Kenpo & Groundfighting

Kenpo & Groundfighting

Joined: March 27th, 2008, 4:36 am

March 27th, 2008, 4:43 am #1

I am new to Kenpo. Did Kenpo always not include groundfighting or does this vary by organization or teacher?
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Joined: October 11th, 2004, 2:43 am

March 27th, 2008, 8:21 am #2

Speakman's kenpo 5.0
Bart Vales Shootfighting
Otherwise ur not going to get much groundfighting in kenpo. There are applications once at a black belt level that can be applied, but as a new student I would recommend cross training in bjj, it is the best for grappling.

But to answer your question, generally it varies from organization and teacher.
Last edited by KenpoKidZ on March 27th, 2008, 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

March 27th, 2008, 3:03 pm #3

I am new to Kenpo. Did Kenpo always not include groundfighting or does this vary by organization or teacher?
of ground fighting. Ed Parker's American Kenpo has Jiu-Jitsu locks, judo, taekwondo, boxing, etc. within the art. Keep in mind that Mr. Parker was a black belt in Judo. As the system was being constantly revised by Mr. Parker he knew that we may be faced with defending against someone who had skill in another martial art; therefore, some of our techniques were based on this philosophy. You were to learn not only what to do, but also, what not to do.

I know you said you are new to Kenpo, but if you were to look at our techniques you will find how to defend against certain Jiu-Jitsu locks and such (twisted twig and locked wing to name a couple). You also learn how to utilize the locks. We must know both sides of the coin. Mr. Parker believed in keeping your mind open and cross-training was primarily used to get to understand the ins and outs of other systems so that you could learn how to counter them.

Our philosophy on the ground is if you go there, get up. Don't stay down there looking for an arm bar. You don't know if the attacker is going to have buddies stomp your face in while you are wrestling him.

Kenpo and the ground has always been a big controversy. I believe that you can use your Kenpo movements on the ground. It is just a different plane. I have practiced this way and feel that I can make them work with the formulation equation and tailoring. I have also taken about two years of informal Jiu-Jitsu training and know some of what they do and believe.

If my assumption is correct, ground fighting to you probably involves how Jiu-Jitsu practitioners view it. If that's the case, we don't look at it that way in Kenpo training. We try to avoid the ground and if we go there we try to get up. Keep in mind that I am solely talking about street training, which in my opinion, is the most important aspect of Kenpo. If you were to fight in MMA you MUST know how to fight on the ground and Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling are your best bets.

I am into striking although I wrestled for twelve years. When it comes to this MMA fad, I prefer ground and pound over anything--although I am not an MMA fighter or practitioner. I am not a big sports fan. I am into reality. Nothing against any martial artists who focus on the sport arena.

So does Kenpo have ground fighting? In my opinion from what I know, yes it does. Just from a different viewpoint than other systems.

Yours,

Michael Miller, CKF
Last edited by millhouse23 on March 27th, 2008, 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: June 1st, 2005, 5:34 am

March 27th, 2008, 3:12 pm #4

I am new to Kenpo. Did Kenpo always not include groundfighting or does this vary by organization or teacher?
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and American Kenpo go to together very well.

American Kenpo in and of itself avoids the ground, teaches techniques against setups for the takedown, and if you practice them correctly, diligently, and against trained takedown specialists you can develop an ability to not be taken down.

That being said, what if? If you get taken down it is great to have Jiu Jitsu training, or ground training in general to understand whats happening. You really do not even need to have a Purple, Brown or Black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to be able to be proficient in the art. After training BJJ for a couple years you will understand and have a feel for most things that will happen on the ground and have a great ability to handle the what ifs, especially when you combine what you learned with your Kenpo knowledge.

I have heard plenty of Kenpo guys who have never trained on the ground spout on and on about how it is not necessary.

However I have never head even one Kenpo guy who has also trained on the ground say that they would do anything different, and recommend people not train in grappling.
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Joined: March 11th, 2007, 5:35 pm

March 27th, 2008, 4:04 pm #5

I am new to Kenpo. Did Kenpo always not include groundfighting or does this vary by organization or teacher?
During the early 90's it came to everyones attention that grappling in all its froms is a very necessary and important part of any self defense system. Things always have a way of coming full circle. Schools that only teach stand up are not really teaching the full version of the art.

The rule is in order to stay on your feet you must know how to get up. In order to get up you must have defenses and escapes for take downs, mounts, and other ground controll manuevers. This is what allows you to avoid the ground.

The written material is only a small part of the art. Many people have archived their material on video and do not blast it all over the net. It is not that it is a secret, it is that it belongs to the loyal students of that association or group.

My question to you is why even bother with a version of Kenpo that is incomplete? If your stiking is bad so is your grappling and if you grappling is bad so is your striking. Grappling can be defined as anti ground manuevers, that doesnt mean you don't have to train it and drill anti ground manuevers. It is understanding leverage and developing a feel for what the other persons body is doing to control yours.

The commercial version is something to stay away from. Many of these schools teach a sanitized version of the art that is wrapped up in a neat little bow with fees attached for everything. In order to fight you must fight- there must be drills that are designed to improve your ability and not just hit the floor and kickbox. Drill, sweat, and bleed.
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Joined: May 7th, 2005, 4:07 pm

March 27th, 2008, 5:26 pm #6

I am new to Kenpo. Did Kenpo always not include groundfighting or does this vary by organization or teacher?
"I am new to Kenpo."

Welcome....

"Did Kenpo always not include groundfighting?"

Past Tense. No, Kenpo did not always not include groundfighting.

"does this vary by organization or teacher?"

Present Tense. Yes, today it varies greatly by organization and teacher.

James Hawkins III, SI
Hawkins Kenpo Ju Jitsu
Baltimore, MD
http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kenpojujitsu3
http://www.myspace.com/kenpojames
410-948-1440
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Joined: January 6th, 2008, 6:21 pm

March 27th, 2008, 8:28 pm #7

of ground fighting. Ed Parker's American Kenpo has Jiu-Jitsu locks, judo, taekwondo, boxing, etc. within the art. Keep in mind that Mr. Parker was a black belt in Judo. As the system was being constantly revised by Mr. Parker he knew that we may be faced with defending against someone who had skill in another martial art; therefore, some of our techniques were based on this philosophy. You were to learn not only what to do, but also, what not to do.

I know you said you are new to Kenpo, but if you were to look at our techniques you will find how to defend against certain Jiu-Jitsu locks and such (twisted twig and locked wing to name a couple). You also learn how to utilize the locks. We must know both sides of the coin. Mr. Parker believed in keeping your mind open and cross-training was primarily used to get to understand the ins and outs of other systems so that you could learn how to counter them.

Our philosophy on the ground is if you go there, get up. Don't stay down there looking for an arm bar. You don't know if the attacker is going to have buddies stomp your face in while you are wrestling him.

Kenpo and the ground has always been a big controversy. I believe that you can use your Kenpo movements on the ground. It is just a different plane. I have practiced this way and feel that I can make them work with the formulation equation and tailoring. I have also taken about two years of informal Jiu-Jitsu training and know some of what they do and believe.

If my assumption is correct, ground fighting to you probably involves how Jiu-Jitsu practitioners view it. If that's the case, we don't look at it that way in Kenpo training. We try to avoid the ground and if we go there we try to get up. Keep in mind that I am solely talking about street training, which in my opinion, is the most important aspect of Kenpo. If you were to fight in MMA you MUST know how to fight on the ground and Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling are your best bets.

I am into striking although I wrestled for twelve years. When it comes to this MMA fad, I prefer ground and pound over anything--although I am not an MMA fighter or practitioner. I am not a big sports fan. I am into reality. Nothing against any martial artists who focus on the sport arena.

So does Kenpo have ground fighting? In my opinion from what I know, yes it does. Just from a different viewpoint than other systems.

Yours,

Michael Miller, CKF
well said.
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Joined: August 9th, 2003, 1:19 pm

March 31st, 2008, 5:59 pm #8

I am new to Kenpo. Did Kenpo always not include groundfighting or does this vary by organization or teacher?
Kenpo is not complete without gf! Just because someone 'W.CHOW'? didn't want to get his gi dirty, doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to the obvious flaw in our beloved Kenpo. I will say it, hell, most of the regulas call me crazy anyway,so: (Kenpo does have an answer for an opponent who strikes once and then quickly steps back out of range) Kenpo needs gf & jj to be complete.

www.groups.yahoo.com/group/kkfmama for all things Kenpo in East Africa
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Joined: December 13th, 2007, 5:47 am

March 31st, 2008, 6:40 pm #9

I've been in dozens street fights. (One of the hazards of being the only white kid in high school) Not once did it end up on the ground. More then half of those fights my assailant had friends around. The last place you want to be is on the ground. Let's see how long Royce Cracie hangs around after you jam your finger into his eye.

Mark
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Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

March 31st, 2008, 7:01 pm #10

That Royce doesn't also know how to jam a finger into your eye? One of the best, cleanest, fastest spinning back crescent kicks I have ever seen? Rorion Gracie.

Relson Gracie -- known for this exact sort of thing in his younger, rowdier days.

Rickson Gracie: Overheard (by me) discussing the terms for a challenge match, in which the guy asks if gouges to the eye are permissable. "Provided I can shove my finger in your eye after I've put you to sleep."

Do you honestly believe that after 75 years of challenge matches in gang-style conflicts in the streets and alleys of some of Brazils toughest neighborhoods, that these issues would be new to them?

You need to get out more; maybe mix it up with a couple of grapplers...not sporterized MMA ring guys, but guys who use this to throw Hells Angels out of bars and take out gang rats on police shifts.

D.
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