A question for the forum that a salvation salesman couldn't answer.

A question for the forum that a salvation salesman couldn't answer.

Joined: September 30th, 2009, 7:55 pm

September 9th, 2010, 4:40 pm #1

Let me elaborate... there is a point to my ranting.

I had a discussion with a door-to-door Jesus salesman this past Saturday morning. Told him I wasn't interested, as I was an Atheist. Once that was said, he made it known that it was his duty to save my soul, and that God wouldn't take no for an answer.

Kinda contradicts the supernaturalist claim that God gives everyone free will, but then again, when do supernaturalists not contradict themselves? But I digress...

Anyways, the door-to-door Jesus salesmen are usually not a bother. If I don't want them around, I let Jaxom out in the front yard. Jaxom is my rather large Retriever-Chow mix dog, who, due to his advanced age, has become a bit cantankerous.

But this weekend ol' Jax was inside, and I thought I'd give the guy a chance to pitch his sale. He went thru the usual non-seqiturs, baseless assumptions, and his ending pronouncement: "I'm right, you're wrong, and God told me so".

OK, the guy hears voices in his head. Lots of people do... but they are usually in a psyche ward's rubber room wrapped up in a Mr. Huggy Jacket©®. Funny how we never respect insanity in our society, unless it is religious insanity.

But now for the point of my thread:

One of the reasons why the salvation salesman told me I really need to jump on the invisible man in the sky's bandwagon was that when his invisible friend's kingdom is once again realized on this planet, it will be a paradise. His particular deity (Yahweh, I presume) will restore "the peaceful relations that existed in the Garden of Eden between animals, and between animals and humans". Specifically, he cites Isaiah 11:6-9 and Hosea 2:18.

"The wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them."

When this became our discussion, I asked, "Obviously, if these animals are well-fed, then that means they are eating. So, when this happens, what will wolves, leopards, and lions eat to be well-fed?"

His answer: "Plants I guess. Let me ask my pastor."

So, my question to the group is, what will carnivores eat if Yahweh's kingdom is realized on this planet?

-----------------------------------------------
"Forget Jesus! Stars died so we all could exist!" -- Lawrence Krauss, astrophysicist
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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

September 9th, 2010, 8:39 pm #2


 

There are no carnivores in paradise, just as there were no carnivores on/in the ark. All animals in paradise will be herbivores, just as the animals on/in the ark were - or so I'm being told.
<p align="center">It seems to me that any 'believer' deeming itself intelligent
must wonder: how come I cannot refute those arguments
that, unfortunately perhaps, show, unassailable and
incontrovertible, certain things I believe in, as fact(ual), cannot
in a honest and reasonable manner, be maintained as such?

<p align="left"> 
<p align="left">Brought to you by:

<img alt="punchandjudynews.jpg" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... dynews.jpg">


<p align="right">Scientific Creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with incredible arrogance.

Creationist: 1) one who follows creationism. 2) oblivious to reasoning and logic also known as common sense. 3) incapable of doing math.
4) a true believer. 5) gullible to the extreme. 6) can't add 7) convinced of its righteousness. 8) can't subtract. 9) devoid of introspection.

<p align="left">- fallacious, abductive, inductive, deductive
are the basic modes of reasoning -- when we
fail to discern between them, we are destined
to act accordingly ......


<p align="center">... after all, logic demands explicit contains implicit
so, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then what it
necessarily infers or implies must logically be true
as well - if not, then it is incontrovertibly axiomatic
there is something amiss with the explicitly posed ...


<p align="right">... and such is the excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it are indispensably
the experts in applying it, in effect, revealing the exact
opposite of apparent intent thereby granting the courtesy
of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze-Going In Circles



<p align="left">Ardent believers turn out to be quite useful creatures
because they seem to be some sort of omniscient.
You can therefore always depend on them to tell you
exactly what your thoughts and feelings are
and what your opinions and conduct should be.

Handy.


<p align="center">It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!


There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22
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Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

September 9th, 2010, 8:42 pm #3

Let me elaborate... there is a point to my ranting.

I had a discussion with a door-to-door Jesus salesman this past Saturday morning. Told him I wasn't interested, as I was an Atheist. Once that was said, he made it known that it was his duty to save my soul, and that God wouldn't take no for an answer.

Kinda contradicts the supernaturalist claim that God gives everyone free will, but then again, when do supernaturalists not contradict themselves? But I digress...

Anyways, the door-to-door Jesus salesmen are usually not a bother. If I don't want them around, I let Jaxom out in the front yard. Jaxom is my rather large Retriever-Chow mix dog, who, due to his advanced age, has become a bit cantankerous.

But this weekend ol' Jax was inside, and I thought I'd give the guy a chance to pitch his sale. He went thru the usual non-seqiturs, baseless assumptions, and his ending pronouncement: "I'm right, you're wrong, and God told me so".

OK, the guy hears voices in his head. Lots of people do... but they are usually in a psyche ward's rubber room wrapped up in a Mr. Huggy Jacket©®. Funny how we never respect insanity in our society, unless it is religious insanity.

But now for the point of my thread:

One of the reasons why the salvation salesman told me I really need to jump on the invisible man in the sky's bandwagon was that when his invisible friend's kingdom is once again realized on this planet, it will be a paradise. His particular deity (Yahweh, I presume) will restore "the peaceful relations that existed in the Garden of Eden between animals, and between animals and humans". Specifically, he cites Isaiah 11:6-9 and Hosea 2:18.

"The wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them."

When this became our discussion, I asked, "Obviously, if these animals are well-fed, then that means they are eating. So, when this happens, what will wolves, leopards, and lions eat to be well-fed?"

His answer: "Plants I guess. Let me ask my pastor."

So, my question to the group is, what will carnivores eat if Yahweh's kingdom is realized on this planet?

-----------------------------------------------
"Forget Jesus! Stars died so we all could exist!" -- Lawrence Krauss, astrophysicist
So I find it a bit silly to argue about drawing literal conclusions from it.


In other words, the question is rather pointless because it is formed from a flawed assumption.


Since you asked...
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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

September 9th, 2010, 10:48 pm #4


Except where not, of course.
<p align="center">Common Sense dictates that any 'believer' deeming itself
intelligent must wonder: how come I cannot refute these
arguments that, unfortunately perhaps, show, unassailable
and incontrovertible, certain things I believe in, as fact(ual)
cannot, in a honest and reasonable manner, be maintained
as such?

<p align="left">Brought to you by:

<img alt="punchandjudynews.jpg" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... dynews.jpg">


<p align="right">Scientific Creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with incredible arrogance.

Creationist: 1) one who follows creationism. 2) oblivious to reasoning and logic also known as common sense. 3) incapable of doing math.
4) a true believer. 5) gullible to the extreme. 6) can't add 7) convinced of its righteousness. 8) can't subtract. 9) devoid of introspection.

<p align="left">- fallacious, abductive, inductive, deductive
are the basic modes of reasoning -- when we
fail to discern between them, we are destined
to act accordingly ......


<p align="center">... after all, logic demands explicit contains implicit
so, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then what it
necessarily infers or implies must logically be true
as well - if not, then it is incontrovertibly axiomatic
there is something amiss with the explicitly posed ...


<p align="right">... and such is the excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it are indispensably
the experts in applying it, in effect, revealing the exact
opposite of apparent intent thereby granting the courtesy
of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze-Going In Circles



<p align="left">Ardent believers turn out to be quite useful creatures
because they seem to be some sort of omniscient.
You can therefore always depend on them to tell you
exactly what your thoughts and feelings are
and what your opinions and conduct should be.

Handy.


<p align="center">It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!


There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22
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Joined: December 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

September 9th, 2010, 11:18 pm #5

Let me elaborate... there is a point to my ranting.

I had a discussion with a door-to-door Jesus salesman this past Saturday morning. Told him I wasn't interested, as I was an Atheist. Once that was said, he made it known that it was his duty to save my soul, and that God wouldn't take no for an answer.

Kinda contradicts the supernaturalist claim that God gives everyone free will, but then again, when do supernaturalists not contradict themselves? But I digress...

Anyways, the door-to-door Jesus salesmen are usually not a bother. If I don't want them around, I let Jaxom out in the front yard. Jaxom is my rather large Retriever-Chow mix dog, who, due to his advanced age, has become a bit cantankerous.

But this weekend ol' Jax was inside, and I thought I'd give the guy a chance to pitch his sale. He went thru the usual non-seqiturs, baseless assumptions, and his ending pronouncement: "I'm right, you're wrong, and God told me so".

OK, the guy hears voices in his head. Lots of people do... but they are usually in a psyche ward's rubber room wrapped up in a Mr. Huggy Jacket©®. Funny how we never respect insanity in our society, unless it is religious insanity.

But now for the point of my thread:

One of the reasons why the salvation salesman told me I really need to jump on the invisible man in the sky's bandwagon was that when his invisible friend's kingdom is once again realized on this planet, it will be a paradise. His particular deity (Yahweh, I presume) will restore "the peaceful relations that existed in the Garden of Eden between animals, and between animals and humans". Specifically, he cites Isaiah 11:6-9 and Hosea 2:18.

"The wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them."

When this became our discussion, I asked, "Obviously, if these animals are well-fed, then that means they are eating. So, when this happens, what will wolves, leopards, and lions eat to be well-fed?"

His answer: "Plants I guess. Let me ask my pastor."

So, my question to the group is, what will carnivores eat if Yahweh's kingdom is realized on this planet?

-----------------------------------------------
"Forget Jesus! Stars died so we all could exist!" -- Lawrence Krauss, astrophysicist
The answer is quite simple, really: they'll eat chow.

The IDEA behind what he was saying is that when Jesus returns to earth and becomes universal King ... all antagonism will cease. People will feed the animals and all animals will love each other as well as people. It will be an absolute love fest.

Yes, animals will still be eating meat but that meat will be provided by HUMAN killing and not by animal's needing to hunt. (Probably dying animals will be recycled into carnivore food as well). A large part of their diet will -no doubt- be modified by the use of soy beans to create artificial "meat," (just like Seventh Day Adventists thrill to the idea of eating fake meat that tastes just like the real thing!)

There's actually some validity to what these people believe about carnivores' need to hunt. If they're FED ... they quit hunting for food. Our kitties are so "bad," they actually bring their victims into the house and let them go! Yes, they don't want to EAT them; they want to PLAY with them. They want their own little pets, in other words.

Now, the guy who hit on you was probably a Jehovah's Witness. They're really big on this "lion lays down with the lamb" trip. They don't believe in hell ... so I'm not quite sure what drives them to be insistent to the point of obnoxishity.

But I WILL tell you that when I was a Christian, this compulsion for witnessing was driven by the belief that unbelievers will go to an everlasting burning hell. If I didn't get people converted, ((I)) was essentially condemning them to that for eternity. You have no idea how HEAVILY that weighed on me. I was constantly struggling with the dilemma of needing and wanting friends but still ... needing to convert them as well because ... how would I FACE those people when at the Judgment, they would be condemned and I would be ushered into the pearly gates? What would my last words be to them, as they looked on me narrowly for having let them down by NOT pressing the gospel message on them? "So long! Bin good to know ya! Adios/toodle-doo!"

That kept me from making friends with unbelievers. I didn't want to face that moment of "betrayal." I COULDN'T have a good relationship with people if I kept hounding them with the gospel but if I didn't ... I also wasn't a very good friend, was I.

Finally, I had this "epiphany" or ultimate realization that it wasn't MY problem; it was GOD'S problem! (go figger - it took me so LONG?) I would make friends and tell them about Jesus ONLY when it wouldn't create conflict. Whatever happened at the Judgment then, was between God and them. I put that whole hell thing AWAY from me, figuring that a just God would work out what was fitting. It was no longer MY problem.

Well, today, I know that the whole thing is phony as hell. I should NEVER have been caught up in that bogus fear-mongering doctrine in the first place. The gospel message of 2000 years ago was COMPLETELY different than what I'd always believed it to be ; I've come to see that, as I've studied the NTestament and history of that time subsequently, in a completely different frame of mind.

Don't misunderstand me, I think the NTestament gospel is absolutely obsolete today but .... I have a fair amount of respect for what people like Apostle Paul were trying to achieve back then and the way they went about presenting it to their audience. They WERE successful in what they set out to do ... by their belief and faith. If nothing else, that piece of history IS inspiring to me.

-Vince
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Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

September 10th, 2010, 12:02 am #6

Except where not, of course.
<p align="center">Common Sense dictates that any 'believer' deeming itself
intelligent must wonder: how come I cannot refute these
arguments that, unfortunately perhaps, show, unassailable
and incontrovertible, certain things I believe in, as fact(ual)
cannot, in a honest and reasonable manner, be maintained
as such?

<p align="left">Brought to you by:

<img alt="punchandjudynews.jpg" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... dynews.jpg">


<p align="right">Scientific Creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with incredible arrogance.

Creationist: 1) one who follows creationism. 2) oblivious to reasoning and logic also known as common sense. 3) incapable of doing math.
4) a true believer. 5) gullible to the extreme. 6) can't add 7) convinced of its righteousness. 8) can't subtract. 9) devoid of introspection.

<p align="left">- fallacious, abductive, inductive, deductive
are the basic modes of reasoning -- when we
fail to discern between them, we are destined
to act accordingly ......


<p align="center">... after all, logic demands explicit contains implicit
so, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then what it
necessarily infers or implies must logically be true
as well - if not, then it is incontrovertibly axiomatic
there is something amiss with the explicitly posed ...


<p align="right">... and such is the excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it are indispensably
the experts in applying it, in effect, revealing the exact
opposite of apparent intent thereby granting the courtesy
of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze-Going In Circles



<p align="left">Ardent believers turn out to be quite useful creatures
because they seem to be some sort of omniscient.
You can therefore always depend on them to tell you
exactly what your thoughts and feelings are
and what your opinions and conduct should be.

Handy.


<p align="center">It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!


There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22
I believe that it is a collection of poems, songs, history, parables, allegories, lines of ancestry, letters, notes, and whatnot. To take all of it literally creates too many problems & contradictions that cannot be resolved without leaps of absurdity.

That being said, the important messages, lessons, and teachings are abundantly clear and indisputable - even to non-believers.
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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

September 10th, 2010, 12:28 am #7


What about all those cases of cruelty, injustice, violence, intolerance, etc. - as recorded in the bible - condonded, ordered, and even performed by God? What's that all about? What are the important messages, lessons, and teachings of those?

And how do we reconcile those accounts with the "God is love" and the "God is omni-benevolent" notions?

 
<p align="center">Common Sense dictates that any 'believer' deeming itself
intelligent must wonder: how come I cannot refute these
arguments that, unfortunately perhaps, show, unassailable
and incontrovertible, certain things I believe in, as fact(ual)
cannot, in a honest and reasonable manner, be maintained
as such?

<p align="left">Brought to you by:

<img alt="punchandjudynews.jpg" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... dynews.jpg">


<p align="right">Scientific Creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with incredible arrogance.

Creationist: 1) one who follows creationism. 2) oblivious to reasoning and logic also known as common sense. 3) incapable of doing math.
4) a true believer. 5) gullible to the extreme. 6) can't add 7) convinced of its righteousness. 8) can't subtract. 9) devoid of introspection.

<p align="left">- fallacious, abductive, inductive, deductive
are the basic modes of reasoning -- when we
fail to discern between them, we are destined
to act accordingly ......


<p align="center">... after all, logic demands explicit contains implicit
so, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then what it
necessarily infers or implies must logically be true
as well - if not, then it is incontrovertibly axiomatic
there is something amiss with the explicitly posed ...


<p align="right">... and such is the excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it are indispensably
the experts in applying it, in effect, revealing the exact
opposite of apparent intent thereby granting the courtesy
of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze-Going In Circles



<p align="left">Ardent believers turn out to be quite useful creatures
because they seem to be some sort of omniscient.
You can therefore always depend on them to tell you
exactly what your thoughts and feelings are
and what your opinions and conduct should be.

Handy.


<p align="center">It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!


There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22
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Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

September 10th, 2010, 12:37 am #8

The heart of your question is addressed by Christ himself, who closed the chapters to the OT and wrote everything new so we could escape the bonds, limits, and writings that had served their purpose.

In general, I believe that your "concerns" are regarding the historical accounts and applying them in a way that is not intended. The OT captures the beliefs, rituals, and laws of a desert wandering people, so that aspect of the Bible is fact (or at least a documented historical account as best we can get from the period). Did "God" really do those things that the people who wrote those passages assigned to him? Personally, I really don't think so. The messages and lessons are still clear, none-the-less.
Last edited by ever-a-newbie on September 10th, 2010, 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JVH
Joined: July 20th, 2009, 1:33 pm

September 10th, 2010, 12:53 am #9


If we cannot trust those clear accounts of cruelty, injustice, violence, intolerance etc. to be true, how then can we trust those so-called important messages, lessons, and teachings to be true?
<p align="center"> 
<p align="center">Common Sense dictates that any 'believer' deeming itself
intelligent must wonder: how come I cannot refute these
arguments that, unfortunately perhaps, show, unassailable
and incontrovertible, certain things I believe in, as fact(ual)
cannot, in a honest and reasonable manner, be maintained
as such?

<p align="left">Brought to you by:

<img alt="punchandjudynews.jpg" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... dynews.jpg">


<p align="right">Scientific Creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with incredible arrogance.

Creationist: 1) one who follows creationism. 2) oblivious to reasoning and logic also known as common sense. 3) incapable of doing math.
4) a true believer. 5) gullible to the extreme. 6) can't add 7) convinced of its righteousness. 8) can't subtract. 9) devoid of introspection.

<p align="left">- fallacious, abductive, inductive, deductive
are the basic modes of reasoning -- when we
fail to discern between them, we are destined
to act accordingly ......

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... hink-1.gif">
<p align="center">... after all, logic demands explicit contains implicit
so, iff what is explicitly posed is true, then what it
necessarily infers or implies must logically be true
as well - if not, then it is incontrovertibly axiomatic
there is something amiss with the explicitly posed ...

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... talk-1.gif">
<p align="right">... and such is the excruciating irony of incomprehensibility
& self-refutation; those oblivious of it are indispensably
the experts in applying it, in effect, revealing the exact
opposite of apparent intent thereby granting the courtesy
of instant clarification.

Mice In A Maze-Going In Circles

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... arch-1.gif">

<p align="left">Ardent believers turn out to be quite useful creatures
because they seem to be some sort of omniscient.
You can therefore always depend on them to tell you
exactly what your thoughts and feelings are
and what your opinions and conduct should be.

Handy.

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... rite-1.gif">
<p align="center">It is as it is - It goes as it goes
If it doesn't go, that's how it goes
If it isn't, then that's how it is

New!! Improved!! Now With T-Formula!!

<img alt="[linked image]" src="http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc31 ... s.gif">[hr]There is forgiveness. Unfortunately, forgiveness doesn't mean a thing
..... when not applied that is. Therefore, it is I who forgive, publically
those who either dare or will not - for, as it seems, they are not ready
yet, to do so by themselves; out of themselves. I hereby thus, plow
the road; leading the way, for those eager to walk that walk as well.
JVH, July 20, 2010, 2:22
Last edited by JVH on September 10th, 2010, 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 13th, 2010, 2:50 pm

September 10th, 2010, 1:57 am #10


Each person needs to resolve it for themselves.

If you're like every other person on the planet, your parents and siblings treated you like crap at times, loved you at times, ignored you at times, lied to you at times, told you the truth at times, taught you correct things, taught you incorrect things...

How do you sort out your experiences with them? I don't see the process as any different, myself.

But if someone has lingering trust issues on that front, it would be understandable why they might find it difficult to trust other things that would have commonalities. I'm not saying or implying that you do, mind you... It's just an example.
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