Sparring (freestyle) vs. techniques

Sparring (freestyle) vs. techniques

Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

December 6th, 2010, 10:35 pm #1

Something Clark said below sparked my interest. Thank you, Clark.

I would like to know how you Kenpoists view sparring. I've noticed that many tend to try the self-defense tech. during sparring. It seems that Clark is on that line of thinking, but I'm not sure. Nothing against Clark, of course, but that is not the way I think.

Sparring and techniques, in my view, are totally different animals. Also, totally different mindsets. Techniques were created in our system as case studies of motion. Yes, you are learning some ways to protect yourself on the street, but to think that you are going to pull them off in sparring (especially against a good fighter) is crazy.

I come from a boxing background. I love boxing. When I spar, I favor my hands and I keep my hands up, elbows in, chin tucked (not too much, of course)and shoulders relaxed. I use a lot of head movement, body movement and foot movement - as well as feints. I also alter the essence of my movement and use a lot of set ups.

I'm not into the Kenpo sparring. Sorry guys. Since I come from a full contact background, I've found that a lot of the ways Kenpo people are taught sparring (B1a and so on) won't work very well against a skilled full-contact fighter. It will work well in regular martial arts tournaments, but in full-contact (like MMA) it wouldn't do well, in my opinion.

Since Kenpo was designed for street, it's quite logical that it would have some glitches for sport. Wouldn't you agree?

I still feel, however, that if you have strong basics (from constant practice), and great conditioning (along with humility and strong will) you will do well in sport and street.

Michael Miller
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Joined: September 23rd, 2007, 2:37 am

December 7th, 2010, 2:15 am #2
































Last edited by DanPuleo on December 7th, 2010, 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

December 7th, 2010, 4:08 am #3

Something Clark said below sparked my interest. Thank you, Clark.

I would like to know how you Kenpoists view sparring. I've noticed that many tend to try the self-defense tech. during sparring. It seems that Clark is on that line of thinking, but I'm not sure. Nothing against Clark, of course, but that is not the way I think.

Sparring and techniques, in my view, are totally different animals. Also, totally different mindsets. Techniques were created in our system as case studies of motion. Yes, you are learning some ways to protect yourself on the street, but to think that you are going to pull them off in sparring (especially against a good fighter) is crazy.

I come from a boxing background. I love boxing. When I spar, I favor my hands and I keep my hands up, elbows in, chin tucked (not too much, of course)and shoulders relaxed. I use a lot of head movement, body movement and foot movement - as well as feints. I also alter the essence of my movement and use a lot of set ups.

I'm not into the Kenpo sparring. Sorry guys. Since I come from a full contact background, I've found that a lot of the ways Kenpo people are taught sparring (B1a and so on) won't work very well against a skilled full-contact fighter. It will work well in regular martial arts tournaments, but in full-contact (like MMA) it wouldn't do well, in my opinion.

Since Kenpo was designed for street, it's quite logical that it would have some glitches for sport. Wouldn't you agree?

I still feel, however, that if you have strong basics (from constant practice), and great conditioning (along with humility and strong will) you will do well in sport and street.

Michael Miller
Fighting is fighting Mike. While we both know what techniques are and how to spar or kickbox I will say that even though they appear very different they really are the same. Just as all human beings are human beings they may communicate with a different language. So in terms of the big picture the differences are small but they appear big if you are only looking at the positions of the body.

But I will say that people who think they can use kenpo techniques verbatum against an excellent ring fighter will have their clock cleaned. You cannot commit like that in the ring. Kenpo techniques if applied in pure form in the ring will end in disaster as they violate ring fundementals..

In fact the best ring fighters I know, and you have been exposed to some of the same people I have will virtually almost never even use a spinning back knuckle much less reversing mace. The only analogy I can make is that the kenpo guy trying to use ideal techniques against a top ring fighter is like a ballet dancer against a twelve gage shotgun. And as far as people that will claim they can do it, well I seriously doubt that they have tried it agaist a real sparring expert/ring fighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H_-gfl0h6g
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Joined: August 23rd, 2010, 6:36 pm

December 7th, 2010, 7:47 am #4

half of everything I say is a lie.

there are no universal truths that can't be pooh poohed right loby?

There's a heavy bag waiting to be massaged Loby, get to it!

Clark
WE ARE BORG..................YOU ARE WEIRD
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Joined: August 9th, 2003, 1:19 pm

December 7th, 2010, 2:17 pm #5

Something Clark said below sparked my interest. Thank you, Clark.

I would like to know how you Kenpoists view sparring. I've noticed that many tend to try the self-defense tech. during sparring. It seems that Clark is on that line of thinking, but I'm not sure. Nothing against Clark, of course, but that is not the way I think.

Sparring and techniques, in my view, are totally different animals. Also, totally different mindsets. Techniques were created in our system as case studies of motion. Yes, you are learning some ways to protect yourself on the street, but to think that you are going to pull them off in sparring (especially against a good fighter) is crazy.

I come from a boxing background. I love boxing. When I spar, I favor my hands and I keep my hands up, elbows in, chin tucked (not too much, of course)and shoulders relaxed. I use a lot of head movement, body movement and foot movement - as well as feints. I also alter the essence of my movement and use a lot of set ups.

I'm not into the Kenpo sparring. Sorry guys. Since I come from a full contact background, I've found that a lot of the ways Kenpo people are taught sparring (B1a and so on) won't work very well against a skilled full-contact fighter. It will work well in regular martial arts tournaments, but in full-contact (like MMA) it wouldn't do well, in my opinion.

Since Kenpo was designed for street, it's quite logical that it would have some glitches for sport. Wouldn't you agree?

I still feel, however, that if you have strong basics (from constant practice), and great conditioning (along with humility and strong will) you will do well in sport and street.

Michael Miller
Hi Mike, well there is a history behind Kenpo and sparring. When Parker introduced Kenpo back in the 1950's Kenpo had no impressive Tournament Fighters, until Steve Sanders came along. Sander's speed and attacks so impressed GM Parker that he took Sanders all around the United States, including Hawaii to prove that Kenpo was indeed a fighting Art. Sander's gave Kenpo it's tournament fighting legitimacy.
In the end GM Parker refused to promote Sanders to Blackbelt. Rumor had it GM Parker didn't want a Blackman running an Ed Parker school. Chuck Sullivan later stepped in and Promoted Steve Sanders to Blackbelt. Sanders went on to produce more Blackbelt Champions than any other Blackbelt Instructor in the History of all Kenpo. His BKF warriors dominated the Long Beach Internationals Sparring divisions for decades. Parker said that there was only one man who could actualize Kenpo both in Street and in tournament, and that man was Steve Sanders muhammad, now Sijo Muhammad.

www.kkfkenpo.110mb.com
www.africansportkarate.110mb.com
kkfkenpo@yahoo.com
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

December 7th, 2010, 4:47 pm #6

Fighting is fighting Mike. While we both know what techniques are and how to spar or kickbox I will say that even though they appear very different they really are the same. Just as all human beings are human beings they may communicate with a different language. So in terms of the big picture the differences are small but they appear big if you are only looking at the positions of the body.

But I will say that people who think they can use kenpo techniques verbatum against an excellent ring fighter will have their clock cleaned. You cannot commit like that in the ring. Kenpo techniques if applied in pure form in the ring will end in disaster as they violate ring fundementals..

In fact the best ring fighters I know, and you have been exposed to some of the same people I have will virtually almost never even use a spinning back knuckle much less reversing mace. The only analogy I can make is that the kenpo guy trying to use ideal techniques against a top ring fighter is like a ballet dancer against a twelve gage shotgun. And as far as people that will claim they can do it, well I seriously doubt that they have tried it agaist a real sparring expert/ring fighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H_-gfl0h6g
Some actually have done well with Kenpo in street situations, waiting and timing are essential, sparring and moving around with no commitment will end up looking as silly as the Ali/Inoki fight...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCWHcuXCLRo



Gary
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Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

December 7th, 2010, 5:05 pm #7

I do need to say that while complete ideal techniques would be inappropriate, there are movements within some of the techniques that can be translated into moves that will work in kickboxing and sparring with gloves on. These keys can fit different locks.
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

December 7th, 2010, 6:01 pm #8

Fighting is fighting Mike. While we both know what techniques are and how to spar or kickbox I will say that even though they appear very different they really are the same. Just as all human beings are human beings they may communicate with a different language. So in terms of the big picture the differences are small but they appear big if you are only looking at the positions of the body.

But I will say that people who think they can use kenpo techniques verbatum against an excellent ring fighter will have their clock cleaned. You cannot commit like that in the ring. Kenpo techniques if applied in pure form in the ring will end in disaster as they violate ring fundementals..

In fact the best ring fighters I know, and you have been exposed to some of the same people I have will virtually almost never even use a spinning back knuckle much less reversing mace. The only analogy I can make is that the kenpo guy trying to use ideal techniques against a top ring fighter is like a ballet dancer against a twelve gage shotgun. And as far as people that will claim they can do it, well I seriously doubt that they have tried it agaist a real sparring expert/ring fighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H_-gfl0h6g
"But I will say that people who think they can use kenpo techniques verbatum against an excellent ring fighter will have their clock cleaned. You cannot commit like that in the ring. Kenpo techniques if applied in pure form in the ring will end in disaster as they violate ring fundementals.."

Exactly my point. We are on the same page here.
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

December 7th, 2010, 6:06 pm #9

Hi Mike, well there is a history behind Kenpo and sparring. When Parker introduced Kenpo back in the 1950's Kenpo had no impressive Tournament Fighters, until Steve Sanders came along. Sander's speed and attacks so impressed GM Parker that he took Sanders all around the United States, including Hawaii to prove that Kenpo was indeed a fighting Art. Sander's gave Kenpo it's tournament fighting legitimacy.
In the end GM Parker refused to promote Sanders to Blackbelt. Rumor had it GM Parker didn't want a Blackman running an Ed Parker school. Chuck Sullivan later stepped in and Promoted Steve Sanders to Blackbelt. Sanders went on to produce more Blackbelt Champions than any other Blackbelt Instructor in the History of all Kenpo. His BKF warriors dominated the Long Beach Internationals Sparring divisions for decades. Parker said that there was only one man who could actualize Kenpo both in Street and in tournament, and that man was Steve Sanders muhammad, now Sijo Muhammad.

www.kkfkenpo.110mb.com
www.africansportkarate.110mb.com
kkfkenpo@yahoo.com
Thanks for your reply. I'm not taking anything away from the great Kenpo fighters such as Mr. Muhammad and many others. There are many great Kenpoists who have had awesome success in tournaments. I'm talking complete full contact - not point oriented stuff.

I am talking about let's say a Kenpo black belt spars against an MMA fighter, a boxer, a kickboxer, and for fun, another Kenpo black belt.

In my view, the only person the Kenpo black belt would do well against (in this sport context) would be the other Kenpo black belt (if he spars the way most Kenpo people spar).

Just my opinion.

"Parker said that there was only one man who could actualize Kenpo both in Street and in tournament, and that man was Steve Sanders muhammad, now Sijo Muhammad."


I've heard he said the same thing about Frank Trejo.



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Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

December 7th, 2010, 6:34 pm #10

First I do not consider MMA ring fighting. And those MMA guys certainly do commit themselves more than a boxer or kickboxer making at some point a technique working more plausible on a limited occasion.
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