Another stab at Psalms 14:1 ; 53:1

Another stab at Psalms 14:1 ; 53:1

Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

September 11th, 2010, 9:42 am #1

"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God."

This little piece of both these (virtually identical and evidently from the same source) psalms is frequently thrown out at atheists, by bigoted Christians, as the ultimate Biblical condemnation of atheism. However, when the REST of the two psalms is taken into consideration in context, it doesn't make sense that the psalmist was speaking about a particular group of people who proclaimed themselves to be atheists because he speaks of a large MASS of people who are all evil bastards! Of course, Christians who recklessly fling this verse in the face of declared atheists never bother to quote any of the rest of the psalm, (and probably don't even know what the rest says!)

It always bothered me, (when rarely I happened to read these psalms) that the rest of the psalms didn't seem to relate to the first verse. I mean, the first verse speaks of "the fool" in singular ... but then, the rest of it speaks of a large group of people, and in fact, when apostle Paul references this psalm in Romans 3, he uses it to describe EVERYONE! The entire WORLD ... yes! Paul then, EVIDENTLY did not consider the first verse to be talking about some small group of atheists.

We need to remember as well, that back when that psalm was written, there was NO PROBLEM with atheists and NO THREAT from atheism either! EVERYONE back then was superstitious and ALL believed in the existence of gods. Nowhere else in the Bible do we find any bemoaning the spreading of atheism.

So it's totally weird and out of character for this ONE psalm to suddenly come out and address atheism. It also creates an inexplicable disjoint in context to consider the first verse to be speaking of some strange esoteric "cult" that denied the existence of the gods and/but then go on to generalize about a LOT of people.

So what DOES that first verse actually mean then?

Well, I looked it up in my own electronic Bible (KJV) and checked out all of the Strong's number meanings and was rather surprised that the translation wording appears to be rather "supplemental." The words "there is" are in italics so we know right away that those words were non-existent in the Hebrew text. That leaves us with, "the fool hath said in his heart, no God."

But then there's another surprise! The word "no" ALSO appears to be missing. Here's a print screen which you can look at for yourself. (It's not possible to show the arrow -> characters in a copy and paste so I have to show it with a print screen instead).



There's only ONE Strong's reference # after the phrase "there is no God" and that's (0430). This word is "Elohim" ... which is "God" in English. So according to the print screen, the verse would literally read, "The fool hath said in his heart, God."

Now, allegedly, there IS some kind of negative indicator in there but I don't understand why a Strong's reference number wouldn't have been included for that ... IF it exists. That word is supposed to be, "ayin" -Strong's reference #369/370! What gives with that, eh? Different manuscript or something?

So what does the word "ayin" mean? Well THAT'S kind of interesting too! It actually means "whence, where, who" and actually not "no."

Supposing then, we include this word "ayin." We then get .... The fool hath said in his heart, whence God?"

How does that all make sense? Well I'll tell ye boyze ... I had a DREAM about this yesterday -no word of a lie- and you can take it for what you can imagine it to be ... my subconscious or an answer from outer space!~

In my dream, a voice said, "The philanderer has said in his heart, there is no wife." As I pondered that after waking up, it suddenly made perfect sense!

The philanderer doesn't deny the existence of his wife ... when he NEEDS his wife! When he's on the prowl though, he tries to put his wife OUT of his mind as if she didn't exist.

It's DENIAL the psalm is talking about. Double-mindedness. ("The double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." -James 1:8 ; 4:8 )

It actually ties in quite well with 2 Timothy 3:5 as well, "Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof." Denial through avoidance of the truth.

If you check the various commentators on this psalm, you'll find that they pretty well all agree that "within his heart" indicates an effort to deceive himself. So they all go into .... the atheist BELIEVES in God but tries his damndest to DECEIVE himself into believing there isn't a God.

However, when you think about that more carefully, if the atheist were trying to convince himself inwardly of the opposite to what he declares outwardly, then the atheist would secretly BELIEVE in God while saying outwardly that he didn't. That would mean, the verse should read, "The atheist hath said within his heart, there IS a God." If the atheist says within his heart, "there is no God" then he's being totally consistent by saying the very same thing out loud which he believes in his heart! Thus, there would be no inconsistency. The psalmist though, was talking about inconsistency and describes the result of that inconsistency in the rest of the psalm.

-Vince
Quote
Like
Share

Seoc Colla
Seoc Colla

September 11th, 2010, 10:08 am #2

This post shows the futility of theology. To claim that someone 'says in his heart' suggests putting words in the mouth of another person whom he disagrees with on some point or other.

Clearly the self-appointed good guy can hear conversations in another's heart? Really?

Aren't folk admonished to be true to themselves? Isn't this clean honesty? But now the self-appointed good guy labels the honest guy an 'atheist' - which is 'bad'.
How's that for double-speak and dishonesty?

The multi-headed Christian gods seem to again be in need of another make over, with clear definitions for the sake of clarity. For example, how could a native Palestinian-born Jewish guy turn into a white European God? Turning water into wine is scientifically impossible, yet turning one lot of racial characteristics into a completely set is not even questioned.
Or doesn't truth matter?
Quote
Share

Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

September 11th, 2010, 11:42 am #3

if the psalmist had been talking about atheists. He wasn't though; he was talking about fools.

Surely you've observed foolish behavior yourself ... and had your own impressions of what the foolish person must be thinking?

For instance, what would motivate an internet "Reverend" or "Pastor" to connect to a forum through a proxy server so that his IP is masked ... and then talk dirty to some poster he didn't like? Or to visit pornography sites, by the same token?

Wouldn't YOU make some kind of assessment about his probable secret thought life?

-Vince
Quote
Like
Share

Striver
Striver

September 11th, 2010, 3:03 pm #4

"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God."

This little piece of both these (virtually identical and evidently from the same source) psalms is frequently thrown out at atheists, by bigoted Christians, as the ultimate Biblical condemnation of atheism. However, when the REST of the two psalms is taken into consideration in context, it doesn't make sense that the psalmist was speaking about a particular group of people who proclaimed themselves to be atheists because he speaks of a large MASS of people who are all evil bastards! Of course, Christians who recklessly fling this verse in the face of declared atheists never bother to quote any of the rest of the psalm, (and probably don't even know what the rest says!)

It always bothered me, (when rarely I happened to read these psalms) that the rest of the psalms didn't seem to relate to the first verse. I mean, the first verse speaks of "the fool" in singular ... but then, the rest of it speaks of a large group of people, and in fact, when apostle Paul references this psalm in Romans 3, he uses it to describe EVERYONE! The entire WORLD ... yes! Paul then, EVIDENTLY did not consider the first verse to be talking about some small group of atheists.

We need to remember as well, that back when that psalm was written, there was NO PROBLEM with atheists and NO THREAT from atheism either! EVERYONE back then was superstitious and ALL believed in the existence of gods. Nowhere else in the Bible do we find any bemoaning the spreading of atheism.

So it's totally weird and out of character for this ONE psalm to suddenly come out and address atheism. It also creates an inexplicable disjoint in context to consider the first verse to be speaking of some strange esoteric "cult" that denied the existence of the gods and/but then go on to generalize about a LOT of people.

So what DOES that first verse actually mean then?

Well, I looked it up in my own electronic Bible (KJV) and checked out all of the Strong's number meanings and was rather surprised that the translation wording appears to be rather "supplemental." The words "there is" are in italics so we know right away that those words were non-existent in the Hebrew text. That leaves us with, "the fool hath said in his heart, no God."

But then there's another surprise! The word "no" ALSO appears to be missing. Here's a print screen which you can look at for yourself. (It's not possible to show the arrow -> characters in a copy and paste so I have to show it with a print screen instead).



There's only ONE Strong's reference # after the phrase "there is no God" and that's (0430). This word is "Elohim" ... which is "God" in English. So according to the print screen, the verse would literally read, "The fool hath said in his heart, God."

Now, allegedly, there IS some kind of negative indicator in there but I don't understand why a Strong's reference number wouldn't have been included for that ... IF it exists. That word is supposed to be, "ayin" -Strong's reference #369/370! What gives with that, eh? Different manuscript or something?

So what does the word "ayin" mean? Well THAT'S kind of interesting too! It actually means "whence, where, who" and actually not "no."

Supposing then, we include this word "ayin." We then get .... The fool hath said in his heart, whence God?"

How does that all make sense? Well I'll tell ye boyze ... I had a DREAM about this yesterday -no word of a lie- and you can take it for what you can imagine it to be ... my subconscious or an answer from outer space!~

In my dream, a voice said, "The philanderer has said in his heart, there is no wife." As I pondered that after waking up, it suddenly made perfect sense!

The philanderer doesn't deny the existence of his wife ... when he NEEDS his wife! When he's on the prowl though, he tries to put his wife OUT of his mind as if she didn't exist.

It's DENIAL the psalm is talking about. Double-mindedness. ("The double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." -James 1:8 ; 4:8 )

It actually ties in quite well with 2 Timothy 3:5 as well, "Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof." Denial through avoidance of the truth.

If you check the various commentators on this psalm, you'll find that they pretty well all agree that "within his heart" indicates an effort to deceive himself. So they all go into .... the atheist BELIEVES in God but tries his damndest to DECEIVE himself into believing there isn't a God.

However, when you think about that more carefully, if the atheist were trying to convince himself inwardly of the opposite to what he declares outwardly, then the atheist would secretly BELIEVE in God while saying outwardly that he didn't. That would mean, the verse should read, "The atheist hath said within his heart, there IS a God." If the atheist says within his heart, "there is no God" then he's being totally consistent by saying the very same thing out loud which he believes in his heart! Thus, there would be no inconsistency. The psalmist though, was talking about inconsistency and describes the result of that inconsistency in the rest of the psalm.

-Vince
One problem with the Bible is we can't be sure who was the writer of any scripture. We know the gospels were not written by a Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Perhaps Matthew, but not the rest.

The same scripture re-written by Vince and by Jack Howell tinctured by their levels of understanding will be different from each other. How many times do you suppose a sincere, totally honest, Jack Howell read a scripture, said to himself "I can make that verse easier to understand," and rewrote the scripture according to his understanding.

Later, those unaware they are reading a revised edition containing the inspired word of Jack Howell, believe they are reading God's word.

One of the reasons Catholicism was dogmatic is to avoid such personal opinions. But how many monks, while writing the Bible wrote-in their own understanding? How many Catholics are practicing the religion of previous monks?

And how many times has the above happened? How many believe they are experiencing a divine emotion via God's word after reading the Bible, when in reality, the original has been revised out of existence. I am not picking on Jack. Just using someone we all know and who makes my point. Jack, like the rest of us, is where he is on the Path of Return. You gotta dance with who you brung...all of us.

The current Bibles cannot be depended upon. To a large degree, the original has be 'revised' out of existence.
Quote
Share

Vince
Vince

September 11th, 2010, 8:48 pm #5

-the two psalms in the showcase are a good example! They're very much the same; so much the same that we can safely assume they came from the same original source. Yet they differ in the actual wording.

What it proves is that NO BIBLE is absolute in any meaning of any particular word or words because we don't know if the words might have been changed or mistranslated! Therefore, it can only be considered as the reflection of mens' opinions and perceptions and be applied as inspiration or thought provocation. That includes my own personal "revelation" on that first verse. Take it or leave it but ... please don't use that verse to bang atheists over the head anymore!~

-Vince
Quote
Share

lox
lox

September 11th, 2010, 9:15 pm #6

That you are going to judge God because of His Word, that comes out of His mouth and then decide not to believe Him simply because you DON'T know Him and yet have the gull to make your lame case.


You find fault with the Lord?

For the word of the LORD [is] right; and all his works [are done] in truth.


By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

How dare you that even though God is patient and longsuffering, that you have breath/spirit enough to question Him? That spirit in you won't be there but for the time He gives you to walk in that shell you move in.



But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or [that] thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?


Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.


When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.


Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit.


Thou sittest [and] speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son.


These [things] hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether [such an one] as thyself: [but] I will reprove thee, and set [them] in order before thine eyes.


Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear [you] in pieces, and [there be] none to deliver.



Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth [his] conversation [aright] will I shew the salvation of God.
Quote
Share

Joined: March 4th, 2007, 4:09 pm

September 11th, 2010, 9:48 pm #7

"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God."

This little piece of both these (virtually identical and evidently from the same source) psalms is frequently thrown out at atheists, by bigoted Christians, as the ultimate Biblical condemnation of atheism. However, when the REST of the two psalms is taken into consideration in context, it doesn't make sense that the psalmist was speaking about a particular group of people who proclaimed themselves to be atheists because he speaks of a large MASS of people who are all evil bastards! Of course, Christians who recklessly fling this verse in the face of declared atheists never bother to quote any of the rest of the psalm, (and probably don't even know what the rest says!)

It always bothered me, (when rarely I happened to read these psalms) that the rest of the psalms didn't seem to relate to the first verse. I mean, the first verse speaks of "the fool" in singular ... but then, the rest of it speaks of a large group of people, and in fact, when apostle Paul references this psalm in Romans 3, he uses it to describe EVERYONE! The entire WORLD ... yes! Paul then, EVIDENTLY did not consider the first verse to be talking about some small group of atheists.

We need to remember as well, that back when that psalm was written, there was NO PROBLEM with atheists and NO THREAT from atheism either! EVERYONE back then was superstitious and ALL believed in the existence of gods. Nowhere else in the Bible do we find any bemoaning the spreading of atheism.

So it's totally weird and out of character for this ONE psalm to suddenly come out and address atheism. It also creates an inexplicable disjoint in context to consider the first verse to be speaking of some strange esoteric "cult" that denied the existence of the gods and/but then go on to generalize about a LOT of people.

So what DOES that first verse actually mean then?

Well, I looked it up in my own electronic Bible (KJV) and checked out all of the Strong's number meanings and was rather surprised that the translation wording appears to be rather "supplemental." The words "there is" are in italics so we know right away that those words were non-existent in the Hebrew text. That leaves us with, "the fool hath said in his heart, no God."

But then there's another surprise! The word "no" ALSO appears to be missing. Here's a print screen which you can look at for yourself. (It's not possible to show the arrow -> characters in a copy and paste so I have to show it with a print screen instead).



There's only ONE Strong's reference # after the phrase "there is no God" and that's (0430). This word is "Elohim" ... which is "God" in English. So according to the print screen, the verse would literally read, "The fool hath said in his heart, God."

Now, allegedly, there IS some kind of negative indicator in there but I don't understand why a Strong's reference number wouldn't have been included for that ... IF it exists. That word is supposed to be, "ayin" -Strong's reference #369/370! What gives with that, eh? Different manuscript or something?

So what does the word "ayin" mean? Well THAT'S kind of interesting too! It actually means "whence, where, who" and actually not "no."

Supposing then, we include this word "ayin." We then get .... The fool hath said in his heart, whence God?"

How does that all make sense? Well I'll tell ye boyze ... I had a DREAM about this yesterday -no word of a lie- and you can take it for what you can imagine it to be ... my subconscious or an answer from outer space!~

In my dream, a voice said, "The philanderer has said in his heart, there is no wife." As I pondered that after waking up, it suddenly made perfect sense!

The philanderer doesn't deny the existence of his wife ... when he NEEDS his wife! When he's on the prowl though, he tries to put his wife OUT of his mind as if she didn't exist.

It's DENIAL the psalm is talking about. Double-mindedness. ("The double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." -James 1:8 ; 4:8 )

It actually ties in quite well with 2 Timothy 3:5 as well, "Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof." Denial through avoidance of the truth.

If you check the various commentators on this psalm, you'll find that they pretty well all agree that "within his heart" indicates an effort to deceive himself. So they all go into .... the atheist BELIEVES in God but tries his damndest to DECEIVE himself into believing there isn't a God.

However, when you think about that more carefully, if the atheist were trying to convince himself inwardly of the opposite to what he declares outwardly, then the atheist would secretly BELIEVE in God while saying outwardly that he didn't. That would mean, the verse should read, "The atheist hath said within his heart, there IS a God." If the atheist says within his heart, "there is no God" then he's being totally consistent by saying the very same thing out loud which he believes in his heart! Thus, there would be no inconsistency. The psalmist though, was talking about inconsistency and describes the result of that inconsistency in the rest of the psalm.

-Vince
In the resource YOU have chosen to use.

Here...
Try THIS ONE.
-- Psalm 14:1
-- Psalm 53:1

The word you're looking for is "ein"...
-- (Strong's Hebrew -- 369)

-PRev1-

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 4th, 2007, 4:09 pm

September 11th, 2010, 9:58 pm #8

<blockquote>
Strong's Hebrew: 369. ayin

Transliteration: ayin
Phonetic Spelling: (ah'-yin)
Short Definition: else

Word Origin: a prim. root
Definition: nothing, nought

NASB Word Usage

almost (1), bereft* (1), beyond (5), beyond* (1), cease (2), countless* (2), else* (1), endless* (1), fails (1), found (1), gone (6), had (2), had no (11), had no one (2), has (2), has he no (1), has no (23), has none (1), has nothing (1), have (5), have i no (1), have no (24), have none (2), have nothing (2), having a nor (1), having no (2), helpless* (1), incurable* (1), infinite* (1), infrequent* (1), innumerable* (1), inscrutable* (1), lack (4), lacks (1), leaves no (1), neither (2), neither* (1), neither...nor (2), never (2), no (43), no account (1), no longer (3), no more (16), no one (101), no* (1), no...have (1), none (18), none other (1), none* (1), nor (12), nor are there (2), nor is there (3), nor is there one (1), nor was there (2), nor have (1), nor* (1), nothing (19), nothing* (10), one (3), one should never (1), or (1), powerless* (1), senseless* (1), surely* (1), there (15), there are no (2), there be no (2), there is not one (1), there is no (108), there is no one (31), there is no...nor (2), there is none (22), there is nothing (11), there was not (1), there was not one (1), there was no (38), there was no one (15), there was none (5), there was nothing (2), there were no (3), there will be neither (1), there will be no (9), there will be no one (3), there will be none (5), there will be nothing (1), there no (6), there none (1), there one (1), undesirable* (2), unfathomable* (1), unless (1), unsearchable* (3), waterless* (1), without (46), without and having no (1), without* (4).

Ayin...
Translated as "there is no"...
-- 108 times.

Why doesn't this number appear in YOUR Chosen Resource...?
Maybe...
Because it's not a very reliable resource...?
-- Have you thought about THAT...?

-PRev1-
</blockquote>

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

September 11th, 2010, 11:00 pm #9


Casting doubt and uncertainty onto that which is PURE and ABSOLUTE!!!

Blasphemers!!!


mwahahahahahahahaha!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

September 11th, 2010, 11:37 pm #10

In the resource YOU have chosen to use.

Here...
Try THIS ONE.
-- Psalm 14:1
-- Psalm 53:1

The word you're looking for is "ein"...
-- (Strong's Hebrew -- 369)

-PRev1-

President Barrack Hussein Obama

-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --
That's exactly what I was looking for -the Hebrew text- and yes, I see the 2 little characters there for that word "ein". Thanks Pope.

See, I HAD looked at those pages before but for some reason, my side-kick computer which I use for looking up stuff, apparently doesn't have the correct fonts installed ... so it just appeared like a big jumble and I didn't even recognize it as text. This time I clicked on your links with my main machine and amazingly, IT shows all the Hebrew characters!

Ok, so I accept that the word "ein" IS in the text. That settles that.

Now we go into picking that word apart. What DID it mean?

OMG ... LOOK at the list of meanings!!

[ almost (1), bereft* (1), beyond (5), beyond* (1), cease (2), countless* (2), else* (1), endless* (1), fails (1), found (1), gone (6), had (2), had no (11), had no one (2), has (2), has he no (1), has no (23), has none (1), has nothing (1), have (5), have i no (1), have no (24), have none (2), have nothing (2), having a nor (1), having no (2), helpless* (1), incurable* (1), infinite* (1), infrequent* (1), innumerable* (1), inscrutable* (1), lack (4), lacks (1), leaves no (1), neither (2), neither* (1), neither...nor (2), never (2), no (43), no account (1), no longer (3), no more (16), no one (101), no* (1), no...have (1), none (18), none other (1), none* (1), nor (12), nor are there (2), nor is there (3), nor is there one (1), nor was there (2), nor have (1), nor* (1), nothing (19), nothing* (10), one (3), one should never (1), or (1), powerless* (1), senseless* (1), surely* (1), there (15), there are no (2), there be no (2), there is not one (1), there is no (108), there is no one (31), there is no...nor (2), there is none (22), there is nothing (11), there was not (1), there was not one (1), there was no (38), there was no one (15), there was none (5), there was nothing (2), there were no (3), there will be neither (1), there will be no (9), there will be no one (3), there will be none (5), there will be nothing (1), there no (6), there none (1), there one (1), undesirable* (2), unfathomable* (1), unless (1), unsearchable* (3), waterless* (1), without (46), without and having no (1), without* (4). ]

What is the SENSE of the word meaning? It seems to indicate question/absence. Let's try the word "whence" or "where" and see how that fits.

[ The fool has said in his heart, "where's God?" They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, where's one that does good?

The fool has said in his heart, "where's God?" Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: where's one that does good? ]

Ok, that's a suggested implementation but you can probably see what I mean. The word "ein" suggests an absence ..... not particularly a statement of denial. A guy doesn't TELL himself he has no wife, when he wants to cheat; he merely ABSENTS her from his mind.

-Vince



Quote
Like
Share