I was upset when I first read this....

I was upset when I first read this....

Joined: May 30th, 2007, 11:44 pm

May 12th, 2009, 7:33 pm #1

http://www.minnesotaselfdefense.com/index.php?id=6

But after I read what he had to say I realized something.

This guy has no clue what Kenpo is really about.

My guess is that he took some lessons somewhere, got to maybe orange, purple belt at best. And he's one of those guys thst only wants to know the "how" not the "why" of kenpo.

David Strobel
Minnesota Kenpo Karate Studio
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

May 12th, 2009, 9:20 pm #2

to find the name of the HEAD INSTRUCTOR!!!!!!!!

Still not interested in learning kenpo from someone who rejects it and can't do it without blending stuff in.

I guess I'm just close minded and afraid of ground fighting. Ah well.

Clark
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Joined: February 1st, 2005, 2:47 pm

May 12th, 2009, 10:48 pm #3

http://www.minnesotaselfdefense.com/index.php?id=6

But after I read what he had to say I realized something.

This guy has no clue what Kenpo is really about.

My guess is that he took some lessons somewhere, got to maybe orange, purple belt at best. And he's one of those guys thst only wants to know the "how" not the "why" of kenpo.

David Strobel
Minnesota Kenpo Karate Studio
He's only really looking at Kenpo in the Octagon, and even then not realising that Kenpo is a 'street' art and meant for the ring.

Not sayin there aren't some good Kenpo ringmen out there, just that SGM meant this thing we do to work on the street.

It saddens me when I see people like this compare arts in a sports setting, no matter how tough and brutal the sport is, it's still a sport, has rules, a referee and no buddies to stomp your head if you're not paying attention while tangled up on the ground.

His lack of understanding of our beautiful system is evident when he says things like "99% of Kenpo, the way most schools teach it, is useless". I wonder has he been to most schools? He hasn't been to mine anyway. And 99% is useless? Totally misunderstands the principles and concepts behind what we do.

So Zane and Hackney can't beat the big guys? So What? I bet if they met their opponents in the car park afterwards they'd be more than able to display their Kenpo skills. Not that I condone such things of course. Very unsporting behaviour.
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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:18 pm

May 12th, 2009, 10:56 pm #4

http://www.minnesotaselfdefense.com/index.php?id=6

But after I read what he had to say I realized something.

This guy has no clue what Kenpo is really about.

My guess is that he took some lessons somewhere, got to maybe orange, purple belt at best. And he's one of those guys thst only wants to know the "how" not the "why" of kenpo.

David Strobel
Minnesota Kenpo Karate Studio
His little article on women's self defense was worthless too. But the thing that really got me was his top 10 self defense tips. Number 1? Here it is:

1. If grabbed, always go for the eyes first. Groin attacks with biting are a close second. Rip, tear, squeeze and yell. If you are close enough to use it, do it!


I don't think so.

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

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Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

May 13th, 2009, 12:28 am #5

http://www.minnesotaselfdefense.com/index.php?id=6

But after I read what he had to say I realized something.

This guy has no clue what Kenpo is really about.

My guess is that he took some lessons somewhere, got to maybe orange, purple belt at best. And he's one of those guys thst only wants to know the "how" not the "why" of kenpo.

David Strobel
Minnesota Kenpo Karate Studio
We got a large group of MMA guys here deployed and
they are often training together in the gym area.
When they saw me doing Kenpo they had the smirks
and asked me if I wanted to spar. I agreed & I had
a great time. After it was over they were
more open minded to my Kenpo ideas.

Now they ask me almost every time I go in if I will have a match with one of them and they always stand around watching intently. I have yet to turn any
of the matches down I love working my kenpo against
other arts.

The only thing that gets me is they understand how
Kenpo is more for self-defense situations and how what
they are doing is mostly for sport fights but they
still train only for sports fighting.

Its just odd to me.
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Joined: February 9th, 2006, 6:27 pm

May 13th, 2009, 2:18 am #6

http://www.minnesotaselfdefense.com/index.php?id=6

But after I read what he had to say I realized something.

This guy has no clue what Kenpo is really about.

My guess is that he took some lessons somewhere, got to maybe orange, purple belt at best. And he's one of those guys thst only wants to know the "how" not the "why" of kenpo.

David Strobel
Minnesota Kenpo Karate Studio
...A lot of parents don't want their kids to get hurt in a Karate school, and due to our society's propensity to sue, many schools don't make it too real because it tends to scare a lot of people away, and you can't run a successful business because you have the " toughest ten guys in town " I feel that you've got to take people through a process, in which you start out as safe as you can and build toward the intense, hard-hitting practice that should be required of all Black Belt students. You simply can't teach a lot of people to swim by throwing them in the water. Some people have to overcome a lot ( fear of getting hit, hitting someone, confidence and courage to do it, among other things ) to get to that point, and unfortunately there are lots of schools out there that teach safety to such an extreme they don't allow any contact. This mma stuff has value for the people who can handle a baptism by fire, and they like to laugh at the silly karate guys who punch the air, but I'll put my money on a good Kenpo guy any day. When I play randori with my Judo friends their eyes get a little wide when I incorporate some good old-fashioned Kenpo combinations into our routines. I do it respectfully and we share and respect each others knowledge, but when it comes to self defense, they know the score. I found this article on judinfo.com. It takes a pretty objective view about sport fighting vs. karate training. Pretty insightful, and definitely worth a read for both parties involved. - JP 5th Black Wedlake/ White lineage

Many people think of Judo and Taekwondo as sports because they are included along with other major sports in Olympic competition. Boxing, wrestling, Judo, taekwondo, and kickboxing are examples of martial sports. I often hear martial artists who use the term "sport" as if referring to a game with no usefulness. The implication is that a sport is only for "play" and cannot be effective for self defense, fighting or combat. Many martial artists think that the distinction between sport and martial art is that martial artists train for real life.

Actually the distinction is more complex and rather surprising. In discussing it I will make generalizations that may not apply to the way you train in your sport or martial art. However I hope to give you a new way to look at the potential value of sports principles for martial arts training.

One of the primary differences between martial sports and arts is in the value of the training methods. Because of their alleged danger or lethality, many martial arts engage in artificial and even counter-productive training which involves "pulling" techniques, modifying the point of contact, and adding in a precautionary element of movement that, rather than training the body, can inhibit its natural action and the ultimate conclusion of a technique. Slow, careful, non-contact training is not an effective approach to prepare for actual fighting situations that require the opposite reactions. Typifying this approach is a student who falsely equates the ability to break boards with the ability to punch a person in the face. As another example, I have never seen realistic training in throat strikes or eye gouges in any martial arts class, even though these are often recommended for self defense. The teaching generally done for these techniques helps students to understand what to do, but does not provide effective results for fast, reflexive and accurate application of these techniques against an unwilling opponent in real life combat.

Sport, by removing some of the potential dangers, achieves the opposite. That is, sport more typically produces natural, fast, reflexive movement with full power application, achieving a result against a struggling opponent who is also utilizing full power while engaging in strategic and tactical resistance using all of his or her resources and training. Techniques that don't work are soon abandoned, and successful skills are honed against different attackers under a variety of conditions. Maintaining control in various combat situations, both in attack and defense, is difficult when faced with the unpredictable nature of an opponent's efforts, but facing these situations in contest prepares you for similar situations. Each opponent in competition is operating at the limit of physical and psychological skill. By pushing that limit contestants are continually realizing and expanding their potential.

Sometimes the "combat" arts substitute intellectual perception, a highly subjective and deceptive frame of reference, for genuine training of the body and mind. Some martial arts don't train effectively for self defense and combat because they can't train for combat without severe risk to training partners. Many martial arts have instead adopted highly stylized, ritualistic, and even dysfunctional training methods. Ironically, martial sports may provide the superior training in effective combat techniques because martial arts can't be practiced in a real life way without injury.

In martial sports, one purpose of competition is to take the place of the older shinken shobu (life-and-death fights) in developing technique, knowledge, and character. You never see yourself so clearly as when you face your own death. Competition can provide a safe, controlled glimpse at this kind of defeat. Fighting spirit can be developed only through fighting. Surely it is not the same as the battlefield, but it serves a similar purpose, and it is closer to a combat situation than any other form of training.

Of course this can go wrong. Winning and losing can become too important and start to pervert the training process. The ultimate goal should not be the winning of medals. Using sport competition as a metaphor for real fighting can be quite different from playing it as a game. Matches, along with free practice and sparring, are simply different methods for training the mind and body to deal with the adversity of fighting situations.

Just as non-competitive martial arts training may not provide the benefits of competition, training for sport competition may not provide the full scope of self defense training. Martial sports often include non-competitive components. For example, competition is only a part of the Judo curriculum, and Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, was very concerned about preserving those self defense techniques that could not be used with full force in competition. However, Judo remains a remarkably effective self defense training, even after the development of other modern "combat" methods, and even when Judo is practiced today largely as a sport. Jigoro Kano applied modern sport training methodology to the traditional koryu jujutsu and found that it produced a better combat art, which has proven itself again and again over the last 120 years.

Although martial arts and sports both have loftier goals, it is still a fact that many people train in martial arts primarily for self-defense. For those who have never used sport training methods, or those who have never explored traditional bujutsu training, it is easy to discount the effectiveness of the other. As martial artists we should continually seek opportunities to challenge ourselves by examining the weaknesses in our training and keeping our minds open to other methods. I encourage you to discover for yourself how "playing" with a partner in sparring or free practice, or competing against an opponent in contest, can be an effective method of training for self defense.
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

May 13th, 2009, 3:18 am #7

for some students we need to be grandfatherly, for others fatherly, others like younger sister/brothers and some like little sisters/brothers.

I know some pretty tough 13 year olds that hang with the BB's during technique and sparring but then there are some 16 year olds that can't hang for nuthin'.

Clark
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Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

May 13th, 2009, 8:05 am #8

http://www.minnesotaselfdefense.com/index.php?id=6

But after I read what he had to say I realized something.

This guy has no clue what Kenpo is really about.

My guess is that he took some lessons somewhere, got to maybe orange, purple belt at best. And he's one of those guys thst only wants to know the "how" not the "why" of kenpo.

David Strobel
Minnesota Kenpo Karate Studio
He raises some valid points and some others I do not so much agree with. He in general makes more sense than some of the martial arts sites I have seen. Everyone has an opinion. Mine is t weigh heavily on basics and root all in a couple of base moves. And other people have other opinions.

I also think people have a tendency to get so locked up in specifics that they loose site of a bigger picture. It seems like many people loose site of the most important subtle things and become obsessed with the least important subtle things.

I believe in finding the right movement skills for THAT individual person and they may differ considerable from the next guy.
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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:18 pm

May 13th, 2009, 11:47 am #9

...A lot of parents don't want their kids to get hurt in a Karate school, and due to our society's propensity to sue, many schools don't make it too real because it tends to scare a lot of people away, and you can't run a successful business because you have the " toughest ten guys in town " I feel that you've got to take people through a process, in which you start out as safe as you can and build toward the intense, hard-hitting practice that should be required of all Black Belt students. You simply can't teach a lot of people to swim by throwing them in the water. Some people have to overcome a lot ( fear of getting hit, hitting someone, confidence and courage to do it, among other things ) to get to that point, and unfortunately there are lots of schools out there that teach safety to such an extreme they don't allow any contact. This mma stuff has value for the people who can handle a baptism by fire, and they like to laugh at the silly karate guys who punch the air, but I'll put my money on a good Kenpo guy any day. When I play randori with my Judo friends their eyes get a little wide when I incorporate some good old-fashioned Kenpo combinations into our routines. I do it respectfully and we share and respect each others knowledge, but when it comes to self defense, they know the score. I found this article on judinfo.com. It takes a pretty objective view about sport fighting vs. karate training. Pretty insightful, and definitely worth a read for both parties involved. - JP 5th Black Wedlake/ White lineage

Many people think of Judo and Taekwondo as sports because they are included along with other major sports in Olympic competition. Boxing, wrestling, Judo, taekwondo, and kickboxing are examples of martial sports. I often hear martial artists who use the term "sport" as if referring to a game with no usefulness. The implication is that a sport is only for "play" and cannot be effective for self defense, fighting or combat. Many martial artists think that the distinction between sport and martial art is that martial artists train for real life.

Actually the distinction is more complex and rather surprising. In discussing it I will make generalizations that may not apply to the way you train in your sport or martial art. However I hope to give you a new way to look at the potential value of sports principles for martial arts training.

One of the primary differences between martial sports and arts is in the value of the training methods. Because of their alleged danger or lethality, many martial arts engage in artificial and even counter-productive training which involves "pulling" techniques, modifying the point of contact, and adding in a precautionary element of movement that, rather than training the body, can inhibit its natural action and the ultimate conclusion of a technique. Slow, careful, non-contact training is not an effective approach to prepare for actual fighting situations that require the opposite reactions. Typifying this approach is a student who falsely equates the ability to break boards with the ability to punch a person in the face. As another example, I have never seen realistic training in throat strikes or eye gouges in any martial arts class, even though these are often recommended for self defense. The teaching generally done for these techniques helps students to understand what to do, but does not provide effective results for fast, reflexive and accurate application of these techniques against an unwilling opponent in real life combat.

Sport, by removing some of the potential dangers, achieves the opposite. That is, sport more typically produces natural, fast, reflexive movement with full power application, achieving a result against a struggling opponent who is also utilizing full power while engaging in strategic and tactical resistance using all of his or her resources and training. Techniques that don't work are soon abandoned, and successful skills are honed against different attackers under a variety of conditions. Maintaining control in various combat situations, both in attack and defense, is difficult when faced with the unpredictable nature of an opponent's efforts, but facing these situations in contest prepares you for similar situations. Each opponent in competition is operating at the limit of physical and psychological skill. By pushing that limit contestants are continually realizing and expanding their potential.

Sometimes the "combat" arts substitute intellectual perception, a highly subjective and deceptive frame of reference, for genuine training of the body and mind. Some martial arts don't train effectively for self defense and combat because they can't train for combat without severe risk to training partners. Many martial arts have instead adopted highly stylized, ritualistic, and even dysfunctional training methods. Ironically, martial sports may provide the superior training in effective combat techniques because martial arts can't be practiced in a real life way without injury.

In martial sports, one purpose of competition is to take the place of the older shinken shobu (life-and-death fights) in developing technique, knowledge, and character. You never see yourself so clearly as when you face your own death. Competition can provide a safe, controlled glimpse at this kind of defeat. Fighting spirit can be developed only through fighting. Surely it is not the same as the battlefield, but it serves a similar purpose, and it is closer to a combat situation than any other form of training.

Of course this can go wrong. Winning and losing can become too important and start to pervert the training process. The ultimate goal should not be the winning of medals. Using sport competition as a metaphor for real fighting can be quite different from playing it as a game. Matches, along with free practice and sparring, are simply different methods for training the mind and body to deal with the adversity of fighting situations.

Just as non-competitive martial arts training may not provide the benefits of competition, training for sport competition may not provide the full scope of self defense training. Martial sports often include non-competitive components. For example, competition is only a part of the Judo curriculum, and Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, was very concerned about preserving those self defense techniques that could not be used with full force in competition. However, Judo remains a remarkably effective self defense training, even after the development of other modern "combat" methods, and even when Judo is practiced today largely as a sport. Jigoro Kano applied modern sport training methodology to the traditional koryu jujutsu and found that it produced a better combat art, which has proven itself again and again over the last 120 years.

Although martial arts and sports both have loftier goals, it is still a fact that many people train in martial arts primarily for self-defense. For those who have never used sport training methods, or those who have never explored traditional bujutsu training, it is easy to discount the effectiveness of the other. As martial artists we should continually seek opportunities to challenge ourselves by examining the weaknesses in our training and keeping our minds open to other methods. I encourage you to discover for yourself how "playing" with a partner in sparring or free practice, or competing against an opponent in contest, can be an effective method of training for self defense.
When Dave said:

"This guy has no clue what Kenpo is really about.

My guess is that he took some lessons somewhere, got to maybe orange, purple belt at best. And he's one of those guys thst only wants to know the "how" not the "why" of kenpo."

Dave was right.


Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

May 13th, 2009, 3:45 pm #10

http://www.minnesotaselfdefense.com/index.php?id=6

But after I read what he had to say I realized something.

This guy has no clue what Kenpo is really about.

My guess is that he took some lessons somewhere, got to maybe orange, purple belt at best. And he's one of those guys thst only wants to know the "how" not the "why" of kenpo.

David Strobel
Minnesota Kenpo Karate Studio
and this guy doesn't know his head from his rear end. Funny thing is, his head actually looks like a rear end.
Last edited by millhouse23 on May 13th, 2009, 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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