imaginary Dutch arms production/development after 1940

imaginary Dutch arms production/development after 1940

Joined: July 20th, 2004, 4:40 pm

January 7th, 2006, 12:42 pm #1

I am usually not into the "What if?" business, but I'd like to share some thoughts with you.

Suppose Nazi-Germany did not invade Holland in 1940 (as the Dutch had hoped and just like in WW1) and the country would stay neutral and out of trouble at least until Pearl Harbour. How would Dutch arms production and development have continued?

I do not know all outstanding Dutch orders in may 1940, but some of you might be able to help out.

Airforce:
- the Fokker G1 fighter might have been produced in greater numbers (the full 52 planes would haven been built plus the extra confiscated Spanish order) and production of the new Koolhoven FK-58 fighter (also ordered by France) might have started and be completed (36 pieces).
- Furthermore the Fokker D23 design might have been produced.
- All of this in modest numbers probably and depending on imports of engines.
- The Curtiss Hawks would have entered service in Holland and not diverted to KNIL and the Douglas dive-bombers would be operational.
- Some more Fokker and Koolhoven transport, training, recce and bomber planes could have been built as well. Some Fokker T9 bombers for KNIL for instance.
- Overall the airforce would be in good shape by the end of 1941 (though at the cost of KNIL's).

Navy:
- the extensive shipbuilding programme would have been continued and some of the ships (out of a few dozen destroyers, gunboats, cruisers, submarines and battlecruisers under construction) would have been added to the Navy in 1940 and 1941. Wilton-Feyenoord would have been able to build the guns, if enough material was at hand.
-Ships ready by end 1941 might be the K1, K2 and K3 gunboats, 3 out of four new destroyers, all 7 O21 class submarines, though not any of the bigger ships. Jan? Anything else planned or under construction?

Army vehicles:
- DAF would be able to convert lots more Chevrolets and Fords and imports from the US would simply continue (like they did to Germany right up to the US entry in the war);
- Model year 1941 and some 1942 GM and Ford models would make it to Holland as would probably some Chevrolet 4x4 G4100 series and other vehicles;
- DAF would have built more armoured cars. A second order for the 6x4 M39 was already under way in may 1940 (grebbeberg.nl). Additional batches could have been produced throughout 1940 and 1941 and several dozen of these cars would be in service by the end of 1941. Engines would come from the US and steel would have to be acquired there as well now the Belgian works were out of question. Getting the Landsverk/Bofors turrets might have become a problem but the Dutch could have built there own (larger) version and install the Bohler/AI 47mm gun. An excellent combination probably.
- the Dutch did not have tanks yet but they were after them all over Europe by 1940. Belgian and Czech tanks were inspected. Meanwhile DAF offered to build two tanks for training, based on the same DAF M39 armoured car. They needed one year. Could have been interesting. Imagine the M39 with tracks (and trados?). If successfull a small batch of these tanks with 47mm guns could have been produced by the end of 1941.
- Meanwhile Werkspoor had acquired the rights to build Christie tanks (national archives) and another tank type could have been developed based on the Christie suspension system and it could be produced in limited numbers. The result may have looked a bit like the Soviet BT7 series perhaps.
- Additional small numbers of US tanks could have been ordered, but we all know the sad ending of the Marmon-Herrington orders. More Dutch orders might have jammed the system even sooner.

Artillery:
- combined efforts of the AI, Werkspoor, Wilton-Feyenoord and others would allow the Dutch to extend their numbers of modern guns:
- Vickers 75mm and Bofors 40mm AA guns would have been produced in reasonable numbers, given enough imports of steel. The orders (37mm AA) to Rheinmetall would probalby have been fullfilled as they had been paid in return for butter.
- the order for 400 47mm Antitank guns to AI subcontractor Johan de Witt factory in Dordrecht would materialize. Also 47mm bunker guns would be produced by the AI.
- one or two dozen 105mm Bofors guns would be built by AI as well;
- Would Bofors deliver from Sweden under these circumstances?
- AA and AT defences by the end of 1941 would be excellent.

Light weapons:
-AI Hembrug already produced 6,5mm Mannlicher rifles and carbines, Lewis guns, Vickers machineguns.
- More machineguns (also for the planes and vehicles) and submachineguns would have to be bought in the US. That would be hard given all the known efforts of KNIL....

KNIL:
- KNIL might have been able to acquire some of the above artillery, like a few dozen 47mm AT guns and 40mm AA guns;
- KNIL might have built up a substantial number of DAF converted Chevrolets (4x4);
- Maybe a light 4x4 DAF armoured car with 47mm gun might have been developed for KNIL based on the AC3D?

Supplies:
-oil and other raw materials would have to be sent from the Indies, bought in the US and maybe a bit of steel might be bought in Sweden. Especially steel would have been a problem.
- aircraft engines and other fine stuff would have to be bought in the US.
- enough manpower would have been available in Holland but not in the colonies. Thousands of lightly armed men would have been sent to the East (a KL Indische Brigade of 3 battalions of infantry plus artillery and extra personnel, engineers, etc- all volunteers) and West Indies (an extra 1000 or so) to boost KNIL and Dutch presence.

Spoils:
- as a neutral power Holland would of course stay out of the developments elsewhere. But like in WW1 many (1 million) refugees from Belgium would cross the border, bringing many troops with their equipment as well as engineers etc. Some Belgian guns and vehicles (T15 light tanks, T13 tankdestroyers, Vickers tractors) would be incorporated in Dutch service as well as some French Panhard armoured cars (that took a wrong turn in Belgium when fleeing).

By 1942 the situation would change. Japan would threaten the Indies just the same and one way or another they would be lost. The weapons described above would soon be obsolete by that time and furhter developments would be necessary.

Could they have done it?

Any comments?

Nuyt
Last edited by nuyt on January 8th, 2006, 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hanno Spoelstra
Hanno Spoelstra

January 7th, 2006, 8:37 pm #2

"Suppose Nazi-Germany did not invade Holland in 1940 (as the Dutch had hoped and just like in WW1) and the country would stay neutral and out of trouble at least until Pearl Harbour. How would Dutch arms production and development have continued?"

I wonder if it would have continued at all. The Dutch arms production increased because of the German threat. If this threat would prove not to be one, many people would have sighed in relief and stopped everything. Remember there was quite a strong anti-military movement in Holland ("gebroken geweertje"), which hoped Holland would stay out of trouble (like during WW1), just as long as Holland did nothing to provoke Germany.

Interesting thought experiment, this.

H.
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Susan Cross
Susan Cross

January 8th, 2006, 12:36 am #3

I am usually not into the "What if?" business, but I'd like to share some thoughts with you.

Suppose Nazi-Germany did not invade Holland in 1940 (as the Dutch had hoped and just like in WW1) and the country would stay neutral and out of trouble at least until Pearl Harbour. How would Dutch arms production and development have continued?

I do not know all outstanding Dutch orders in may 1940, but some of you might be able to help out.

Airforce:
- the Fokker G1 fighter might have been produced in greater numbers (the full 52 planes would haven been built plus the extra confiscated Spanish order) and production of the new Koolhoven FK-58 fighter (also ordered by France) might have started and be completed (36 pieces).
- Furthermore the Fokker D23 design might have been produced.
- All of this in modest numbers probably and depending on imports of engines.
- The Curtiss Hawks would have entered service in Holland and not diverted to KNIL and the Douglas dive-bombers would be operational.
- Some more Fokker and Koolhoven transport, training, recce and bomber planes could have been built as well. Some Fokker T9 bombers for KNIL for instance.
- Overall the airforce would be in good shape by the end of 1941 (though at the cost of KNIL's).

Navy:
- the extensive shipbuilding programme would have been continued and some of the ships (out of a few dozen destroyers, gunboats, cruisers, submarines and battlecruisers under construction) would have been added to the Navy in 1940 and 1941. Wilton-Feyenoord would have been able to build the guns, if enough material was at hand.
-Ships ready by end 1941 might be the K1, K2 and K3 gunboats, 3 out of four new destroyers, all 7 O21 class submarines, though not any of the bigger ships. Jan? Anything else planned or under construction?

Army vehicles:
- DAF would be able to convert lots more Chevrolets and Fords and imports from the US would simply continue (like they did to Germany right up to the US entry in the war);
- Model year 1941 and some 1942 GM and Ford models would make it to Holland as would probably some Chevrolet 4x4 G4100 series and other vehicles;
- DAF would have built more armoured cars. A second order for the 6x4 M39 was already under way in may 1940 (grebbeberg.nl). Additional batches could have been produced throughout 1940 and 1941 and several dozen of these cars would be in service by the end of 1941. Engines would come from the US and steel would have to be acquired there as well now the Belgian works were out of question. Getting the Landsverk/Bofors turrets might have become a problem but the Dutch could have built there own (larger) version and install the Bohler/AI 47mm gun. An excellent combination probably.
- the Dutch did not have tanks yet but they were after them all over Europe by 1940. Belgian and Czech tanks were inspected. Meanwhile DAF offered to build two tanks for training, based on the same DAF M39 armoured car. They needed one year. Could have been interesting. Imagine the M39 with tracks (and trados?). If successfull a small batch of these tanks with 47mm guns could have been produced by the end of 1941.
- Meanwhile Werkspoor had acquired the rights to build Christie tanks (national archives) and another tank type could have been developed based on the Christie suspension system and it could be produced in limited numbers. The result may have looked a bit like the Soviet BT7 series perhaps.
- Additional small numbers of US tanks could have been ordered, but we all know the sad ending of the Marmon-Herrington orders. More Dutch orders might have jammed the system even sooner.

Artillery:
- combined efforts of the AI, Werkspoor, Wilton-Feyenoord and others would allow the Dutch to extend their numbers of modern guns:
- Vickers 75mm and Bofors 40mm AA guns would have been produced in reasonable numbers, given enough imports of steel. The orders (37mm AA) to Rheinmetall would probalby have been fullfilled as they had been paid in return for butter.
- the order for 400 47mm Antitank guns to AI subcontractor Johan de Witt factory in Dordrecht would materialize. Also 47mm bunker guns would be produced by the AI.
- one or two dozen 105mm Bofors guns would be built by AI as well;
- Would Bofors deliver from Sweden under these circumstances?
- AA and AT defences by the end of 1941 would be excellent.

Light weapons:
-AI Hembrug already produced 6,5mm Mannlicher rifles and carbines, Lewis guns, Vickers machineguns.
- More machineguns (also for the planes and vehicles) and submachineguns would have to be bought in the US. That would be hard given all the known efforts of KNIL....

KNIL:
- KNIL might have been able to acquire some of the above artillery, like a few dozen 47mm AT guns and 40mm AA guns;
- KNIL might have built up a substantial number of DAF converted Chevrolets (4x4);
- Maybe a light 4x4 DAF armoured car with 47mm gun might have been developed for KNIL based on the AC3D?

Supplies:
-oil and other raw materials would have to be sent from the Indies, bought in the US and maybe a bit of steel might be bought in Sweden. Especially steel would have been a problem.
- aircraft engines and other fine stuff would have to be bought in the US.
- enough manpower would have been available in Holland but not in the colonies. Thousands of lightly armed men would have been sent to the East (a KL Indische Brigade of 3 battalions of infantry plus artillery and extra personnel, engineers, etc- all volunteers) and West Indies (an extra 1000 or so) to boost KNIL and Dutch presence.

Spoils:
- as a neutral power Holland would of course stay out of the developments elsewhere. But like in WW1 many (1 million) refugees from Belgium would cross the border, bringing many troops with their equipment as well as engineers etc. Some Belgian guns and vehicles (T15 light tanks, T13 tankdestroyers, Vickers tractors) would be incorporated in Dutch service as well as some French Panhard armoured cars (that took a wrong turn in Belgium when fleeing).

By 1942 the situation would change. Japan would threaten the Indies just the same and one way or another they would be lost. The weapons described above would soon be obsolete by that time and furhter developments would be necessary.

Could they have done it?

Any comments?

Nuyt
If I am remebering correctly, a Dutch shipyard (Wilton-Fijenoord?) had a manufacturing licence for the Landsverk turret. The Dutch Army had ordered 13 additional armored cars as "M.40"s (J. F. Bom) I suppose we could assume DAF could have produced at least a dozen per year, in addition to their other orders.
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Nuyt
Nuyt

January 8th, 2006, 9:33 am #4

"Suppose Nazi-Germany did not invade Holland in 1940 (as the Dutch had hoped and just like in WW1) and the country would stay neutral and out of trouble at least until Pearl Harbour. How would Dutch arms production and development have continued?"

I wonder if it would have continued at all. The Dutch arms production increased because of the German threat. If this threat would prove not to be one, many people would have sighed in relief and stopped everything. Remember there was quite a strong anti-military movement in Holland ("gebroken geweertje"), which hoped Holland would stay out of trouble (like during WW1), just as long as Holland did nothing to provoke Germany.

Interesting thought experiment, this.

H.
In case the Dutch govt would decide it was no longer necessary to go on arming the country, that would indeed mean the end of some orders and developments. But probably not the Navy's building programme would be sacrificed, because that was mainly intended to protect the Indies where the threat would remain.

Also KNIL would now be able to take over some of the Dutch Army's orders and buy its much needed 47mm AT guns and AA as well as planes and vehicles. The Dutch colonies' oceans of money would simply buy it all.

On the other hand, what would the Dutch commercial arms industry do if large orders were cancelled? Fokker and DAF would lose money and they might be tempted to look for greener pastures over the border, just like Fokker did in WW1. What would they do if Germany ordered some Fokker G1's for the Luftwaffe (with German engines and armament) or M39/M40 armoured cars (with German turrets) for the Wehrmacht? Say no? The German-language DAF brochure recently found (see elswhere on the Overvalwagen Forum) is a sign of what could have happened.

In case the German threat diminished arms development would partly continue. For the Navy, for KNIL and maybe some people would be tempted by the Germans...

But I do not think the threat would diminish and just like during WW1 Holland would feel it constantly. 1941 would see new German offensives (Balkan, North Africa, Soviet-Union) and after the entry of the US in WW2 the situation would change again. Hitler might at some point decide that Holland should be occupied, for instance because it was a breach in the Atlantic Wall. Just like in WW1 when a real threat was there right until (and especially at) the end.

Holland would keep on arming itself the best they could.
Last edited by nuyt on January 8th, 2006, 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nuyt
nuyt

January 8th, 2006, 9:41 am #5

If I am remebering correctly, a Dutch shipyard (Wilton-Fijenoord?) had a manufacturing licence for the Landsverk turret. The Dutch Army had ordered 13 additional armored cars as "M.40"s (J. F. Bom) I suppose we could assume DAF could have produced at least a dozen per year, in addition to their other orders.
Thanks, Susan, did not know that. Would that include the right to build the Bofors 37mm gun? W-F already built/assembled a fine line of Bofors guns...

The Dutch thought they needed around 100 armoured cars (De Jong) and as you say DAF would probalby have been able to build a dozen a year or so. Meanwhile the first Landsverks (M36) were becoming obsolete soon (they could have used the turrets for the DAFs as well), so more orders were needed.

Available were the White Scout cars at the time and the Dutch might have bought a batch of these, just like KNIL (44) would.
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nuyt
nuyt

January 8th, 2006, 11:27 am #6

I am usually not into the "What if?" business, but I'd like to share some thoughts with you.

Suppose Nazi-Germany did not invade Holland in 1940 (as the Dutch had hoped and just like in WW1) and the country would stay neutral and out of trouble at least until Pearl Harbour. How would Dutch arms production and development have continued?

I do not know all outstanding Dutch orders in may 1940, but some of you might be able to help out.

Airforce:
- the Fokker G1 fighter might have been produced in greater numbers (the full 52 planes would haven been built plus the extra confiscated Spanish order) and production of the new Koolhoven FK-58 fighter (also ordered by France) might have started and be completed (36 pieces).
- Furthermore the Fokker D23 design might have been produced.
- All of this in modest numbers probably and depending on imports of engines.
- The Curtiss Hawks would have entered service in Holland and not diverted to KNIL and the Douglas dive-bombers would be operational.
- Some more Fokker and Koolhoven transport, training, recce and bomber planes could have been built as well. Some Fokker T9 bombers for KNIL for instance.
- Overall the airforce would be in good shape by the end of 1941 (though at the cost of KNIL's).

Navy:
- the extensive shipbuilding programme would have been continued and some of the ships (out of a few dozen destroyers, gunboats, cruisers, submarines and battlecruisers under construction) would have been added to the Navy in 1940 and 1941. Wilton-Feyenoord would have been able to build the guns, if enough material was at hand.
-Ships ready by end 1941 might be the K1, K2 and K3 gunboats, 3 out of four new destroyers, all 7 O21 class submarines, though not any of the bigger ships. Jan? Anything else planned or under construction?

Army vehicles:
- DAF would be able to convert lots more Chevrolets and Fords and imports from the US would simply continue (like they did to Germany right up to the US entry in the war);
- Model year 1941 and some 1942 GM and Ford models would make it to Holland as would probably some Chevrolet 4x4 G4100 series and other vehicles;
- DAF would have built more armoured cars. A second order for the 6x4 M39 was already under way in may 1940 (grebbeberg.nl). Additional batches could have been produced throughout 1940 and 1941 and several dozen of these cars would be in service by the end of 1941. Engines would come from the US and steel would have to be acquired there as well now the Belgian works were out of question. Getting the Landsverk/Bofors turrets might have become a problem but the Dutch could have built there own (larger) version and install the Bohler/AI 47mm gun. An excellent combination probably.
- the Dutch did not have tanks yet but they were after them all over Europe by 1940. Belgian and Czech tanks were inspected. Meanwhile DAF offered to build two tanks for training, based on the same DAF M39 armoured car. They needed one year. Could have been interesting. Imagine the M39 with tracks (and trados?). If successfull a small batch of these tanks with 47mm guns could have been produced by the end of 1941.
- Meanwhile Werkspoor had acquired the rights to build Christie tanks (national archives) and another tank type could have been developed based on the Christie suspension system and it could be produced in limited numbers. The result may have looked a bit like the Soviet BT7 series perhaps.
- Additional small numbers of US tanks could have been ordered, but we all know the sad ending of the Marmon-Herrington orders. More Dutch orders might have jammed the system even sooner.

Artillery:
- combined efforts of the AI, Werkspoor, Wilton-Feyenoord and others would allow the Dutch to extend their numbers of modern guns:
- Vickers 75mm and Bofors 40mm AA guns would have been produced in reasonable numbers, given enough imports of steel. The orders (37mm AA) to Rheinmetall would probalby have been fullfilled as they had been paid in return for butter.
- the order for 400 47mm Antitank guns to AI subcontractor Johan de Witt factory in Dordrecht would materialize. Also 47mm bunker guns would be produced by the AI.
- one or two dozen 105mm Bofors guns would be built by AI as well;
- Would Bofors deliver from Sweden under these circumstances?
- AA and AT defences by the end of 1941 would be excellent.

Light weapons:
-AI Hembrug already produced 6,5mm Mannlicher rifles and carbines, Lewis guns, Vickers machineguns.
- More machineguns (also for the planes and vehicles) and submachineguns would have to be bought in the US. That would be hard given all the known efforts of KNIL....

KNIL:
- KNIL might have been able to acquire some of the above artillery, like a few dozen 47mm AT guns and 40mm AA guns;
- KNIL might have built up a substantial number of DAF converted Chevrolets (4x4);
- Maybe a light 4x4 DAF armoured car with 47mm gun might have been developed for KNIL based on the AC3D?

Supplies:
-oil and other raw materials would have to be sent from the Indies, bought in the US and maybe a bit of steel might be bought in Sweden. Especially steel would have been a problem.
- aircraft engines and other fine stuff would have to be bought in the US.
- enough manpower would have been available in Holland but not in the colonies. Thousands of lightly armed men would have been sent to the East (a KL Indische Brigade of 3 battalions of infantry plus artillery and extra personnel, engineers, etc- all volunteers) and West Indies (an extra 1000 or so) to boost KNIL and Dutch presence.

Spoils:
- as a neutral power Holland would of course stay out of the developments elsewhere. But like in WW1 many (1 million) refugees from Belgium would cross the border, bringing many troops with their equipment as well as engineers etc. Some Belgian guns and vehicles (T15 light tanks, T13 tankdestroyers, Vickers tractors) would be incorporated in Dutch service as well as some French Panhard armoured cars (that took a wrong turn in Belgium when fleeing).

By 1942 the situation would change. Japan would threaten the Indies just the same and one way or another they would be lost. The weapons described above would soon be obsolete by that time and furhter developments would be necessary.

Could they have done it?

Any comments?

Nuyt
Some more remarks:

Number of AA en AT guns:

- by May 1940 Holland had some 400 Boehler type 47mm and HIH Siderius/AI 47mm guns. Add to that the 400 to be built by subcontractor JdW of Dord and by year's end 1941 the AT arsenal might have doubled.

- In May 1940 there were some 72-81 (depending on the source) ready 75mm AA guns (Vickers, AI and Skoda). According to De Jong there were another 100 (sic) finished AI 75mm guns, but without the Hazemeijer fire direction these were useless. A further 50 were supposed to be delivered still by Skoda.
Of course the Polish made orders for 40mm Bofors guns would not have materialized, but Hungary still had to deliver the rest of the 50 pieces ordered (12 had been on hand already).

- By end 1941 there would at least have been some 230 75mm guns as well as some 90 40mm, apart from further builds by Dutch companies and possible further orders to Hungary and Skoda. Add to that the batch of (36?) Rheinmetall 37mm guns.

Defences;

- The Grebbe lines and Water lines as well as the Fortress Holland would have been in a further state of improvement by end 1941. More casematies would have been built. Add to that 800 AT guns and over 350 modern AA guns, all concentrated in the Fortress Holland and the Grebbe lines, the airforce above it, well, that would look pretty impressive...

- The orders of the German 105mm field howitzer (120 pieces!) would have materialized to some degree (deliveries were already taking place by May 1940).

- Some more armoured cavalry units would be around or light brigades. These could slow down enemy advances or execute disturbing counterattacks. Maybe there would be a tank batalion.

- Training would be much more advanced, though ammo would be a problem (as it already was in May 1940).

Vehicle developments:

- As stated before DAF could have produced a second and third batch of M39/M40 6x4 37mm armoured cars in 1940 and 1941;

- Additional armoured cars and APCs could have been bought abroad: White Scout Cars eg;

- the 4x4 Alvis-Straussler AC3D as used by KNIL could have been copied in small numbers or acquired as the similar Csaba's from Hungary (if they delivered AA guns, why not armoured cars)

- DAF could have provided chassis for further APC's or scout cars to be build in Holland and for the KNIL overvalwagens;

- DAF could have built a small batch each of their two 1938 Ford armoured Commandantenwagen designs;

- DAF could have built production models of their amphibious car, their Martin 4x4 design for trucks, their T46 APC (on M39 chassis) and could have copied the Ford GP (as imported by KNIL);

- as for tanks: we have discussed the realistic possibilites of a DAF tank based on the M39 and a Werkspoor-Christie tank. Acquiring tanks abroad would have very difficult, considering the Marmon-Herrington story. They could try to buy Czech tanks, but I do not think the Germans would allow that as they would need everyting for their expanding Wehrmacht.

- meanwhile Sweden had some commercial designs, like the Landsverk L60, which they licenced out to Hungary (as Toldi light tank). If they delivered this design to Hungary, why not also to Holland? So a third tank model would have been available by 1941! Let's assume this would be the Wilton-Feijenoord-Landsverk tank, using the Landsverk 37mm turret or a newly designed 47mm one! Again, in limited numners only, but still an interesting thought...

Last edited by nuyt on January 8th, 2006, 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Susan Cross
Susan Cross

January 9th, 2006, 2:05 am #7

Don't know if the deal included 37mm Bofors gun.

I remember reading that a number of European countries (including Sweden and Spain) approached the Finns about buying captured Russian equipment after March 1940, including tanks, so maybe the Dutch could pick up vehicles there.
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Joined: July 20th, 2004, 4:40 pm

January 9th, 2006, 5:45 pm #8

they did try, but it turned out to be nothing in early 1940...
But maybe later, a couple of T26s and BT7s for training, maybe a KV1...
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Joined: August 22nd, 2005, 9:44 am

January 9th, 2006, 7:01 pm #9

In case the Dutch govt would decide it was no longer necessary to go on arming the country, that would indeed mean the end of some orders and developments. But probably not the Navy's building programme would be sacrificed, because that was mainly intended to protect the Indies where the threat would remain.

Also KNIL would now be able to take over some of the Dutch Army's orders and buy its much needed 47mm AT guns and AA as well as planes and vehicles. The Dutch colonies' oceans of money would simply buy it all.

On the other hand, what would the Dutch commercial arms industry do if large orders were cancelled? Fokker and DAF would lose money and they might be tempted to look for greener pastures over the border, just like Fokker did in WW1. What would they do if Germany ordered some Fokker G1's for the Luftwaffe (with German engines and armament) or M39/M40 armoured cars (with German turrets) for the Wehrmacht? Say no? The German-language DAF brochure recently found (see elswhere on the Overvalwagen Forum) is a sign of what could have happened.

In case the German threat diminished arms development would partly continue. For the Navy, for KNIL and maybe some people would be tempted by the Germans...

But I do not think the threat would diminish and just like during WW1 Holland would feel it constantly. 1941 would see new German offensives (Balkan, North Africa, Soviet-Union) and after the entry of the US in WW2 the situation would change again. Hitler might at some point decide that Holland should be occupied, for instance because it was a breach in the Atlantic Wall. Just like in WW1 when a real threat was there right until (and especially at) the end.

Holland would keep on arming itself the best they could.
Well, if the Dutch would have sold Fokker G.Is (that the Swedes had ordered), aircraft engines (Sweden was desperate for engines and fighters 1940 and 1941), oil and rubber to Sweden, I am sure Sweden would have sold AT guns and artillery for those - and I am sure Sweden and the Netherlands, who were sharing ship and naval guns designs would enter a fruitful exchange of blueprints of ships, AT, AA and ATY guns, armoured cars and raw materials.
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nuyt
nuyt

January 10th, 2006, 5:08 pm #10

I did not know Sweden ordered the G1! Apart from the engines (which I presume the Dutch would need just as desperately) this trade could indeed have become very interesting! Maybe we can add the Bofors 15cm howitzer, that was built in licence by the Swiss during WW2, as well to the Dutch imaginary arsenal from 1941...
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