Proposition: Kenpo SD Techs suck as real-time combat apps.

Proposition: Kenpo SD Techs suck as real-time combat apps.

Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

October 24th, 2008, 5:11 am #1

I propose that the ideal phase and what-ifs are there to teach us to think, move, etc. Training exercises, not intended to be executed as taught. Evidence? Lack of brevity that would solve problems better, with fewer moves.

Student asked me while working Thrusting Salye, "What would YOU do?" I answered; knee-check off the kick while sliding forward to jam it, while also executing a finger jab to the eye. Fight over. Approx a week ago, same student jocularly attempted to surprise me with a kick; I shin checked it, and they went down too fast for me to add a hand attack. Goose-egg, and all.

Consider cross wrist grab: Crossing Talon? Nah. Front thrusting snap kick to their nearest knee, land forward with MOG into a heavy overhand punch with the free hand. Who cares about extricatiig it? We no right where it is and exactly what it's up to. So let them hold my wrist, while I dismantle their joints and face with my free appendages.

5 Swords, as defense against a right handed straight or roundhouse attack fomr the front. Greater brevity? Check off the attack, and slide in a side thrustig stomp kick into their lead knee. Leave. Replace Thundering Hammers with Darting Leaves; shorter, maimingly injurious (busted knee + fingers buried up to hand in eye socket).

Ideal Phase training -- trying to get 5 swords or TH off on a punch, etc. -- continues the insistence that that is what the techniques are for. Grafting and bridging further the assumption that, for kenpo to be kenpo, we gotta be always throwing schmancy combo's, and that those must be informed by the clasical patterning conditioned into our noodles by ovrtraining ideal phase antics.

Whatever happened to spontaneous phase, rearrangement, etc.? Since when can a basic in kenpo mean only one thing, and be consigned to failure if applied outside fixed parameters? Anybody here recall Mr. P. saying it must always-only-ever be done this way, and no other way? Or does anybody recall him discussing the liberating study of motion, to be delivered on the fly, in accordance to the dictations of multiple variables (i.e., environment, conditioning, etc.)?

Now, I have my own views, and they vascillate between the need for a workable, insistent ideal phase, but only so the student really nails what it means to make the basics inn the techniques work, while learning to navigate relationship within interactions. Once "out there", I expect them to free-associate responses to ad hoc attacks. But before I get too much into my views...I'm throwing this out there to stir the pot. May not be able to check in on it for several days, but at least it's kenpo discussion.

Regards,

Dave
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Joined: February 22nd, 2005, 5:53 am

October 24th, 2008, 6:28 am #2

Greetings.

My students, and I find it funny that after the first one or 2 movements, the person on the receiving end wants no more and folds up and/or falls.

Only we are tough enough to withstand a nice long combination and still stand...

I think the extensions were to take care of other Kenpo Practitioners that can survive a technique.

I agree that the Ideal phase techniques are there in part to teach points of reference so that you have readily practiced choices and execute immediately once recognized. The Technique Sequence does have importance, though, which I will not get into now.
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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:18 pm

October 24th, 2008, 11:09 am #3

I propose that the ideal phase and what-ifs are there to teach us to think, move, etc. Training exercises, not intended to be executed as taught. Evidence? Lack of brevity that would solve problems better, with fewer moves.

Student asked me while working Thrusting Salye, "What would YOU do?" I answered; knee-check off the kick while sliding forward to jam it, while also executing a finger jab to the eye. Fight over. Approx a week ago, same student jocularly attempted to surprise me with a kick; I shin checked it, and they went down too fast for me to add a hand attack. Goose-egg, and all.

Consider cross wrist grab: Crossing Talon? Nah. Front thrusting snap kick to their nearest knee, land forward with MOG into a heavy overhand punch with the free hand. Who cares about extricatiig it? We no right where it is and exactly what it's up to. So let them hold my wrist, while I dismantle their joints and face with my free appendages.

5 Swords, as defense against a right handed straight or roundhouse attack fomr the front. Greater brevity? Check off the attack, and slide in a side thrustig stomp kick into their lead knee. Leave. Replace Thundering Hammers with Darting Leaves; shorter, maimingly injurious (busted knee + fingers buried up to hand in eye socket).

Ideal Phase training -- trying to get 5 swords or TH off on a punch, etc. -- continues the insistence that that is what the techniques are for. Grafting and bridging further the assumption that, for kenpo to be kenpo, we gotta be always throwing schmancy combo's, and that those must be informed by the clasical patterning conditioned into our noodles by ovrtraining ideal phase antics.

Whatever happened to spontaneous phase, rearrangement, etc.? Since when can a basic in kenpo mean only one thing, and be consigned to failure if applied outside fixed parameters? Anybody here recall Mr. P. saying it must always-only-ever be done this way, and no other way? Or does anybody recall him discussing the liberating study of motion, to be delivered on the fly, in accordance to the dictations of multiple variables (i.e., environment, conditioning, etc.)?

Now, I have my own views, and they vascillate between the need for a workable, insistent ideal phase, but only so the student really nails what it means to make the basics inn the techniques work, while learning to navigate relationship within interactions. Once "out there", I expect them to free-associate responses to ad hoc attacks. But before I get too much into my views...I'm throwing this out there to stir the pot. May not be able to check in on it for several days, but at least it's kenpo discussion.

Regards,

Dave
Von Moltke said, "No plan survives contact with the enemy." He didn't say, "don't plan." I teach my students that the SD techs are a great start, expect the first two strikes of any technique to either render the rest of the technique unneccessary or that they will have to modify. However, I do believe that some techs, especially techs for grabs, chokes and holds will work just fine, beginning to end - have seen it work.

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

October 24th, 2008, 6:53 pm #4

I propose that the ideal phase and what-ifs are there to teach us to think, move, etc. Training exercises, not intended to be executed as taught. Evidence? Lack of brevity that would solve problems better, with fewer moves.

Student asked me while working Thrusting Salye, "What would YOU do?" I answered; knee-check off the kick while sliding forward to jam it, while also executing a finger jab to the eye. Fight over. Approx a week ago, same student jocularly attempted to surprise me with a kick; I shin checked it, and they went down too fast for me to add a hand attack. Goose-egg, and all.

Consider cross wrist grab: Crossing Talon? Nah. Front thrusting snap kick to their nearest knee, land forward with MOG into a heavy overhand punch with the free hand. Who cares about extricatiig it? We no right where it is and exactly what it's up to. So let them hold my wrist, while I dismantle their joints and face with my free appendages.

5 Swords, as defense against a right handed straight or roundhouse attack fomr the front. Greater brevity? Check off the attack, and slide in a side thrustig stomp kick into their lead knee. Leave. Replace Thundering Hammers with Darting Leaves; shorter, maimingly injurious (busted knee + fingers buried up to hand in eye socket).

Ideal Phase training -- trying to get 5 swords or TH off on a punch, etc. -- continues the insistence that that is what the techniques are for. Grafting and bridging further the assumption that, for kenpo to be kenpo, we gotta be always throwing schmancy combo's, and that those must be informed by the clasical patterning conditioned into our noodles by ovrtraining ideal phase antics.

Whatever happened to spontaneous phase, rearrangement, etc.? Since when can a basic in kenpo mean only one thing, and be consigned to failure if applied outside fixed parameters? Anybody here recall Mr. P. saying it must always-only-ever be done this way, and no other way? Or does anybody recall him discussing the liberating study of motion, to be delivered on the fly, in accordance to the dictations of multiple variables (i.e., environment, conditioning, etc.)?

Now, I have my own views, and they vascillate between the need for a workable, insistent ideal phase, but only so the student really nails what it means to make the basics inn the techniques work, while learning to navigate relationship within interactions. Once "out there", I expect them to free-associate responses to ad hoc attacks. But before I get too much into my views...I'm throwing this out there to stir the pot. May not be able to check in on it for several days, but at least it's kenpo discussion.

Regards,

Dave
"Everybody's got a plan until I hit them" or something to that effect.

Get on Dave, the ride is bumpy as hell.

Can't wait for Mike's responses.

Clark
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Joined: June 17th, 2006, 1:33 am

October 24th, 2008, 7:08 pm #5

I propose that the ideal phase and what-ifs are there to teach us to think, move, etc. Training exercises, not intended to be executed as taught. Evidence? Lack of brevity that would solve problems better, with fewer moves.

Student asked me while working Thrusting Salye, "What would YOU do?" I answered; knee-check off the kick while sliding forward to jam it, while also executing a finger jab to the eye. Fight over. Approx a week ago, same student jocularly attempted to surprise me with a kick; I shin checked it, and they went down too fast for me to add a hand attack. Goose-egg, and all.

Consider cross wrist grab: Crossing Talon? Nah. Front thrusting snap kick to their nearest knee, land forward with MOG into a heavy overhand punch with the free hand. Who cares about extricatiig it? We no right where it is and exactly what it's up to. So let them hold my wrist, while I dismantle their joints and face with my free appendages.

5 Swords, as defense against a right handed straight or roundhouse attack fomr the front. Greater brevity? Check off the attack, and slide in a side thrustig stomp kick into their lead knee. Leave. Replace Thundering Hammers with Darting Leaves; shorter, maimingly injurious (busted knee + fingers buried up to hand in eye socket).

Ideal Phase training -- trying to get 5 swords or TH off on a punch, etc. -- continues the insistence that that is what the techniques are for. Grafting and bridging further the assumption that, for kenpo to be kenpo, we gotta be always throwing schmancy combo's, and that those must be informed by the clasical patterning conditioned into our noodles by ovrtraining ideal phase antics.

Whatever happened to spontaneous phase, rearrangement, etc.? Since when can a basic in kenpo mean only one thing, and be consigned to failure if applied outside fixed parameters? Anybody here recall Mr. P. saying it must always-only-ever be done this way, and no other way? Or does anybody recall him discussing the liberating study of motion, to be delivered on the fly, in accordance to the dictations of multiple variables (i.e., environment, conditioning, etc.)?

Now, I have my own views, and they vascillate between the need for a workable, insistent ideal phase, but only so the student really nails what it means to make the basics inn the techniques work, while learning to navigate relationship within interactions. Once "out there", I expect them to free-associate responses to ad hoc attacks. But before I get too much into my views...I'm throwing this out there to stir the pot. May not be able to check in on it for several days, but at least it's kenpo discussion.

Regards,

Dave
Well duh!

You want to stir the pot try saying forms are just exercise....LOL!

But I'll play a little....

Where did you learn the solutions to those problems you mentioned....

In my best church lady voice:

Could it be...from the techniques?!?!

CT

but that's just my opinion I could be wrong.
Dennis Miller
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Joined: March 12th, 2007, 10:31 pm

October 24th, 2008, 8:10 pm #6

I propose that the ideal phase and what-ifs are there to teach us to think, move, etc. Training exercises, not intended to be executed as taught. Evidence? Lack of brevity that would solve problems better, with fewer moves.

Student asked me while working Thrusting Salye, "What would YOU do?" I answered; knee-check off the kick while sliding forward to jam it, while also executing a finger jab to the eye. Fight over. Approx a week ago, same student jocularly attempted to surprise me with a kick; I shin checked it, and they went down too fast for me to add a hand attack. Goose-egg, and all.

Consider cross wrist grab: Crossing Talon? Nah. Front thrusting snap kick to their nearest knee, land forward with MOG into a heavy overhand punch with the free hand. Who cares about extricatiig it? We no right where it is and exactly what it's up to. So let them hold my wrist, while I dismantle their joints and face with my free appendages.

5 Swords, as defense against a right handed straight or roundhouse attack fomr the front. Greater brevity? Check off the attack, and slide in a side thrustig stomp kick into their lead knee. Leave. Replace Thundering Hammers with Darting Leaves; shorter, maimingly injurious (busted knee + fingers buried up to hand in eye socket).

Ideal Phase training -- trying to get 5 swords or TH off on a punch, etc. -- continues the insistence that that is what the techniques are for. Grafting and bridging further the assumption that, for kenpo to be kenpo, we gotta be always throwing schmancy combo's, and that those must be informed by the clasical patterning conditioned into our noodles by ovrtraining ideal phase antics.

Whatever happened to spontaneous phase, rearrangement, etc.? Since when can a basic in kenpo mean only one thing, and be consigned to failure if applied outside fixed parameters? Anybody here recall Mr. P. saying it must always-only-ever be done this way, and no other way? Or does anybody recall him discussing the liberating study of motion, to be delivered on the fly, in accordance to the dictations of multiple variables (i.e., environment, conditioning, etc.)?

Now, I have my own views, and they vascillate between the need for a workable, insistent ideal phase, but only so the student really nails what it means to make the basics inn the techniques work, while learning to navigate relationship within interactions. Once "out there", I expect them to free-associate responses to ad hoc attacks. But before I get too much into my views...I'm throwing this out there to stir the pot. May not be able to check in on it for several days, but at least it's kenpo discussion.

Regards,

Dave
I think in the past on this forum this topic has been discussed. I had a revelation about this one day. First though let me say that I am not a blackbelt. I am a purple belt. I have been in the system, actively training two to three hours two nights a week for just about 3 years. There are only 7 practitioners in our group. Our instructor is a 5th black and our highest ranking practitioner is a 3rd black. We joke that we have two instructors. But it is really no joke. So I'm no big knowitall but then again I am exposed to much good training and solid concepts and ideas; and I am effective in my execution of the material that I do have.

I just wanted to give you all some background on my level of training and rank before I spouted my mouth off!

My revelation was brought on by realizing one day that the 'techniques' are really (as is well established) sophisticated combinations of Kenpo Basics. The basics recur throughout the system in different contexts and in different techniques. And the revelation was that we are not supposed to be learning techniques. We are ingraining Kenpo Basics by repeating them constantly and in these different contexts. Further, that in a stressful situation one may only need one of these basics to achieve personal safety. However you may need more. The catalysts for the individual basics are what we are learning... no, programming. Not the complete technique itsself. The 'technique' is a tool for accomplishing this abstract muscle memory; and to teach us some flowwwww.

So the techniques really do not suck when viewed from this perspective in my humble opinion.

They may not be appropriate or even possible in a high stress situation though (unless you are making a movie!)

And yes some techs for locks and holds and such could be performed in their entirety I suppose. Its all about that first action brought on by an enemy's particular physical attack and their response to your action.

Salute and Good Discussion.

Justin





Justin Dismore
Last edited by Dismore on October 24th, 2008, 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:18 pm

October 24th, 2008, 9:07 pm #7

"Everybody's got a plan until I hit them" or something to that effect.

Get on Dave, the ride is bumpy as hell.

Can't wait for Mike's responses.

Clark
"Everyone has a plan until someone kicks you in the face." Mirko Crocop.

I'm sure I misspelled his name but I got the quote right.

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

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Joined: August 14th, 2004, 8:13 am

October 26th, 2008, 4:53 am #8

I propose that the ideal phase and what-ifs are there to teach us to think, move, etc. Training exercises, not intended to be executed as taught. Evidence? Lack of brevity that would solve problems better, with fewer moves.

Student asked me while working Thrusting Salye, "What would YOU do?" I answered; knee-check off the kick while sliding forward to jam it, while also executing a finger jab to the eye. Fight over. Approx a week ago, same student jocularly attempted to surprise me with a kick; I shin checked it, and they went down too fast for me to add a hand attack. Goose-egg, and all.

Consider cross wrist grab: Crossing Talon? Nah. Front thrusting snap kick to their nearest knee, land forward with MOG into a heavy overhand punch with the free hand. Who cares about extricatiig it? We no right where it is and exactly what it's up to. So let them hold my wrist, while I dismantle their joints and face with my free appendages.

5 Swords, as defense against a right handed straight or roundhouse attack fomr the front. Greater brevity? Check off the attack, and slide in a side thrustig stomp kick into their lead knee. Leave. Replace Thundering Hammers with Darting Leaves; shorter, maimingly injurious (busted knee + fingers buried up to hand in eye socket).

Ideal Phase training -- trying to get 5 swords or TH off on a punch, etc. -- continues the insistence that that is what the techniques are for. Grafting and bridging further the assumption that, for kenpo to be kenpo, we gotta be always throwing schmancy combo's, and that those must be informed by the clasical patterning conditioned into our noodles by ovrtraining ideal phase antics.

Whatever happened to spontaneous phase, rearrangement, etc.? Since when can a basic in kenpo mean only one thing, and be consigned to failure if applied outside fixed parameters? Anybody here recall Mr. P. saying it must always-only-ever be done this way, and no other way? Or does anybody recall him discussing the liberating study of motion, to be delivered on the fly, in accordance to the dictations of multiple variables (i.e., environment, conditioning, etc.)?

Now, I have my own views, and they vascillate between the need for a workable, insistent ideal phase, but only so the student really nails what it means to make the basics inn the techniques work, while learning to navigate relationship within interactions. Once "out there", I expect them to free-associate responses to ad hoc attacks. But before I get too much into my views...I'm throwing this out there to stir the pot. May not be able to check in on it for several days, but at least it's kenpo discussion.

Regards,

Dave
What belt level are you at now?

Best in Kenpo.
Brye Cooper
UKF
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Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

October 28th, 2008, 2:39 pm #9

Same as 18 years ago. What does that have to do with your position on the idea? Does your answer change, depending on the rank of your audience?
Last edited by DrDaveDC on October 28th, 2008, 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 14th, 2005, 5:16 am

October 28th, 2008, 11:35 pm #10

Dave, me too.
Been the same for a long time...Some consider me more than I do, but hey, all of us have to live with it...

"Master" rolls off the tongue pretty nice though

Gary
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