Fazant commanding officer dies as a prisoner of war?

Fazant commanding officer dies as a prisoner of war?

Joined: September 23rd, 2009, 6:52 am

September 23rd, 2009, 7:12 am #1

Hi Everyone,
Is there a definitive list of Dutch Prisoners of war for all ranks?
and does anyone know the co of the Djampea I have 2E Officier P T Geelhard however I tried the Sources in Holland and they dont know him and yet he is recorded as the CO?
The poster reference the Fazant please let us know his name! or could anyone else inform me and Bob?
Best regards Ian
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Joined: December 23rd, 2007, 11:46 am

September 26th, 2009, 9:16 am #2

Hi Ian,

I have P.T. Geelhoed listed as commanding officer of Djampea. He had the rank of "2nd officer" in the Gouvernements Marine.

[Source: Ph.M. Bosscher "De Koninklijke Marine in de Tweede Wereldoorlog", volume 2, pp. 391 and F.C. Backer Dirks "De Gouvernements Marine in het voormalige Nederlands-Indië 1861-1949", volume 3, pp. 157.
Last edited by Visje1981 on September 26th, 2009, 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: December 23rd, 2007, 11:46 am

September 26th, 2009, 9:23 am #3

Hi Everyone,
Is there a definitive list of Dutch Prisoners of war for all ranks?
and does anyone know the co of the Djampea I have 2E Officier P T Geelhard however I tried the Sources in Holland and they dont know him and yet he is recorded as the CO?
The poster reference the Fazant please let us know his name! or could anyone else inform me and Bob?
Best regards Ian
Commanding officer of Fazant was E.J. Keizer, he held the rank of "Gezaghebber" (Bosscher). Another source mentions his name was F.J. Keizer (Backer Dirks)

I checked www.ogs.nl and I found the following:

Keizer, Frederik Jacob
born Haarlem October 2, 1898
died Semarang (Bangkong camp) April 23, 1945.
Luitenant-ter-zee 1e klasse.

This officer was not a graduate of the naval academy, so that makes him Naval Reserve (KMR).

Last edited by Visje1981 on September 26th, 2009, 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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IAN
IAN

September 26th, 2009, 9:46 am #4

Hello Jan,
Thanks for that! any chance you know his Christian names for Geelhoed? Many thanks for this Do you want my updated casualty lists which are in Excel!
Best regards Ian
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Joined: December 23rd, 2007, 11:46 am

September 26th, 2009, 12:52 pm #5

Hi Ian,

Yes, would love to receive that list!

Just checked some more sources. It seems that "F.J." are the correct initials. There was a F.J. Keizer with the rank of "Gezaghebber" in the Gouvernements Marine. Gezaghebber equaled the rank of Luitenant-ter-zee der 1e klasse (Lieutenant-Commander). It seems however that F.J. Keizer was not actually Marine Reserve, but was militarized with the rest of the Gouvernements Marine in september 1939.

The same goes for P.T. Geelhoed. I'm sorry, but I don't have any additional information on him. He held the rank of "2e officier", which was equal to Luitenant-ter-zee der 3e klasse (Sublieutenant/Ensign).

Both officers are listed in a section titled "Personnel of the Gouvernements Marine to whom the contents of the Royal Decree of March 7, 1929 apply". I'm not familiar with the contents of this decree.

Source: Naamboek Koninklijke Marine 1940, pp.95
Last edited by Visje1981 on September 26th, 2009, 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Felix
Felix

September 27th, 2009, 1:18 am #6

Generally the officers which were militarized in the Navy were either LT jg or ARO Sgt. The reason is that the 3rd Lt rank did not yet excist in 1942. The graduate midshipmen had the 1 stripe were still revered to as "jonker".

The usual practice for merchant marine and gouvernements navy types was the to start at the lowest officer rank possible and work up by seniority. The highest rank they could attain was Overste or Lt Col. Im not sure any one of the seagoing GM had that rank. Their rank wasn't transferable either. They would not be able to serve in that rank in the regular navy.
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Tom Womack
Tom Womack

September 27th, 2009, 8:38 am #7

I'm not familiar with this terminology. Can you please spell it out further? Thanks.
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Joined: December 23rd, 2007, 11:46 am

September 27th, 2009, 9:24 am #8

Generally the officers which were militarized in the Navy were either LT jg or ARO Sgt. The reason is that the 3rd Lt rank did not yet excist in 1942. The graduate midshipmen had the 1 stripe were still revered to as "jonker".

The usual practice for merchant marine and gouvernements navy types was the to start at the lowest officer rank possible and work up by seniority. The highest rank they could attain was Overste or Lt Col. Im not sure any one of the seagoing GM had that rank. Their rank wasn't transferable either. They would not be able to serve in that rank in the regular navy.
Felix,

I'm not entirely clear on the point you're trying to make, could you elaborate?

Also, could you quote a source for your statement. I have the following passage from "Naamboek Officieren 1940", pages 16 and 17, which states:

"Een gezaghebber is in rang gelijkgesteld met een luitenant-ter-zee der 1ste klasse; een 1ste officier en een 1ste werktuigkundige zijn in rang gelijk geteld met een luitenant ter zee der 2e klasse; een 2de en een 3de officier zoomede een 2de en een 3de werktuigkundige zijn in rang gelijkgesteld met een luitenant ter zee der 3de klasse"

Translation:

A "gezaghebber" is equal in rank to a lieutenant-commander. A "1st officer" and a "1st engineer" are equal in rank to a lieutenant. A 2nd and a 3rd officer and a 2nd and a 3rd engineer are equal in rank to a sublieutenant".

Please note that the ranks of gezaghebber, eerste officier etc. don't translate well into English. When I mention "1st officer", it's actually a rank in the Gouvernements Marine and does not necessarily indicate the position of the person on board a ship (where the 1st officer indicates "executive officer" (XO), the second in command on board that ship). Same goes for the engineers.
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Joined: December 23rd, 2007, 11:46 am

September 27th, 2009, 9:24 am #9

I'm not familiar with this terminology. Can you please spell it out further? Thanks.
Hi Tom,

ARO is an abbreviation for "Aspirant Reserve Officier".

Jan
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Tom Womack
Tom Womack

September 27th, 2009, 5:05 pm #10

Thanks (N/T)
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