Stance Set 1 and Long Form 1,

Stance Set 1 and Long Form 1,

Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

February 3rd, 2010, 12:37 am #1

or, how we emphasis the different reasons for cat stances.

Contrast and compare for yourself.

StaS1 - show the cat because it is not transitory, the cat teaches transitions of weight shifting, balance, knee Flexion and hip rotation prior to a counter attack (technique), or establishing a rooted stance in a new direction.


LF1 - the cat is not held as in StaS1, it is transitory and is not emphasized the same as StaS1.

Holding the transitory cat in LF1 usually means that the leg not moving, will straighten because the student, did not shift weight BEFORE they moved their front foot. It seems that inertia plays a part in training, so that when we 'show' the cat while stepping through reverse to the next NB, a step is added and a series of bad habits creep in.

So, who's dealing students that hold the cat stance when stepping through reverse in LF1?

An error in how the cat is emphasized when learning the form is the culprit me thinks.

I feel better now that I got that off my chest.
Clark
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 27th, 2009, 2:50 am

February 3rd, 2010, 3:56 am #2

to hold and show the Cat for maybe a second (if that) on the first step through reverse in Long 1, but just to know it's there for the rest of the form. However we were also drilled to be sure the rear leg remained bent at all costs so to speak.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

February 3rd, 2010, 4:50 pm #3

This link (bottom of page) has pictures no video...It looks like rear leg is pretty straight...

Flexation in the bending of knee is important, should always keep bent, is good, try, never have arm or knee in an extended position IMHO...Some who work out and muscular can not fully extend I have noticed...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drryan26.htm

The joint of the knee and elbow are very week at the extended position, above link explains various reasons...

http://www.georgiakenpo.net/technique_o ... ique_5.htm

Regards,
Gary
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: May 23rd, 2009, 9:39 pm

February 3rd, 2010, 10:35 pm #4

to hold and show the Cat for maybe a second (if that) on the first step through reverse in Long 1, but just to know it's there for the rest of the form. However we were also drilled to be sure the rear leg remained bent at all costs so to speak.
I as well hold the cat briefly in move one only to show it and then it is assumed the rest of the time. People that will straighten the leg are just people who have not learned how to do a cat properly and/or have poor body mechanics IMO.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

February 4th, 2010, 5:41 pm #5

to hold and show the Cat for maybe a second (if that) on the first step through reverse in Long 1, but just to know it's there for the rest of the form. However we were also drilled to be sure the rear leg remained bent at all costs so to speak.
The video at this link is good...

Shows the bent knee position, well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtYbHtXPNg

His rank is not important...

Gary
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

February 4th, 2010, 8:26 pm #6

to hold and show the Cat for maybe a second (if that) on the first step through reverse in Long 1, but just to know it's there for the rest of the form. However we were also drilled to be sure the rear leg remained bent at all costs so to speak.
You are supposed to hold the cat (3rd move of Long 1) for a split second and for a valuable reason. I am surprised nobody has stated that reason.

It's quite simple.

Also, two common error's are to raise up (straightening the leg as you mentioned) and also break the heel (lifting the rear heel off the ground in transition)--two no, no's.


NOTE: Two grammatical edits and one spelling edit
Last edited by millhouse23 on February 4th, 2010, 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

February 4th, 2010, 11:08 pm #7

"break the heel (lifting the rear heel off the ground in transition"

Do you mean from the forward bow INTO the first cat stance? If you do I can't see how that can be accomplished (stepping back) without lifting the heel and still call what is happening a step through maneuver.

Mike, you and I have been down this road before so let's share our movement ideas instead of trying to defend them, okay?

Why I do not stop the cat at any point in LF1; do you stop the cats in in SF2 and LF2? I do not. Why do something that is then un-learned later on?

Transitory cats are seen and not stopped. So if it's good enough for SF2 and LF2 then it should be good enough for LF1. Just an opinion.

Clark
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

February 4th, 2010, 11:31 pm #8

I agree.

"Do you mean from the forward bow INTO the first cat stance?"

You got it.

"If you do I can't see how that can be accomplished (stepping back) without lifting the heel and still call what is happening a step through maneuver."

It can be accomplished in that manner. The reason for the cat pause in Long form 1 is to show that you understand the proper weight distribution and transition during a step through reverse from a forward bow position. Up until that point you have only done step through reverses from a neutral position.

You do not want to break the heel. You settle back into a cat with 90 percent of your weight on your rear leg, holding the cat (in the long form 1 situation we are speaking of) to show you know this information, and then into your left neutral bow without raising your height.

A step through is a means of traveling either forward or in reverse while changing sides (either right to left or left to right), which is what you are doing here--you are just going from a forward to a neutral rather than a neutral to a neutral.

"Why I do not stop the cat at any point in LF1; do you stop the cats in in SF2 and LF2?"

In short 2, yes, because that is the "normal" stance of the form and demonstrates catting to the center to pick up a new line of travel.

"Why do something that is then un-learned later on?"

All stances are frozen transitions. If you don't stop, there isn't a stance. In this case of Long 1, we do stop. In reality you wouldn't stop. We are building muscle memory in the forms--there are not the street.

"Transitory cats are seen and not stopped."

I agree, except for certain areas of certain forms where they are there for a reason. Not everything is combative.


I am not saying what you do is wrong, Clark. I believe that if what you are doing makes sense according to logic and reason and you can actually explain the logic behind it, it is all good. My issue is that forms in our system teach certain things and they shouldn't be changed. Everything else, however, can be changed.

Maybe we just have a different viewpoints on the value/validity of forms and why we have them?

Your thoughts?
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

February 5th, 2010, 1:16 am #9

I guess I better learn to duck! LOL

Okay, walked through your method (assuming I am gettin' ya on this) and what I did was pivot my left foot back in to the neutral (45 degree angle) bow position PRIOR TO sliding the fright foot back into the cat. Now I can see how you would hold that first cat stance ever so slightly. Makes sense to do it that way. Not for me, but that's my problem and no one else's.

This is counter intuitive to moving backwards where a reverse step through is called for, buy my logic is mine and this is why we do things differently.

As long as I see a step through movement instead of two stance changes I guess we are getting to the end with separate but each valid methods.

Nice talkin' at ya.

Clark
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

February 5th, 2010, 5:53 pm #10

Thanks for the chat. Have you ever read Lee Wedlake's forms books? They are very informative. My lineage is from the Planas way of doing things since my instructor was under him for twelve years. Wedlake was under Planas for years as well. I feel that Planas and Wedlake know more about the way our system is laid out than most. Just my opinon. I much prefer doing the forms their way as they are laid out informatively and categorized with logic in mind.

Just my preference. Lee's books can really get you thinking about what's really going on in the forms, in my opinion.
Last edited by millhouse23 on February 5th, 2010, 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share