Question for the "unbelievers", atheists, et. al. of the board.

Question for the "unbelievers", atheists, et. al. of the board.

Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

June 21st, 2011, 11:59 pm #1


Do you deny the existence of a "greater good", or in other words deny that there's something bigger than ourselves?

I understand taking exception to the claims made by religions and religious folk. And to a large degree, I agree with taking exception to many of the social rituals that are not much more than "pomp & ceremony", rites of passage for social acceptance, and acts of submission to a set of norms & taboos.

I am curious, though, to understand to what degree the "anti-religious crew" here accepts the existence, or possible existence, of something bigger than ourselves. No need to label it anything other than that.

Yes, I have chosen terms carefully in an attempt to avoid the "God vs. no-God" argument and the "what is the meaning of theist/atheist/agnostic/anti-theist/deist" argument. If your desire and/or position is to pursue that direction for discussion, please refrain from replying here and start a new thread with that as the topic. It is not my intent or desire to re-hash all that again. No offense to anyone, just saying and trying to be as clear as I can.


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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

June 22nd, 2011, 8:35 am #2

<p align="center">.

According to the holographic nature of existence theory, our 3D personages are mere reflections of our true selves playing out our parts in this 3D world as designed for us by our true selves for that purpose  -_-  as an analogy ... think computer games and gamers ..... (the last 20 seconds or so of "Men In Black" pictures that theory/scenario as well)
<p align="center"><img alt="platoscave.gif" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... oscave.gif">
click the pic

Infinite regression of the sorts ... while the source ... Ï ... remains as is.......

So, according to the theory then, there is no "greater good" nor is there something "bigger than ourselves". It's all about battling infinite boredom ... and as a side note ... it's why the last thing we'd want is 'to return to the source' ... as so-called new-agers, and others ... keep proposing ...........
<p align="center"><img border="0" alt="" src="http://www.fiero.nl/forum/smilies/smiley_drool.gif">

Our World May Be A Giant Hologram



rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : incontrovertibility
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -


New!! Improved!! Now With CD-Formula!!
<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... tworks.gif">

CD: short for inevitability
Last edited by JVH on June 22nd, 2011, 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: September 30th, 2009, 7:55 pm

June 22nd, 2011, 12:39 pm #3

Do you deny the existence of a "greater good", or in other words deny that there's something bigger than ourselves?

I understand taking exception to the claims made by religions and religious folk. And to a large degree, I agree with taking exception to many of the social rituals that are not much more than "pomp & ceremony", rites of passage for social acceptance, and acts of submission to a set of norms & taboos.

I am curious, though, to understand to what degree the "anti-religious crew" here accepts the existence, or possible existence, of something bigger than ourselves. No need to label it anything other than that.

Yes, I have chosen terms carefully in an attempt to avoid the "God vs. no-God" argument and the "what is the meaning of theist/atheist/agnostic/anti-theist/deist" argument. If your desire and/or position is to pursue that direction for discussion, please refrain from replying here and start a new thread with that as the topic. It is not my intent or desire to re-hash all that again. No offense to anyone, just saying and trying to be as clear as I can.

Noob said: Do you deny the existence of a "greater good", or in other words deny that there's something bigger than ourselves?

No, I don't deny that it's possible that there's something "bigger than ourselves" somewhere out in the Universe. I also don't deny that there might very well be a giant green Leprechaun that is hiding behind one of the moons of Saturn.

In both cases, we have no evidence of these, so I see no reason to believe in either one.

Noob said: I am curious, though, to understand to what degree the "anti-religious crew" here accepts the existence, or possible existence, of something bigger than ourselves.

As I said, anything is possible. It's possible Yvonne's version of god is real. It's possible Tim's giant invisible man who lives in the sky is real. It's possible that Mondo's deistic, non-interfering god is real. However, I have seen no evidence to believe in any of those deities. If they are real, they leave no evidence to support a belief in them. So I don't believe in them.

Noob said: Yes, I have chosen terms carefully in an attempt to avoid the "God vs. no-God" argument and the "what is the meaning of theist/atheist/agnostic/anti-theist/deist" argument.

It doesn't really matter what you call it. God, greater good, giant invisible man who lives in the sky. They all work. But until evidence is provided that would lead me to believe in it, I still put it in the same bucket as Bigfoot, fairies, sprites, and Santa Claus.

Just because it's possible for leprechauns to exist, that doesn't mean it is rational to believe in leprechauns.

"Religious people argue that atheists cannot prove that there is no god, therefore atheism is a faith; It's the faith that there is no god, and we're at a standstill. Bertrand Russell annihilated this argument virtually a century ago with his famous teapot analogy. Can you prove that there isn't a china teapot in elliptical orbit around the Sun at this moment? Well, no. Is it therefore reasonable to believe in such a teapot? No. Is it reasonable to be agnostic with respect to such a teapot? No. End of argument. The burden is never upon the atheist to prove the absence of celestial teapots." -- Sam Harris

-----------------------------------------------
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion." -- Robert M. Pirsig
Last edited by edstrange13 on June 22nd, 2011, 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 17th, 2006, 10:37 pm

June 22nd, 2011, 12:44 pm #4

...a non-personal greater good?

As an atheist or agnostic, if you knew an 80 year old woman lived next door -- didn't know the lady personally, just maybe had seen her a few times -- and her house was on fire, would you take reasonable measures to save her? Would you take heroic measures to save her, if you thought you could save her?

Why or why not?
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

June 22nd, 2011, 12:52 pm #5

<p align="center">.

According to the holographic nature of existence theory, our 3D personages are mere reflections of our true selves playing out our parts in this 3D world as designed for us by our true selves for that purpose  -_-  as an analogy ... think computer games and gamers ..... (the last 20 seconds or so of "Men In Black" pictures that theory/scenario as well)
<p align="center"><img alt="platoscave.gif" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... oscave.gif">
click the pic

Infinite regression of the sorts ... while the source ... Ï ... remains as is.......

So, according to the theory then, there is no "greater good" nor is there something "bigger than ourselves". It's all about battling infinite boredom ... and as a side note ... it's why the last thing we'd want is 'to return to the source' ... as so-called new-agers, and others ... keep proposing ...........
<p align="center"><img border="0" alt="" src="http://www.fiero.nl/forum/smilies/smiley_drool.gif">

Our World May Be A Giant Hologram



rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : incontrovertibility
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -


New!! Improved!! Now With CD-Formula!!
<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... tworks.gif">

CD: short for inevitability
it explains the prodigal sons went on a journey (gamers) but when his battery pack of life ran out, he didn't know how to get out of the game.

The story is that THE SOURCE itself came as the same kind of being and gave his life for the lost gamer so he could return......by joining himself to his spirit/energy/will and took him back through the singularity and become one with the good that never left.


whether it was an intended game or not, the truth is, we don't know our way home and the Bible tells us how to get home. If you want to keep playing and suffer the maze of confusion and lack and detours you didn't count on before you started playing, then by all means ............stay............and play

as for me, the game got way too serious and too painful and my compassion for all lost gamers made me want to return and I did..........

Im sitting in that postion of watching the rest of the gamers and even though I know that LOVE IS ALL THERE IS, the lost gamers are sad to watch and my own form, I will take boredom....

I know its not boring however...........the HOLINESS that the SOURCE IS MADE OF, the complete beauty and glory and abundant reality is everything.........

while it is true that the gods wanted to make man in their image and likeness to play out their DESIRE to be fullfilled after creating LACK, they gave a limit to their game and the time has come for man, the creation to RISE to that next level of the GAME


the gods return to the source and the man they create becomes "ONE" with them. Its like the game takes on a totally cool new everlasting ability to EN-JOY being filled forever, while maintaining the ability to RECEIVE

that was the will of God from the beginning......to create a thing that could be filled by the source and yet also be "LIKE" the source by giving that filling or LOVE to other gamers or parts of this WHOLE BODY called MAN


its a serious game.......in that God has no intention of just returning to himself WITH OUT US, the creation:


he wants us to be LIKE HIM........and play forever........


fight him if you can
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Joined: September 30th, 2009, 7:55 pm

June 22nd, 2011, 12:53 pm #6

...a non-personal greater good?

As an atheist or agnostic, if you knew an 80 year old woman lived next door -- didn't know the lady personally, just maybe had seen her a few times -- and her house was on fire, would you take reasonable measures to save her? Would you take heroic measures to save her, if you thought you could save her?

Why or why not?
Kate said: what about a non-personal greater good?

Whether it's personal or non-personal is irrelevant. I see no evidence of it, personal or non-personal. So, I guess I gotta ask...

Do you have evidence of this greater good? No, you say?

Then how do you know it's there?

And if you have no way to detect it... why believe in it?

NOTE: "There just HAS to be" isn't a rational answer. There doesn't "have" to be anything.

Kate said: As an atheist or agnostic, if you knew an 80 year old woman lived next door -- didn't know the lady personally, just maybe had seen her a few times -- and her house was on fire, would you take reasonable measures to save her? Would you take heroic measures to save her, if you thought you could save her?

Why or why not?


Ah, the "you can't be a good person without god" argument.

Of course I'd try to save her, even if she was a perfect stranger. I'd risk my life to save her. You see, atheists do good... not because some deity wants them to be good... they're good because it's the right thing to do. And considering that atheists don't believe in an afterlife, I would do whatever I could to save the old lady and the only life she will ever have.

Which is more noble? The theist who does good because they want to get into heaven, or the atheist because he cares about the welfare of his fellow humans?

-----------------------------------------------
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion." -- Robert M. Pirsig
Last edited by edstrange13 on June 22nd, 2011, 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 1st, 2008, 11:52 pm

June 22nd, 2011, 1:19 pm #7

it explains the prodigal sons went on a journey (gamers) but when his battery pack of life ran out, he didn't know how to get out of the game.

The story is that THE SOURCE itself came as the same kind of being and gave his life for the lost gamer so he could return......by joining himself to his spirit/energy/will and took him back through the singularity and become one with the good that never left.


whether it was an intended game or not, the truth is, we don't know our way home and the Bible tells us how to get home. If you want to keep playing and suffer the maze of confusion and lack and detours you didn't count on before you started playing, then by all means ............stay............and play

as for me, the game got way too serious and too painful and my compassion for all lost gamers made me want to return and I did..........

Im sitting in that postion of watching the rest of the gamers and even though I know that LOVE IS ALL THERE IS, the lost gamers are sad to watch and my own form, I will take boredom....

I know its not boring however...........the HOLINESS that the SOURCE IS MADE OF, the complete beauty and glory and abundant reality is everything.........

while it is true that the gods wanted to make man in their image and likeness to play out their DESIRE to be fullfilled after creating LACK, they gave a limit to their game and the time has come for man, the creation to RISE to that next level of the GAME


the gods return to the source and the man they create becomes "ONE" with them. Its like the game takes on a totally cool new everlasting ability to EN-JOY being filled forever, while maintaining the ability to RECEIVE

that was the will of God from the beginning......to create a thing that could be filled by the source and yet also be "LIKE" the source by giving that filling or LOVE to other gamers or parts of this WHOLE BODY called MAN


its a serious game.......in that God has no intention of just returning to himself WITH OUT US, the creation:


he wants us to be LIKE HIM........and play forever........


fight him if you can
gamers that don't want to return are not yet out of chips so to speak. The story of the prodigal son is that he asked for his portion of life (chips) to play but he ran out and came to himself and said, its better to be a servant in the fathers kingdom than to stay with the "desires to wallow in the dirt":

the fathers kingdom is the INETNET of LOVE or playing the game as the GOOD FOR ALL creation......


the gamers who don't want to give up their "taste" for sensual satisfaction, give up the all as long as they can so they can be FILLED in these 'senses' they created to be satisfied for a time by feeling the lack and filling over and over again.


bad news is when you no longer know where the true filling is, the EMPTINESS becomes a bottomless pit......and you want everyone elses "stuff" because you don't have enough chips for yourself

but everyone elses stuff has a lot of "interst", indebetness tied to it......hence karma, paying what you can never repay....


I see the game from the position of the RETURN and I try to point out the WAY BACK so everyone can stop trying to steal someone else's chips......sparks of life.....


in these last days of the game, these sparks of life are less and less available and the gamers are more and more empty of the life force that they need to play.........


things get ugly when everybody wants your stuff
every day is a new day to die to the old and live to the newness of life
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Joined: April 17th, 2006, 10:37 pm

June 22nd, 2011, 1:19 pm #8

Kate said: what about a non-personal greater good?

Whether it's personal or non-personal is irrelevant. I see no evidence of it, personal or non-personal. So, I guess I gotta ask...

Do you have evidence of this greater good? No, you say?

Then how do you know it's there?

And if you have no way to detect it... why believe in it?

NOTE: "There just HAS to be" isn't a rational answer. There doesn't "have" to be anything.

Kate said: As an atheist or agnostic, if you knew an 80 year old woman lived next door -- didn't know the lady personally, just maybe had seen her a few times -- and her house was on fire, would you take reasonable measures to save her? Would you take heroic measures to save her, if you thought you could save her?

Why or why not?


Ah, the "you can't be a good person without god" argument.

Of course I'd try to save her, even if she was a perfect stranger. I'd risk my life to save her. You see, atheists do good... not because some deity wants them to be good... they're good because it's the right thing to do. And considering that atheists don't believe in an afterlife, I would do whatever I could to save the old lady and the only life she will ever have.

Which is more noble? The theist who does good because they want to get into heaven, or the atheist because he cares about the welfare of his fellow humans?

-----------------------------------------------
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion." -- Robert M. Pirsig
I am not arguing the existence of God, I am asking if you, as an atheist or agnostic, believe in a non-personal greater good. A non-entity good, if you will. Clearly you do, because you said you would save the old woman even if there was nothing in it for you, you didn't know her and had no personal stake in it, and you don't even believe in an afterlife. You would save her because it's the right thing to do -- the good thing to do.

Doc S: Do you have evidence of this greater good? No, you say? Then how do you know it's there?

Actually, I would say yes, I have evidence. Your answer that you would do good because it's the right thing to do is some evidence that "good" exists. And there are countless other non-believers who believe in doing the good thing when given a choice.

Doc, I'm not a Fundy, nor do I play one on TV. My beliefs about God and the Bible are considered unconventional by some, and heretical by others. =) If anyone asks me a question about Christianity or the Bible, I have a pretty good working knowledge of both and can answer them, but I may or may not actually agree with the "traditional Christian" explanation -- I try to specify when I do or don't agree.

But rest assured, I have absolutely no intention at all of trying to persuade or convince you that God exists, or that you should be a Christian. I'm just trying to have a philosophical conversation with you and find some common ground and shared ideals.

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Joined: September 30th, 2009, 7:55 pm

June 22nd, 2011, 1:38 pm #9

My apologies for misunderstanding. If I had a nickel every time a theist tried to use the "only theists can be good" argument on me, I'd be a very rich man.

Kate said: Clearly you do, because you said you would save the old woman even if there was nothing in it for you, you didn't know her and had no personal stake in it, and you don't even believe in an afterlife. You would save her because it's the right thing to do -- the good thing to do.

What you call "greater good", I call "altruism". Maybe they're the same. But it's hardly evidence of a universal, supernatural deity.

Kate said: But rest assured, I have absolutely no intention at all of trying to persuade or convince you that God exists, or that you should be a Christian.

As I said to Yvonne yesterday, I'm actually very easy to convince. It just takes evidence that is demonstrable to a claim.

Kate said: I'm just trying to have a philosophical conversation with you and find some common ground and shared ideals.

My favorite kind of conversation.

-----------------------------------------------
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion." -- Robert M. Pirsig
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Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

June 22nd, 2011, 1:49 pm #10

Noob said: Do you deny the existence of a "greater good", or in other words deny that there's something bigger than ourselves?

No, I don't deny that it's possible that there's something "bigger than ourselves" somewhere out in the Universe. I also don't deny that there might very well be a giant green Leprechaun that is hiding behind one of the moons of Saturn.

In both cases, we have no evidence of these, so I see no reason to believe in either one.

Noob said: I am curious, though, to understand to what degree the "anti-religious crew" here accepts the existence, or possible existence, of something bigger than ourselves.

As I said, anything is possible. It's possible Yvonne's version of god is real. It's possible Tim's giant invisible man who lives in the sky is real. It's possible that Mondo's deistic, non-interfering god is real. However, I have seen no evidence to believe in any of those deities. If they are real, they leave no evidence to support a belief in them. So I don't believe in them.

Noob said: Yes, I have chosen terms carefully in an attempt to avoid the "God vs. no-God" argument and the "what is the meaning of theist/atheist/agnostic/anti-theist/deist" argument.

It doesn't really matter what you call it. God, greater good, giant invisible man who lives in the sky. They all work. But until evidence is provided that would lead me to believe in it, I still put it in the same bucket as Bigfoot, fairies, sprites, and Santa Claus.

Just because it's possible for leprechauns to exist, that doesn't mean it is rational to believe in leprechauns.

"Religious people argue that atheists cannot prove that there is no god, therefore atheism is a faith; It's the faith that there is no god, and we're at a standstill. Bertrand Russell annihilated this argument virtually a century ago with his famous teapot analogy. Can you prove that there isn't a china teapot in elliptical orbit around the Sun at this moment? Well, no. Is it therefore reasonable to believe in such a teapot? No. Is it reasonable to be agnostic with respect to such a teapot? No. End of argument. The burden is never upon the atheist to prove the absence of celestial teapots." -- Sam Harris

-----------------------------------------------
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion." -- Robert M. Pirsig
Belief is imagination at work. Imagination is powerful. In fact, we ALL live our lives systematically because we BELIEVE that's the way we should live. We imagine a good life and then we make it happen (as best we can).

If humans were to have no imagination or belief ... nothing would ever change because to believe in change is futile since the thing believed in has never been proven.

Animals live like that. They exist, they survive, but they probably don't believe in anything and so they live pretty well exactly like their forbears lived hundreds of years ago. That's not to say that they're not happy but .. they don't change much.

Humans change and develop and CREATE stuff primarily because they BELIEVE that there's a reason for "progress". And ... it helps keep life interesting. There's really no need for progress. We could live like animals too. The world would be no worse off without all the modern technology we have and so there's no need to believe in anything.

But, that will never stop a certain group of people who BELIEVE we serve a higher purpose than mere existence and survival.

So ...

If one doesn't wish to believe in anything or any higher purpose than one's own existence, then fine ... just exist.

Others believe in a higher purpose and there's no need to explain it, really: it's what drives "progress."

-Vince
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