue:)

not that you need to have real dialogue
it may not suit you enough to attempt it

your answers are as PAT as someone who takes a few scriptures out of the Bible to make their point of view .....only to themselves


I think you are smarter than that
thats all

and kudos for giving me kudos
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Striver
Striver

July 25th, 2010, 1:03 pm #6

anyone who has an AA degree from collage had to take philosophy 101 and read some of the best minds of man debating religion, but so far, God has neither been proven or disproven. I got it in that class when I argued with my teacher and was put down like a child that had brain damage, but he still gave me an A+. Why? Because he knew it didn't matter what either of us believed, it couldn't be proven yet so why take a chance on being reprimanded by giving me a lesser grade just because NEITHER of us could prove our point?


What I do see now that I didn't see at the time of my class is the reason that all debates look so ridiculous to me at this point. First I thought it was because I already knew neither side could be proven but it goes beyond that. The reason it looks ridiculous at this point is because of HOW LIMITED both sides are in explaining the AFFECT either belief has on LIFE as a human being.

Christians at best say it helps them but they don't explain how to satisfy an athiest anymore than an athiest can explain the AFFECT of their point of view on the human condition. If there is no purpose for either belief then they both fail as a reason for debate in my opinion and yes, its an opinion only.


Debate without purpose is wasted time: Using terms like the flying spagehtti monster is so ridiculous that I can't believe it is used at all. Who on earth has established a purpose for such a creature so why would it find its way into the debate at all?

Christians like O'Riley explain that Christianity helps him but he doesn't explain HOW which would bring at least a "REAL" reason to chose Christianity over Dawkins' meaningless debating. HOW does atheism help anyone? A Christian can become scientifically informed as much as an athiest so what does atheisim bring to the table except to SEGRAGATE scientific facts into "meaningless" fodder, even as Christians use segragated Bible verses to prove why they believe the way they do.


Where is the meaningful proof that this debate should even be considered?

Christians debating atheisim is really absurd from a FACT finding point of view because the Bible states that the carnal mind can NOT RECEIVE THE THINGS OF GOD. Now, it should be able to grasp scientific data so there is no reason for Christians to deny science, but I say stick to science that is absolutely PROVEN or why should you accept it anymore than an athiest accepts a "belief" about God. Scientific theories in other words should be dismissed as quickly as any "belief" is dismissed by an athiest.


Here is what the outcome will be, mark my words


when BOTH Christians and athiests understand THEIR POSITION from a WHOLISTIC point of view, meaning how either side completely WORKS WITHIN THEIR OWN HUMANESS, there will be no debate because both sides will see eye to eye on the UNDERLYING REALITY of both true science and true religion.


true science will prove that life is "self giving" on every level even though it appears that there is a survival of the fitest on the level of observation with the human mind. The human mind is the thing that is most out of touch in both atheisim and religion which is why it can't see the UNDERLYING PURPOSE OF LIFE yet.


science and religion when it is seen from the EYE of the SOUL, the MAN in Gods image and likeness, will perceive the HAND OF THE CREATOR in life and need neither 'belief' and yes, atheism is just a belief till it is absolutely proven that God does NOT exist: The only way that can be proven is to explain HOW LIFE came about without the 'need' for a creator.


But then the athiest still needs to satisfy himself with an explanation of why science put us together the way it did and leave us meaningless, without purpose, not even as good as the "lesser creation" that is self giving while man is self taking only:

on a scientific level an athiest will prove that man doesn't deserve to exist if he becomes completely honest in the proof of the meaningless of existence without a creator who has a greater purpose than the one that can be scientifically observed about man.

an athiest will be left to hold that bag with himself as the biggest fact of uselessness there is:

how will that help him be happy with his findings?

maybe that will show him why religion was "created" by humans to find more meaning in life than the one that ultimatly turns out to be true in an evolutionary world without God.


and once he even begins to look deeper into the meaning of religion than mere belief, he will come to understand WHY God left us with his WORD and then life begins to make sense; There is a REDEMPTION of a fallen creation, while there is no redemption of a meaningless evolution that leaves us with the ultimate conclusion that man is the worst animal out there forever taking and leaving nothing worthwile behind in all LIFES findings.


my hope is that CHRISTIANS will also FIND THIS REDEMPTION so they can speak of it, witness of it, show how it works to be redeemed, transformed, and no longer destroying the earth; It is written God will destroy those who are destroying the earth, and he didn't add athiest or believer: To God there is no respector of persons. TO him his creation is good and he isn't going to let a belief in something stop him from his ultimate purpose for his creation which is redemption.


Believing in Jesus Christ just so you can FEEL better than an athiest is not going to prove that Christianity has any value, not even to Christians if they are honest about it.




So crystallised are orthodox Christians in their God in the sky (even though their Bibles tell them they are Gods) that they, not being accustomed to anything but agreement in their mutual admiration societies called churches, are shocked to hear their position...positions.., meet disagreement. As it turns out, most atheists agree their has to be a Cause of all that is, but that Cause does not take the form of a Zeus look-a-like sitting on a throne is a remote place called heaven. Those incapable to make the transition from the mystical to the mental are in for some rough times. Humanity is in a period of transition; transiting out of the mystical and into the mental. The first part of this transition involves having learned the truth about the history of Churchanity, mistakenly called Christianity. For quite a while these transiting people feeling they have been lied-to, duped, are really pissed and have somewhat less than kind words for those trying to prevent-delay the period of transition. The sight of a bloody Jesus hanging on a cross evokes nausea, not "REJOICING" from mental people. Where Orthies see a loving Father in heaven, thinking people see a Psychotic whose vanity could only be placated by the agonizing death of his son.
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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

July 25th, 2010, 1:18 pm #7

READ WHAT I SAY

then you will see that YOUR responses don't take what I say into consideration beyond your "point of view"; thats not good enough for real dialogue:)

not that you need to have real dialogue
it may not suit you enough to attempt it

your answers are as PAT as someone who takes a few scriptures out of the Bible to make their point of view .....only to themselves


I think you are smarter than that
thats all

and kudos for giving me kudos
<p align="right">
Isn't life wonderful Brain? Just think
we started out as lab mice forced to
spend the whole day working our way
through frustrating mazes that went
absolutely nowhere. Now we get to do
what humans do!


My post didn't take away what you said - as you said yourself, it said what you said.


<p align="left">Going In Circles

The excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it become
indispensably the experts in applying it, effectually
revealing the exact opposite of apparent intent
thereby granting the courtesy of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze

<p align="center">After all, inference demands explicit entails implicit
Therefore, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then
what it necessarily infers or implies must logically
be true as well. If not, then it is incontrovertibly
axiomatic that there is something amiss .....
with the explicitly posed.

<p align="right">_______________________
I like hu-mans. Really
They do funnee stuffs

They seem to live with the
impression that they is some
sorts of omniscient - you can
thus always depend on them
to tell you exactly what your
thoughts and feelings is.

Handy

<p align="left">___________________________
It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

<p align="left">
There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22


New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!

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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

July 25th, 2010, 1:24 pm #8

but I said more than that.....I would love to hear what your answers have to say about other things that I say besides the fact that God can't be proven anymore than atheism

I guess Im interested in talking to you above the usual responses
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

July 25th, 2010, 1:26 pm #9

So crystallised are orthodox Christians in their God in the sky (even though their Bibles tell them they are Gods) that they, not being accustomed to anything but agreement in their mutual admiration societies called churches, are shocked to hear their position...positions.., meet disagreement. As it turns out, most atheists agree their has to be a Cause of all that is, but that Cause does not take the form of a Zeus look-a-like sitting on a throne is a remote place called heaven. Those incapable to make the transition from the mystical to the mental are in for some rough times. Humanity is in a period of transition; transiting out of the mystical and into the mental. The first part of this transition involves having learned the truth about the history of Churchanity, mistakenly called Christianity. For quite a while these transiting people feeling they have been lied-to, duped, are really pissed and have somewhat less than kind words for those trying to prevent-delay the period of transition. The sight of a bloody Jesus hanging on a cross evokes nausea, not "REJOICING" from mental people. Where Orthies see a loving Father in heaven, thinking people see a Psychotic whose vanity could only be placated by the agonizing death of his son.
doesn't mean anyone believes in a Zeus like being in the sky


you don't know HOW OTHERS experience Jesus Christ, so why make that PAT ANSWER for all who believe in him?

do you even know what a Zeus like being is like?

I mean even I understand Zeus was a metaphor to the Greeks, esoterically understood;

why don't you?
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

July 25th, 2010, 1:34 pm #10

So crystallised are orthodox Christians in their God in the sky (even though their Bibles tell them they are Gods) that they, not being accustomed to anything but agreement in their mutual admiration societies called churches, are shocked to hear their position...positions.., meet disagreement. As it turns out, most atheists agree their has to be a Cause of all that is, but that Cause does not take the form of a Zeus look-a-like sitting on a throne is a remote place called heaven. Those incapable to make the transition from the mystical to the mental are in for some rough times. Humanity is in a period of transition; transiting out of the mystical and into the mental. The first part of this transition involves having learned the truth about the history of Churchanity, mistakenly called Christianity. For quite a while these transiting people feeling they have been lied-to, duped, are really pissed and have somewhat less than kind words for those trying to prevent-delay the period of transition. The sight of a bloody Jesus hanging on a cross evokes nausea, not "REJOICING" from mental people. Where Orthies see a loving Father in heaven, thinking people see a Psychotic whose vanity could only be placated by the agonizing death of his son.
yes, I understand the reaction to a bloody Jesus hanging on a cross, but that reaction is meant to be invoked;

the carnal mind can not grasp the "affect" of the fall of man without some kind of "IMAGE" to show it in GRAPHIC terms; this is the same reason the Jews use the slaughtering of animals; to evoke SYMPATHY for the animals that die for the sins of the people.

I know from my own experience that this sympathy comes with A TRUE CONSCIENCE already so these images do nothing for the people that THINK of themselves as above such a gross representation of God:

they don't need a means for dealing with the sins of mankind: these people don't see anything wrong with what man does so an image of God hanging on a tree beaten to a bloody pulp, dying with agony is just a gross picture of God, instead of a picture of the payment of what MAN DOES TO MAN every day without the ability to redeem himself .


In reality this picture is of "US" who are the 'body of Jesus' that he lays his head upon, but thats for another day.
Last edited by Harpazo on July 25th, 2010, 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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