Whats wrong with Delayed Sword?

Whats wrong with Delayed Sword?

Joined: September 17th, 2007, 5:06 pm

September 24th, 2007, 3:11 pm #1

Delayed Sword Perspective

First lets look at the differences of how the technique is taught. I understand there are many different ways that this technique is taught.

1st Example:
Attack: The attacker grabs your left lapel with his right hand and his right foot is forward.

Defense: Facing 12:00 step back towards 6:00 into a right neutral bow.
As you settle your base strike the attackers right arm with an inward hammering block.

Now draw up into a right 45 deg cat stance as you follow up with a right front kick to the groin.

Now as you place you right front kick onto the floor follow up with a right outward hand sword to the right outside of the attackers neck.

This is the version taught at many schools. I teach it as well for the curriculum, however I don’t agree with it. Anyone wish to discuss why this is taught and what may be wrong with it?
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

September 24th, 2007, 3:54 pm #2

As you know Kenpo is a system and is taught in different phases just like learning to speak and learning to write.

Anyway, this is the first technique of the system, which means it is taught to beginners. You step back since as a beginner it makes more sense to retreat than to advance. You want to get away from trouble and make distance your best friend.

It should be taught as a grab to a beginner as the dead attacks are a little easier to grasp at first than semi-live and live. It is no mystery why the system was set up as the first three techniques in each belt up through green (24 system) were: 1) defense against dead attack; 2) defense against a semi live attack; and 3) defense against live attack.

If you are into understanding and teaching the "system" delayed sword makes total sense in the way it is initally taught, or the way it should be anyway.

Once you get a handle on things (especially Ideal phase) delayed sword can be manipulated in many ways.

Yours,

Michael Miller, CKF
www.millersdojo.com
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Joined: September 17th, 2007, 5:06 pm

September 24th, 2007, 3:59 pm #3


Mr. Miller,
I do understand and agree with what you are saying. Grabs are Grabs because to think they will not happen is not sound thinking. The same is applied to pushes.
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Joined: June 21st, 2004, 7:05 pm

September 24th, 2007, 4:40 pm #4

Delayed Sword Perspective

First lets look at the differences of how the technique is taught. I understand there are many different ways that this technique is taught.

1st Example:
Attack: The attacker grabs your left lapel with his right hand and his right foot is forward.

Defense: Facing 12:00 step back towards 6:00 into a right neutral bow.
As you settle your base strike the attackers right arm with an inward hammering block.

Now draw up into a right 45 deg cat stance as you follow up with a right front kick to the groin.

Now as you place you right front kick onto the floor follow up with a right outward hand sword to the right outside of the attackers neck.

This is the version taught at many schools. I teach it as well for the curriculum, however I don’t agree with it. Anyone wish to discuss why this is taught and what may be wrong with it?
You are disagreeing with the grab? I normally teach it with the grab as if the attacker is getting ready to punch.

What about the technique do you disagree with?

-jeff l
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Joined: September 17th, 2007, 5:06 pm

September 24th, 2007, 4:44 pm #5

Jeff,
I do not disagree with the grab sir. I dis agree with it being taught as a push or a punch.
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Joined: September 17th, 2007, 5:06 pm

September 24th, 2007, 4:48 pm #6

You are disagreeing with the grab? I normally teach it with the grab as if the attacker is getting ready to punch.

What about the technique do you disagree with?

-jeff l
I also do not agree with the kick due to alingment considerations, I do not agre with the angle of the inward block, or if it should be a block at all. There are other aspects as well. I will explain as we go throught this thread. I am not saying that this tech cant be applied with a level of effectiveness. The other question is still why was it taught in this manner to begain with?
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Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

September 24th, 2007, 5:27 pm #7

one handed assault from the front. One of my new favorite quotes is from a recent guest (to a student), who said, "You mean you didn't know that Delayed Sword is a defense against a thrusting knife attack to the throat?"

We gotta introduce the non-coms to the language of motion somehow, and in a manner tame enough to ensure they not only return, but "stay, pay, and refer" their friends and family. Once vocabulary is spoken fluently, we can start looking at biomechanical differences in the attacker that indicate striking or vertical grappling (nature of assault, or "catalyst" as one has mentioned); contact and strike manipulation from within the phrases of the techniques themselves, and so on. In a black belt class, using DS as a template, you should be able to visit it twice a week for a coupla months, and never cover it the same way twice.

At least, in my own opinion.

Lovin the kenpo-oriented threads, Sir!

D.
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Joined: June 21st, 2004, 7:05 pm

September 24th, 2007, 6:03 pm #8

I also do not agree with the kick due to alingment considerations, I do not agre with the angle of the inward block, or if it should be a block at all. There are other aspects as well. I will explain as we go throught this thread. I am not saying that this tech cant be applied with a level of effectiveness. The other question is still why was it taught in this manner to begain with?
I like to make the first block, more of a hammerfist to the inner forarm at more of a 45 degree downward angle as i settle into my neutral bow utilizing marriage of gravity/body alignment. As far as the kick goes, we teach to wait for the kick when the attacker comes back into the fight from the first block/strike.

What do you see wrong with the way you see it taught?

-jeff l
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Joined: September 17th, 2007, 5:06 pm

September 24th, 2007, 6:12 pm #9

one handed assault from the front. One of my new favorite quotes is from a recent guest (to a student), who said, "You mean you didn't know that Delayed Sword is a defense against a thrusting knife attack to the throat?"

We gotta introduce the non-coms to the language of motion somehow, and in a manner tame enough to ensure they not only return, but "stay, pay, and refer" their friends and family. Once vocabulary is spoken fluently, we can start looking at biomechanical differences in the attacker that indicate striking or vertical grappling (nature of assault, or "catalyst" as one has mentioned); contact and strike manipulation from within the phrases of the techniques themselves, and so on. In a black belt class, using DS as a template, you should be able to visit it twice a week for a coupla months, and never cover it the same way twice.

At least, in my own opinion.

Lovin the kenpo-oriented threads, Sir!

D.
Lets look at the name:
Delayed Sword: Is the delay based on there is no threat with the grab?, Is it delayed because of the mental speed necessary to precive the attack? Is it delayed from the follow up after the kick?

Lets look at the inward block:

Is a block needed to a non-threating sitituation that is designed to break the radial nerve?

Is it actually intended as a block,or is it the continuation of the circular movement that came after the hammerfist to the orbital socket of the eye? If it is the continuation then would this change the path of action, making the stike an inward downward diagonial block thus transfering the weight to the front leg( as in alternating mace)?

What about the kick?

Is it a front ball kick?
Or perhaps a ball roundhouse to to the positional check of the attackers front leg.
Is the kick just an insert?

What about the chop?

Does the chop move on a straight line tracking up the attackers arm?
Does it roll over the top to make a tear drop shape befor striking? Which would have you striking downward using gravitional marriage.
Would it roll under to make the tear drop shape and striking upward using reverse gravitional marriage?

Is the handsword the third move or the second using the left hand as opposed to the right?

Or how about this:

Is Delayed Sword just reversing mace?

Last edited by marshallskenpo on September 24th, 2007, 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: September 17th, 2007, 5:06 pm

September 24th, 2007, 6:17 pm #10

I like to make the first block, more of a hammerfist to the inner forarm at more of a 45 degree downward angle as i settle into my neutral bow utilizing marriage of gravity/body alignment. As far as the kick goes, we teach to wait for the kick when the attacker comes back into the fight from the first block/strike.

What do you see wrong with the way you see it taught?

-jeff l
What do I see wrong as it is taught?

Nothing. As long as we understand why it is taught in this manner.
Also understand that not all cirriculums teach it this way.

Brad Marshall
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