Foot placement and movement in a forward bow...

Foot placement and movement in a forward bow...

Joined: June 15th, 2005, 3:34 am

May 11th, 2009, 10:55 pm #1

I get these occasional hairs up my...well, in places one ought not to want stray hairs to go. Recently, been noticing the lack of proper lead foot placement in forward bows, and in the excessive movement of the lead heel when folks transition to one from an NB.

Now. IIRC, the lead foot is > 45-degree internal rotation (heel kicked out) while in an NB. And, when transitioning to a FB, doesn't move. Stays nailed to the floor. The rear foot pivots, but the lead foot does not.

Now, I'll admit to being lazy and a bit of a wuss when it comes to monitoring my own. I've blown out so many of the ligaments in my ankles, that maintaining proper position causes some system-wide distress. So I let it loft widely. BUT!!! I know better, and remind myself when demoing for the outside world, competing, testing, whatever, to keep it torqued tight, and frozen in place, saving the lazy feet for prolonged training sessions so I can walk the next day. (not talking regular training soreness here, folks...talking, like, completely blown deltoid ligaments, so I sound like a popcorn machine when I walk, and can do stupid human tricks with my ankle ranges of motion).

So...to the point: Since we assert that stances and footwork are the foundation of kenpo, and that having them dialed in drives the performance of the rest of the body, why don't we see more good stances? More good basic foot maneuvers, in which stance integrity is maintained?

And...am I wrong about the lead foot in the forward bow? Are the toes of the lead foot supposed to face forward towards 12:00? I still reference SoCK, which shows a more exaggerated lead foot placement. Any other sources that suggest lazy-foot is OK, that I should reference them instead?

D.
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

May 11th, 2009, 11:50 pm #2

Dr. Crouch,

You are correct on the lead foot placement, as you know. It shouldn't move when transitioning into a forward bow for several reasons. I will say, however, since the art is a tailored art, if someone has injuries (like in which you spoke) or issues, changing positions to fit your body or circustance is acceptable. We know that war is not pretty. Fighting is not a beauty contest and in the heat of reality if our foot rotates a quarter turn and doesn't stay where it should, we will still be okay. That doesn't mean slack off with training, however.

I believe in training as hard and perfectly as you can with proper body alignment, weight distribution, mechanics, and such to have a solid structure in which to dominate with. If we don't have that, we will be gambling.

As for the reason why people don't have solid stances, probably because of the flashy slap happy demo Kenpoists who get too fixated on upper quadrant (I should know--I used to be one). My first (several) years of Kenpo stances weren't engrained as important so I was ignorant. When I woke up I began my own personal journey of becoming solid from the ground up. It's been quite a journey for me, but since I have focused so heavily on lower quadrant for the last five years I have drastically improved (mostly over the last three years).

I make sure my students don't suffer the same loss I had for my first handful of years in Kenpo. I am harsh on proper foot, knee, and hip positioning. We work stances hard.

Good post!

Michael Miller, CKF
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Joined: March 5th, 2005, 2:18 pm

May 12th, 2009, 1:53 am #3

I get these occasional hairs up my...well, in places one ought not to want stray hairs to go. Recently, been noticing the lack of proper lead foot placement in forward bows, and in the excessive movement of the lead heel when folks transition to one from an NB.

Now. IIRC, the lead foot is > 45-degree internal rotation (heel kicked out) while in an NB. And, when transitioning to a FB, doesn't move. Stays nailed to the floor. The rear foot pivots, but the lead foot does not.

Now, I'll admit to being lazy and a bit of a wuss when it comes to monitoring my own. I've blown out so many of the ligaments in my ankles, that maintaining proper position causes some system-wide distress. So I let it loft widely. BUT!!! I know better, and remind myself when demoing for the outside world, competing, testing, whatever, to keep it torqued tight, and frozen in place, saving the lazy feet for prolonged training sessions so I can walk the next day. (not talking regular training soreness here, folks...talking, like, completely blown deltoid ligaments, so I sound like a popcorn machine when I walk, and can do stupid human tricks with my ankle ranges of motion).

So...to the point: Since we assert that stances and footwork are the foundation of kenpo, and that having them dialed in drives the performance of the rest of the body, why don't we see more good stances? More good basic foot maneuvers, in which stance integrity is maintained?

And...am I wrong about the lead foot in the forward bow? Are the toes of the lead foot supposed to face forward towards 12:00? I still reference SoCK, which shows a more exaggerated lead foot placement. Any other sources that suggest lazy-foot is OK, that I should reference them instead?

D.
Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

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Joined: November 24th, 2004, 9:07 pm

May 12th, 2009, 3:15 am #4

I get these occasional hairs up my...well, in places one ought not to want stray hairs to go. Recently, been noticing the lack of proper lead foot placement in forward bows, and in the excessive movement of the lead heel when folks transition to one from an NB.

Now. IIRC, the lead foot is > 45-degree internal rotation (heel kicked out) while in an NB. And, when transitioning to a FB, doesn't move. Stays nailed to the floor. The rear foot pivots, but the lead foot does not.

Now, I'll admit to being lazy and a bit of a wuss when it comes to monitoring my own. I've blown out so many of the ligaments in my ankles, that maintaining proper position causes some system-wide distress. So I let it loft widely. BUT!!! I know better, and remind myself when demoing for the outside world, competing, testing, whatever, to keep it torqued tight, and frozen in place, saving the lazy feet for prolonged training sessions so I can walk the next day. (not talking regular training soreness here, folks...talking, like, completely blown deltoid ligaments, so I sound like a popcorn machine when I walk, and can do stupid human tricks with my ankle ranges of motion).

So...to the point: Since we assert that stances and footwork are the foundation of kenpo, and that having them dialed in drives the performance of the rest of the body, why don't we see more good stances? More good basic foot maneuvers, in which stance integrity is maintained?

And...am I wrong about the lead foot in the forward bow? Are the toes of the lead foot supposed to face forward towards 12:00? I still reference SoCK, which shows a more exaggerated lead foot placement. Any other sources that suggest lazy-foot is OK, that I should reference them instead?

D.
>Since we assert that stances and footwork are the foundation of kenpo, and that having them dialed in drives the performance of the rest of the body, why don't we see more good stances? More good basic foot maneuvers, in which stance integrity is maintained? <<br>
The problem doesn't lie only with basic stances, but basics in general. Why? Most new students aren't interested in stressing basics because they're overly concerned with learning the next batch of techniques so that they can acquire their next belt. And speaking of belts, I continue to be amazed by the number of students I see on the mats who don't know the difference between a square knot and a granny knot.

>And...am I wrong about the lead foot in the forward bow? Are the toes of the lead foot supposed to face forward towards 12:00? I still reference SoCK, which shows a more exaggerated lead foot placement. Any other sources that suggest lazy-foot is OK, that I should reference them instead?<<br>
Well, the lead foot pointing forward may be OK now, but it surely wasn't when I first learned it. Mr. Parker admantly opposed that positioning, which was the trademark of Shotokan, because it (1) opened the groin area, (2) exposed the shin, (3) exposed the knee cap, and (4) exposed the entire knee joint to a break. That said, the only advantage to having this forward position was that it made delivery of a rear kick faster.

This subject has the feel of an 80-90 response thread. I'd say more, but you didn't tie Steve Muhammad to it, so Amen will pass it by. Well, maybe not!

Salute
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Joined: February 24th, 2008, 1:36 am

May 12th, 2009, 3:53 am #5

I get these occasional hairs up my...well, in places one ought not to want stray hairs to go. Recently, been noticing the lack of proper lead foot placement in forward bows, and in the excessive movement of the lead heel when folks transition to one from an NB.

Now. IIRC, the lead foot is > 45-degree internal rotation (heel kicked out) while in an NB. And, when transitioning to a FB, doesn't move. Stays nailed to the floor. The rear foot pivots, but the lead foot does not.

Now, I'll admit to being lazy and a bit of a wuss when it comes to monitoring my own. I've blown out so many of the ligaments in my ankles, that maintaining proper position causes some system-wide distress. So I let it loft widely. BUT!!! I know better, and remind myself when demoing for the outside world, competing, testing, whatever, to keep it torqued tight, and frozen in place, saving the lazy feet for prolonged training sessions so I can walk the next day. (not talking regular training soreness here, folks...talking, like, completely blown deltoid ligaments, so I sound like a popcorn machine when I walk, and can do stupid human tricks with my ankle ranges of motion).

So...to the point: Since we assert that stances and footwork are the foundation of kenpo, and that having them dialed in drives the performance of the rest of the body, why don't we see more good stances? More good basic foot maneuvers, in which stance integrity is maintained?

And...am I wrong about the lead foot in the forward bow? Are the toes of the lead foot supposed to face forward towards 12:00? I still reference SoCK, which shows a more exaggerated lead foot placement. Any other sources that suggest lazy-foot is OK, that I should reference them instead?

D.
This problem of "sloppy stances" is not unique to Kenpo....you see it in many styles....I'd even venture to say all styles. I think it's a combination of laziness on the modern students part as well as the instructors part....somewhere, the utter importance of strong and flawless basics lost its importance....maybe in modern students fascination with rapidly changing belt colors and instructors need to play this game to keep up with the "dojo next door" from a commercial/business standpoint. If you have an instructor that won't let you cheat, you are fortunate...if you don't have this instructor, you need to find the discipline in yourself.
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

May 12th, 2009, 4:17 am #6

I get these occasional hairs up my...well, in places one ought not to want stray hairs to go. Recently, been noticing the lack of proper lead foot placement in forward bows, and in the excessive movement of the lead heel when folks transition to one from an NB.

Now. IIRC, the lead foot is > 45-degree internal rotation (heel kicked out) while in an NB. And, when transitioning to a FB, doesn't move. Stays nailed to the floor. The rear foot pivots, but the lead foot does not.

Now, I'll admit to being lazy and a bit of a wuss when it comes to monitoring my own. I've blown out so many of the ligaments in my ankles, that maintaining proper position causes some system-wide distress. So I let it loft widely. BUT!!! I know better, and remind myself when demoing for the outside world, competing, testing, whatever, to keep it torqued tight, and frozen in place, saving the lazy feet for prolonged training sessions so I can walk the next day. (not talking regular training soreness here, folks...talking, like, completely blown deltoid ligaments, so I sound like a popcorn machine when I walk, and can do stupid human tricks with my ankle ranges of motion).

So...to the point: Since we assert that stances and footwork are the foundation of kenpo, and that having them dialed in drives the performance of the rest of the body, why don't we see more good stances? More good basic foot maneuvers, in which stance integrity is maintained?

And...am I wrong about the lead foot in the forward bow? Are the toes of the lead foot supposed to face forward towards 12:00? I still reference SoCK, which shows a more exaggerated lead foot placement. Any other sources that suggest lazy-foot is OK, that I should reference them instead?

D.
Ask yourself these three questions regarding you happy (or unhappy) foot method:

Q1 - Okay, where's your weight transfer prior to the pivot on the ball of the foot?

Q2 - Now, what is the weight distribution during the pivot on the ball?

Q3 - And most importantly, are you on the outside (knife) edge of the rooted foot?

Answer to #1: your lead leg should be accepting enough weight to facilitate the pivoting of the rear foot while making sure that the front heel, hips and shoulders are lined up vertically and that the hips/shoulders do not go beyond the middle of the front foot. Think point of no return and you will shortcut the analytical for the analogical.

Answer to #2: Make sure the heel of your rear foot is up (this allows for the FORWARD part of the FORWARD BOW) and then transfer weight into the rooted foot by pushing forward, THEN land the heel of your rear foot to the ground.

Answer to #3: Why do a proper training horse (if you know my views your gonna' chuckle at this part) that pushes weight to the outside edge of the foot and then sacrifice that brilliant bracing angle for the forward bow by happy footin' your stance changes? I could'a had a V8! Off the top of my head I can think of BS2 where we go from the 12:00 horse to the forward bow to 9:00. A good place to work from for all levels (just don't tell the yeller belts they is learning something few people get to, it might swell their heads. Just tell them they'll see this later on in their training.

And now to hijack Dave's thread and ask a related question;

How much rotation do you use yourself and tell your students to rotate, when rotating the rear foot? Do you want the toes of the rear foot pointing to 12:00 or are you okay with less rotation. Now, there is not much less than the toes pointing to 12:00 rotation so maybe a little in depth discussion as to WHY you are asking for less rotation would be in order.

Me I ask for approximately one Micro Step. A micro step is when your foot rotates on either the ball or the foot, at least 90 degrees up to 180 degrees. Of course a micro step can be completed with the ball AND the heel of the foot to allow for stance adjustments and extension through kicks and strikes.

Clark
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Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

May 12th, 2009, 4:54 am #7

I get these occasional hairs up my...well, in places one ought not to want stray hairs to go. Recently, been noticing the lack of proper lead foot placement in forward bows, and in the excessive movement of the lead heel when folks transition to one from an NB.

Now. IIRC, the lead foot is > 45-degree internal rotation (heel kicked out) while in an NB. And, when transitioning to a FB, doesn't move. Stays nailed to the floor. The rear foot pivots, but the lead foot does not.

Now, I'll admit to being lazy and a bit of a wuss when it comes to monitoring my own. I've blown out so many of the ligaments in my ankles, that maintaining proper position causes some system-wide distress. So I let it loft widely. BUT!!! I know better, and remind myself when demoing for the outside world, competing, testing, whatever, to keep it torqued tight, and frozen in place, saving the lazy feet for prolonged training sessions so I can walk the next day. (not talking regular training soreness here, folks...talking, like, completely blown deltoid ligaments, so I sound like a popcorn machine when I walk, and can do stupid human tricks with my ankle ranges of motion).

So...to the point: Since we assert that stances and footwork are the foundation of kenpo, and that having them dialed in drives the performance of the rest of the body, why don't we see more good stances? More good basic foot maneuvers, in which stance integrity is maintained?

And...am I wrong about the lead foot in the forward bow? Are the toes of the lead foot supposed to face forward towards 12:00? I still reference SoCK, which shows a more exaggerated lead foot placement. Any other sources that suggest lazy-foot is OK, that I should reference them instead?

D.
Just to give a different spin on it. Poor stances could be the result of students being introduced to the sparring game before understanding the importance of
good form.

Kenpo footwork takes more time and study. How many people take the extra effort to hold onto their form vs people that sacrafice everything including defense an an effort to land a powerful strike.

I dont think they are lazy as much as ignorant of the
value of good positioning, ability to change or enter with balance and without loss of continuity...then again not really ignorant of those things as much as
how going from stance-to-stance in harmony with the upper body is going to produce those things plus the
extra power when they settle and are not being knocked back by the very force they are trying to transfer.

I guess you have to be a believer first, which means
getting your ass handed to you by someone with good form, then you sit there rubbing your pains wondering how with what seemed like a single push drag from a N bow, he went through your defense like a knife through butter.




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Joined: September 3rd, 2004, 3:36 am

May 12th, 2009, 6:27 am #8

Ask yourself these three questions regarding you happy (or unhappy) foot method:

Q1 - Okay, where's your weight transfer prior to the pivot on the ball of the foot?

Q2 - Now, what is the weight distribution during the pivot on the ball?

Q3 - And most importantly, are you on the outside (knife) edge of the rooted foot?

Answer to #1: your lead leg should be accepting enough weight to facilitate the pivoting of the rear foot while making sure that the front heel, hips and shoulders are lined up vertically and that the hips/shoulders do not go beyond the middle of the front foot. Think point of no return and you will shortcut the analytical for the analogical.

Answer to #2: Make sure the heel of your rear foot is up (this allows for the FORWARD part of the FORWARD BOW) and then transfer weight into the rooted foot by pushing forward, THEN land the heel of your rear foot to the ground.

Answer to #3: Why do a proper training horse (if you know my views your gonna' chuckle at this part) that pushes weight to the outside edge of the foot and then sacrifice that brilliant bracing angle for the forward bow by happy footin' your stance changes? I could'a had a V8! Off the top of my head I can think of BS2 where we go from the 12:00 horse to the forward bow to 9:00. A good place to work from for all levels (just don't tell the yeller belts they is learning something few people get to, it might swell their heads. Just tell them they'll see this later on in their training.

And now to hijack Dave's thread and ask a related question;

How much rotation do you use yourself and tell your students to rotate, when rotating the rear foot? Do you want the toes of the rear foot pointing to 12:00 or are you okay with less rotation. Now, there is not much less than the toes pointing to 12:00 rotation so maybe a little in depth discussion as to WHY you are asking for less rotation would be in order.

Me I ask for approximately one Micro Step. A micro step is when your foot rotates on either the ball or the foot, at least 90 degrees up to 180 degrees. Of course a micro step can be completed with the ball AND the heel of the foot to allow for stance adjustments and extension through kicks and strikes.

Clark
everything should go int the same direction to have proper mechanics for the shift to the forward bow so the toes should face forward to 12 approx if you are 3 minutes to 12 i think you will still be good hahaha!
later
Jason Arnold
Canada
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

May 12th, 2009, 7:28 am #9

turning that front foot will expose the knee to anti-joint attack, IF and I say IF, you are not moving forward over the front foot.

So Jason, what say you?

In the Coordination sets and in step seven of LF2 the front foot could be turned to take off the stress of the FB and look more like a forward Stance where the toes of the front foot have turned to the direction of travel. The hips are loosened up considerably when the front toes turn.

Clark
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Joined: May 7th, 2004, 11:02 am

May 12th, 2009, 8:21 am #10

everything should go int the same direction to have proper mechanics for the shift to the forward bow so the toes should face forward to 12 approx if you are 3 minutes to 12 i think you will still be good hahaha!
later
Jason Arnold
Canada
A little something I'd like to mention in this regard:

If you read the manuals, you'll notice that the only directions that are mentioned are 12:00, 1:30, 3:00, 4:30, 6:00, 7:30, 9:00 and 10:30. Does that mean that we cannot ever move to 6:30 or 10:45? Of course not, we can step anywhere we need to, it's just a matter of definition. I guess mr. Parker wanted to avoid discussions about wether a step should be to 12:00 or to 12:05, so he only mentioned the 90 degree and 45 degree angles, the rest is variation due to circumstances. (and what are we doing: we're discussing about 5 minutes up or down the clock anyway, probably without realising that what we're saying is that a kenpoist isn't able to step to 10:00 o'clock )

IMO this means that everything pointing between 11:15 and 12:45 is DEFINED to be pointing towards 12 o'clock.

Does that mean that in training stances we can settle for anything other than front foot pointing to 10:30 in a RFB? No, because when applying what we've trained in full action we will always drift a little off angle, everybody does (no exceptions). If I train for an exact 10:30, I can drift some half hour up or down the clock and still be quite allright. If my training was already 30 minutes off, and then I drift another 30 minutes in action, I'll be off by an hour in total, and my front foot will be pointing almost straight forward, exposing the groin and all those other nasty effects of the forward stance.

So, my point is that when performing in full action, I'm pretty happy with my students if I see their front feet pointing anywhere between 10:00 and 11:00 in a RFB, and I'll call that "towards 10:30 o'clock". But if I ask them to show me a forward bow and nothing else, I'll be looking for 10:30 and nothing else (as far as I can determine without actually measuring )

Just my opinion, I'd like to read how others feel about this.

Marcel

***************************************
Marcel de Jong, 4th Black from the Netherlands

http://www.katsudokenpo.nl
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