What are your thoughts????

What are your thoughts????

Joined: November 9th, 2011, 4:28 am

November 9th, 2011, 5:14 am #1

While I am new to Kenpo and here, I am not new to the martial arts. I have a 4th Dan in Tae Kwon Do (ITF), a 3rd Dan in Tang Soo Do, a 1st Dan in Hapkido,a 1st Dan in Tae Kwon Do (WTF Kukkiwon)and a Blue Belt in Brazilian Jujitsu. Now, I consider myself to be a reasonable person, and I do not get upset or frustrated very easily. But, I have recently read comments from people saying Time in Grade is ridiculous. That if you can learn all the required techniques for testing for your next belt in two weeks, you should not have to wait a certain amount of time. Now I will admit that when I switched from WTF to ITF it did not take me 4 years to get my 1st Dan. However, that was at the discretion of my instructor. I don't know if I am out of my mind and stuck in the old days, but whenever I have heard my students show such disrespect to the martial arts, I have LET them part ways from my school. As far as I am concerned getting your next belt has never been about just knowing how to perform certain techniques. It was about technique, attitude, mindset, community service, etc....

Am I crazy? What are your thoughts as to Time in Grade? What

If I ever have to use what I know, I will have failed my training.
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Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

November 9th, 2011, 5:23 am #2

Some guy gets to the studio tywice a week, for 1 hour of training each time. He does this for a year. Another guy trains 6 to 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. He does this for a year. Each guy has been in kenpo for 1 year. Who has learned more, done more, trained more, developed more?

If time in grade equals time on duff, screw it. If it equals time at task, then we can see the results in skill and understanding. Making the original question moot in its own light.
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Joined: November 9th, 2011, 4:28 am

November 9th, 2011, 5:47 am #3

I understand where you are coming from as far as physical abilities are concerned. Now are we talking about martial arts or self defense? Now when I teach self defense classes it is all about get the technique down and move on to the next. There is a difference between a person learning a martial art and a person learning how to defend themselves or fight. I think that people that are only interested in performing the techniques and none of the mental aspects that go all with being a martial artist, do not know what martial arts are all about, and do not what they are missing out on.

If I ever have to use what I know, I will have failed my training.
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Joined: May 7th, 2004, 11:02 am

November 9th, 2011, 1:29 pm #4

While I am new to Kenpo and here, I am not new to the martial arts. I have a 4th Dan in Tae Kwon Do (ITF), a 3rd Dan in Tang Soo Do, a 1st Dan in Hapkido,a 1st Dan in Tae Kwon Do (WTF Kukkiwon)and a Blue Belt in Brazilian Jujitsu. Now, I consider myself to be a reasonable person, and I do not get upset or frustrated very easily. But, I have recently read comments from people saying Time in Grade is ridiculous. That if you can learn all the required techniques for testing for your next belt in two weeks, you should not have to wait a certain amount of time. Now I will admit that when I switched from WTF to ITF it did not take me 4 years to get my 1st Dan. However, that was at the discretion of my instructor. I don't know if I am out of my mind and stuck in the old days, but whenever I have heard my students show such disrespect to the martial arts, I have LET them part ways from my school. As far as I am concerned getting your next belt has never been about just knowing how to perform certain techniques. It was about technique, attitude, mindset, community service, etc....

Am I crazy? What are your thoughts as to Time in Grade? What

If I ever have to use what I know, I will have failed my training.
Someone once said (I guess it may even have been here on KN) that a black belt is not just about knowing the art but also about dedication to the art.

So even when a truly talented person might be able to learn the stuff in a short timespan, no-one can show dedication in the same time, because dedication means that you stick with it for a long time.

So while ofcourse actual training time is a factor as Dave pointed out, there is and should be a guideline for time in a grade. Does that mean one can never deviate from that guideline? No it doesn't. If the circumstances ask for it, a faster promotion is always possible.

IMHO there's a few factors involved in determining if a person qualifies for promotion:
- Knowing the required stuff
- Time in grade
- Training circumstances
- Accomplishments for the art

So time in grade is only one of the factors. Can someone be promoted if one of the factors ain't right? In my opinion they can, but that should be compensated by extra points at the other factors.

BTW:
The time in grade factor should be read as the time one has actively been at the art, during a period of time with no substantial gaps, directly before the moment of promotion. I have seen people quit their training for a period of time, come back after years and get promoted in no time. Even if their actual time on the mat totals the required time, I don't see this as dedication.

***************************************
Marcel de Jong, 4th Black from the Netherlands

http://www.katsudokenpo.nl
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Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

November 9th, 2011, 7:14 pm #5

While I am new to Kenpo and here, I am not new to the martial arts. I have a 4th Dan in Tae Kwon Do (ITF), a 3rd Dan in Tang Soo Do, a 1st Dan in Hapkido,a 1st Dan in Tae Kwon Do (WTF Kukkiwon)and a Blue Belt in Brazilian Jujitsu. Now, I consider myself to be a reasonable person, and I do not get upset or frustrated very easily. But, I have recently read comments from people saying Time in Grade is ridiculous. That if you can learn all the required techniques for testing for your next belt in two weeks, you should not have to wait a certain amount of time. Now I will admit that when I switched from WTF to ITF it did not take me 4 years to get my 1st Dan. However, that was at the discretion of my instructor. I don't know if I am out of my mind and stuck in the old days, but whenever I have heard my students show such disrespect to the martial arts, I have LET them part ways from my school. As far as I am concerned getting your next belt has never been about just knowing how to perform certain techniques. It was about technique, attitude, mindset, community service, etc....

Am I crazy? What are your thoughts as to Time in Grade? What

If I ever have to use what I know, I will have failed my training.
Time in grade is ridiculous because it is based on the assumption of equality across the student spectrum.

If Joe and Jack both earn a yellow belt rank after three months of training because the instructor has a policy that testing for yellow belt has a minimum requirement of three months time as a white belt student.


At the time of testing both Joe and Jack demonstrate the same knowledge of ten self-defense techniques and one form but when they spar Joe cannot pull off anything that comes close to what he was taught while Jack consistently pulls off most of the basics that he was taught.

Jack spent 2 hours every day on his own drilling the techniques and forms but Joe is a family man, who has to work long hours at the office to support his family and never spent any time training on his own.
When asked why they have chosen to study the martial arts Jack explains that he wants to be able to protect himself and his loved ones while Joe says he was looking for a fun way to get in shape.

Now looking at this situation from a commercial teachers side, Joe has the better paying job, he has children that he could possibly sign up for the kids class and he always pays his dues on time. Jack struggles to pay his dues and is always a week or two behind, he works at a fast food place and has no kids but has a lot of potential taking to the art like a fish to water.


So after three months Jack has earned a yellow belt and Joe has to be given one in order to keep him happy as he has met the Time in grade requirement and actual applicable skill is not important enough to the instructor. Keeping paying students at the expense of the art is the name of the game.


Neither Jack nor Joe could tell the Instructor was just a greedy prick because he consistently preaches the Martial Code of Ethics and emphasized doing charity work, he even asks for donations every single class for various worthy causes. Anyway 1000 years later Jack and Joes chosen martial art becomes a worthless laughing stock as Jack became an expert but never opened a school while Joe had the money to open a franchise of schools all over the world and teach his style of mediocrity, which spread like cancer.
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Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

November 10th, 2011, 12:18 am #6

And well said.
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Joined: January 19th, 2004, 2:11 am

November 10th, 2011, 12:33 am #7

I understand where you are coming from as far as physical abilities are concerned. Now are we talking about martial arts or self defense? Now when I teach self defense classes it is all about get the technique down and move on to the next. There is a difference between a person learning a martial art and a person learning how to defend themselves or fight. I think that people that are only interested in performing the techniques and none of the mental aspects that go all with being a martial artist, do not know what martial arts are all about, and do not what they are missing out on.

If I ever have to use what I know, I will have failed my training.
If I ever have to use my training, I hope it works, and it won't have been a failure on my part because sometimes, you just can't avoid trouble.

If I ever have to use my gun, I won't consider that a failure either, I just hope I get to be the one not in the hospital or morgue.

I make almost every effort to avoid trouble, but I won't back down to someone who just needs an *** whoopin'. In fact, had a drunk Indian approach me on the sidewalk while I was working the other day. Starting talking about screw the English (in not so nice words) and got really close. I checked environment, watched for external weapons, and prepared for targets with my preference of weapons.

He slinked off after I stood tall waiting for him to get froggy and jump, he didn't.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:18 pm

November 10th, 2011, 2:30 am #8

While I am new to Kenpo and here, I am not new to the martial arts. I have a 4th Dan in Tae Kwon Do (ITF), a 3rd Dan in Tang Soo Do, a 1st Dan in Hapkido,a 1st Dan in Tae Kwon Do (WTF Kukkiwon)and a Blue Belt in Brazilian Jujitsu. Now, I consider myself to be a reasonable person, and I do not get upset or frustrated very easily. But, I have recently read comments from people saying Time in Grade is ridiculous. That if you can learn all the required techniques for testing for your next belt in two weeks, you should not have to wait a certain amount of time. Now I will admit that when I switched from WTF to ITF it did not take me 4 years to get my 1st Dan. However, that was at the discretion of my instructor. I don't know if I am out of my mind and stuck in the old days, but whenever I have heard my students show such disrespect to the martial arts, I have LET them part ways from my school. As far as I am concerned getting your next belt has never been about just knowing how to perform certain techniques. It was about technique, attitude, mindset, community service, etc....

Am I crazy? What are your thoughts as to Time in Grade? What

If I ever have to use what I know, I will have failed my training.
Time in rank is ridiculous.

With the background you have, you should have developed an alphabet of motion, much of which should translate to Kenpo. You should know many of the principles of movement already (although you may have learned them with different names). Others you should pick up far more quickly than the average Joe off the street. Should you have to put in the same time in rank before your next promotion?

I've had students with high ranks in other arts progress from white to purple while other students were working from orange to purple. By the time they were at green the pace had evened out considerably. I've had other students that simply weren't going to get past purple because they didn't have the work ethic.

Experience, maturity, attitude, athleticism, ability to learn new material, work ethic - all those factors trump the clock.

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

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Joined: November 9th, 2011, 4:28 am

November 10th, 2011, 2:56 am #9

Time in grade is ridiculous because it is based on the assumption of equality across the student spectrum.

If Joe and Jack both earn a yellow belt rank after three months of training because the instructor has a policy that testing for yellow belt has a minimum requirement of three months time as a white belt student.


At the time of testing both Joe and Jack demonstrate the same knowledge of ten self-defense techniques and one form but when they spar Joe cannot pull off anything that comes close to what he was taught while Jack consistently pulls off most of the basics that he was taught.

Jack spent 2 hours every day on his own drilling the techniques and forms but Joe is a family man, who has to work long hours at the office to support his family and never spent any time training on his own.
When asked why they have chosen to study the martial arts Jack explains that he wants to be able to protect himself and his loved ones while Joe says he was looking for a fun way to get in shape.

Now looking at this situation from a commercial teachers side, Joe has the better paying job, he has children that he could possibly sign up for the kids class and he always pays his dues on time. Jack struggles to pay his dues and is always a week or two behind, he works at a fast food place and has no kids but has a lot of potential taking to the art like a fish to water.


So after three months Jack has earned a yellow belt and Joe has to be given one in order to keep him happy as he has met the Time in grade requirement and actual applicable skill is not important enough to the instructor. Keeping paying students at the expense of the art is the name of the game.


Neither Jack nor Joe could tell the Instructor was just a greedy prick because he consistently preaches the Martial Code of Ethics and emphasized doing charity work, he even asks for donations every single class for various worthy causes. Anyway 1000 years later Jack and Joes chosen martial art becomes a worthless laughing stock as Jack became an expert but never opened a school while Joe had the money to open a franchise of schools all over the world and teach his style of mediocrity, which spread like cancer.
There are schools out there that will promote anyone that pays tuition to them. Now let's say that Jack and Joe have each hit the Time in Grade requirement to test. Any good instructor would not allow Joe to test for his next belt. A decent instructor would fail Joe. Now as far as Jack goes. I don't care how good you are at doing a technique, not every Black Belt is capable of being an instructor. There is a difference between performing a technique and teaching one.

If I ever have to use what I know, I will have failed my training.
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Joined: November 9th, 2011, 4:28 am

November 10th, 2011, 3:05 am #10

Time in rank is ridiculous.

With the background you have, you should have developed an alphabet of motion, much of which should translate to Kenpo. You should know many of the principles of movement already (although you may have learned them with different names). Others you should pick up far more quickly than the average Joe off the street. Should you have to put in the same time in rank before your next promotion?

I've had students with high ranks in other arts progress from white to purple while other students were working from orange to purple. By the time they were at green the pace had evened out considerably. I've had other students that simply weren't going to get past purple because they didn't have the work ethic.

Experience, maturity, attitude, athleticism, ability to learn new material, work ethic - all those factors trump the clock.

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com
I believe that because a person has martial arts experience, that they should be held to higher standards that everyone else. I will not accept a yellow belt in Kenpo until I can instinctively land in a neutral bow. I guess I should have clarified that I was referring to any one who just walks in off the street with no or little martial arts training.

If I ever have to use what I know, I will have failed my training.
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