Question about Crashing Wings

Question about Crashing Wings

Joined: February 1st, 2005, 2:47 pm

August 16th, 2008, 12:14 am #1

I've been thinking about this technique a bit lately and I'm sort of confused as to it's practicality.

For example, it is a bear hug from behind arms free, however in the real world scenario the opponent is likely to be in motion and either tackling you to the ground or lifting you in order to crush or perform a greco roman style throw.

The technique works fine from a stationary position, which would be great if it were an unsolicited come-on against a woman. However, once motion and momentum are introduced it is a whole different ball game where Spiraling Twig is more appropriate.

I'd be grateful for any feedback on this.
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Joined: February 6th, 2004, 1:18 pm

August 16th, 2008, 12:43 am #2

The first one is that you wouldn't want to wait until the attacker locks the "rear bear hug with arms free" on. If you do, you may find yourself exactly as you described.

However, if you begin your defense as the attacker starts to apply the bear hug, crashing wings may, in fact, work just fine.

The next thought is that perhaps spiralling twig is the what if/even if/formulation/position recognition (whatever your "camp" chooses to call it) for crashing wings.

Third thought would be that we have past tense, present tense, and future tense in languages (conjugation). Perhaps we have that also in our self defense techniques. Therefore, crashing wings may be the past (attack is attempted), spiralling twig is the present tense (attack in progress/locked in)... What would be the future tense???

Then there's the thought that the techniques are examples of things you could do if you found yourself in a certain set of circumstances and we shouldn't get locked in to have to do technique A when in this set of circumstances....

Again, just some thoughts as I sit here after a very long work week...

Salute,
Brad
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

August 16th, 2008, 12:52 am #3

I've been thinking about this technique a bit lately and I'm sort of confused as to it's practicality.

For example, it is a bear hug from behind arms free, however in the real world scenario the opponent is likely to be in motion and either tackling you to the ground or lifting you in order to crush or perform a greco roman style throw.

The technique works fine from a stationary position, which would be great if it were an unsolicited come-on against a woman. However, once motion and momentum are introduced it is a whole different ball game where Spiraling Twig is more appropriate.

I'd be grateful for any feedback on this.
or in line at a theater. Something in the environment dictates a limited range for the attacker. They have to make a decision, they left their weapon at home, they've been stalking you for days and they just caught up to you after losing sight of you for a day or so. Due to your excessive internet chat room exposure, the guy knows you hate it when people come up from behind and grab you.

Wait. You wanted an Ideal Phase discussion about a self defense technique. My bad. Erase, erase. Ignore me at your leisure.

Clark
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Joined: September 23rd, 2007, 2:37 am

August 16th, 2008, 1:09 am #4

I've been thinking about this technique a bit lately and I'm sort of confused as to it's practicality.

For example, it is a bear hug from behind arms free, however in the real world scenario the opponent is likely to be in motion and either tackling you to the ground or lifting you in order to crush or perform a greco roman style throw.

The technique works fine from a stationary position, which would be great if it were an unsolicited come-on against a woman. However, once motion and momentum are introduced it is a whole different ball game where Spiraling Twig is more appropriate.

I'd be grateful for any feedback on this.
...for how you might find yourself in the ideal phase of this technique: Perhaps you are being held in place so a second attacker can work you over, as in Bear and the Ram. Also, suppose you are lifted. You could start firing rear heel kicks to the inside of their knees or shins, in which case, they might maintain their grip but drop you back into position to use Crashing Wings.

Yes? No? Maybe?

Dan Puleo
Last edited by DanPuleo on August 16th, 2008, 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: August 14th, 2004, 8:13 am

August 16th, 2008, 2:53 am #5

I've been thinking about this technique a bit lately and I'm sort of confused as to it's practicality.

For example, it is a bear hug from behind arms free, however in the real world scenario the opponent is likely to be in motion and either tackling you to the ground or lifting you in order to crush or perform a greco roman style throw.

The technique works fine from a stationary position, which would be great if it were an unsolicited come-on against a woman. However, once motion and momentum are introduced it is a whole different ball game where Spiraling Twig is more appropriate.

I'd be grateful for any feedback on this.
Good post, and again a tech that many under the scenario you describe struggle with. Especially if you are of a smaller stature than your opponent, which will likely be the case if the attack was initiated. The reason I say this, is from experience and logic. Nobody smaller than you is going to try to apply this tech realistically, unless like you say he was trained to take you down in such a manner.

I think it is safe to say that the attacker in the ideal phase, is attempting to cancel your height in an aggressively upward direction (even prior to a takedown this is the case only not in a lifting you back to six o'clock fashion) taking the weight of your feet in order to maneuver you.

You may want to try this:

Once the hug is applied and the base disturbed or lifted to the degree that you are unable to step and utilize marriage of gravity in your first move, quickly tuck your chin in bringing your head and shoulders forward, at the same time bring your knees up in the direction of your chest in a tuck (the depth of tuck will be relative to his response), as you tuck rotate your shoulders slightly to the left and raise your hands behind your head. You will find that your combined weight and rotation will bring his mass forward and to his left, taking the weight of his feet destabilizing his base. Immediately plant your left foot and crash your wings.

This should be practice in an explosive manner, as time delay will allow him to naturally re-align his body into a more stable position. You want to eliminate his foot maneuvers.

Practice this and analyze it from a third eye position so that you can monitor the reaction of the attackers body, observing the disruption of his dimensional zones.

Let me know how it works for yea.

Best in Kenpo,
Brye Cooper
UKF

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Joined: August 14th, 2004, 8:13 am

August 16th, 2008, 3:00 am #6

I've been thinking about this technique a bit lately and I'm sort of confused as to it's practicality.

For example, it is a bear hug from behind arms free, however in the real world scenario the opponent is likely to be in motion and either tackling you to the ground or lifting you in order to crush or perform a greco roman style throw.

The technique works fine from a stationary position, which would be great if it were an unsolicited come-on against a woman. However, once motion and momentum are introduced it is a whole different ball game where Spiraling Twig is more appropriate.

I'd be grateful for any feedback on this.
It works for full nelson applications to (because you know when applied its a bugger to get out of, especially if he has you bent over, in which case he has already triggered the response). I complete the tuck into a roll. He will roll with you and you will land on top of him. At which point I like to roll backwards over his face breaking his hold, if he has miraculously managed to maintain it, and out... or what ever coarse of action you decide.

Best In Kenpo,
Brye Cooper
UKF.
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

August 16th, 2008, 3:34 am #7

...for how you might find yourself in the ideal phase of this technique: Perhaps you are being held in place so a second attacker can work you over, as in Bear and the Ram. Also, suppose you are lifted. You could start firing rear heel kicks to the inside of their knees or shins, in which case, they might maintain their grip but drop you back into position to use Crashing Wings.

Yes? No? Maybe?

Dan Puleo
using a bear hug from behind, while picking the guy up is to be holding a dead weight. Kicking to the legs would be more like scrapping I think, you don't have a foot on the ground (assuming) and that means your kick lever (foot on ground)is not working with your knee lever as you kick. Dead weight AS you scrape down the legs might be preferable.

Clark
Ideal Phase is silly, ask Igy.
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Joined: September 23rd, 2007, 2:37 am

August 16th, 2008, 4:14 am #8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

Check out the 2:20 mark. I was thinking along the lines of Scraping Hoof with the legs dangling, so scraping sounds good, too.

Dan Puleo
Last edited by DanPuleo on August 16th, 2008, 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

August 16th, 2008, 6:43 am #9

instead of dead weight, you could lift both feet up towards your head and maybe the guy grabbing you will fall backwards. Let's hope he doesn't swing around and land on top of you, but then why is he picking you up in the first place?

Dead weight using gravity, Compressing weight for toppling. What a strange conversation we are having. LOL

Clark
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Joined: September 23rd, 2007, 2:37 am

August 17th, 2008, 3:56 am #10

I've been thinking about this technique a bit lately and I'm sort of confused as to it's practicality.

For example, it is a bear hug from behind arms free, however in the real world scenario the opponent is likely to be in motion and either tackling you to the ground or lifting you in order to crush or perform a greco roman style throw.

The technique works fine from a stationary position, which would be great if it were an unsolicited come-on against a woman. However, once motion and momentum are introduced it is a whole different ball game where Spiraling Twig is more appropriate.

I'd be grateful for any feedback on this.
...Bear and the Ram or Crashing Wings?

I posted earlier with some scenarios in which Crashing Wings might be practically applied because, well, that is what was asked. I neglected to mention that it probably isn't the first thing I'd attempt against an aggressive bear hug either. Reason being, to my thinking, you'd have to initiate that crash almost instantly for it to work before a lift or takedown occurs, but how reflexive is it when someone grabs you to load your arms (by which I mean thrust them out into space) in order to create the necessary travel for the elbow strikes? Maybe it's just me, but my hands reflexively go to where I'm being grabbed. Additionally, lowering my center when I'm being jostled around is automatic. Reserving the drop until my arms are raised in order to synchronize with the elbows, for me, would require either a presence of mind that I don't yet possess or a delay in reaction time. In the few live instances where I've had to contend with a rear bear hug, I countered it each and every time by intercepting the guy's hands as they came around and preventing the clasp. That might have involved some luck on my part, or else my reflexes served me well. Looking back, if I had been studying Kenpo at the time, I would have been in a great position to use Spiraling Twig or part of Repeated Devastation. If I'd have said "Here comes a hug" and raised my arms to strike instead, I would have allowed what could have been avoided and then had to fall back on trying to break the hold.

With Bear and the Ram, however, we are already in a bear hug, but the more imminent threat is coming from the other guy who's trying to punch us. To contend with him, we raise our hands in defense and our foot to kick. The dispersion of force from the kick to the incoming attacker should momentarily disrupt the rear attacker, and suddenly taking advantage of that "load" to crash down with our mass and weapons on the bear hug seems like a terrific idea. Made me wonder if Bear and the Ram was devised first and Crashing Wings sprung out of it. I'd be curious to know if anyone has the answer.

Thanks,

Dan Puleo
Last edited by DanPuleo on August 17th, 2008, 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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