Couple of my favorite lessons from Mr C

Couple of my favorite lessons from Mr C

Joined: February 1st, 2005, 10:53 pm

June 27th, 2012, 12:43 am #1

How many uses can you think of for the movement of a horizontal punch?

Right inward block...does your arm rotate clockwise or counter clockwise and why?
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Joined: August 23rd, 2010, 6:36 pm

June 27th, 2012, 4:25 am #2

that you are using the forearm to block.
So I guess I don't worry about whether the is rotation, so long as there is torque in the wrist, you can experiment with that thought.

Still throwing horizontal punches?
Gave them up a few years ago. When students get used to making contact with the target when their punching arm is at the fully extended position, I make sure they see it as another way to punch but I stress the vertical punch, or the angled vertical punch.

What happens to the two bones in your arm as you rotate it through the horizontal punch?

Clark
"a very merry un-birthday to you!"
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Joined: February 1st, 2005, 10:53 pm

June 27th, 2012, 8:18 pm #3

How many uses can you think of for the movement of a horizontal punch?

Right inward block...does your arm rotate clockwise or counter clockwise and why?
the question was, how many uses can you think of for the movement of the horizontal punch? this would include it's reverse back to point of origin.

I"ll help begin

elbow break
wrist escape
rear elbow
inward block
upward block
downward block
outward block

which kinda goes hand in hand with the other question I posed...the rotation of the inward block, and why. As you said it doesn't matter, i'll just leave it at that.

And to answer your question. A verticle fist does better align the bones in the forearm with the rest of the body, and provides better structure especially when attacking the head or at upward angles. But yeah, I do thow a good horizontal punch if I see fit. You did away with it?...Cool man.







Last edited by aroc1 on June 27th, 2012, 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

June 27th, 2012, 10:23 pm #4

Things can appear one way but may be another. When learning to hit hard you quickly get disabused of the notion that a vertical punch has more power than turning the hand over. Sure, there are points in the punch where verticality feels stronger however there are important reasons why you turn a punch over and pre-image it as turning over. This is founded in the root traditional karate basics and the principles of boxing. Now the thing is that it is FAR more difficult to learn to properly turn punches over but when you can do it a new vi9sta of power, alignment and continuity of motion are revealed. As far as osseous structural alignment intrinsic to the forarm it is deceptive and you have to view things from a myriad of factors not the least of which is the global effect of pronating the forarm and its consequenes as realted to the entire picture and not simply one fragment of it. All that said I hit vertically with a straight punch all the time but when I do I am being lazy and I always reflect back as a golfer would thinking I just made a substandard shot even though others may praise it and the other guy gets hit fairly hard. This idea that a vertical punch is harder kind of comes from new age karate pop culture and not from full contact ring fighting or intimate study of fundementals of karate or boxing. It all comes clear after hundreds of hours on a heavy bag when guided by a punching trainer.
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Joined: February 1st, 2005, 10:53 pm

June 27th, 2012, 10:36 pm #5

I do a lot of kickboxing myself. I agree with your points. Although I still feel a vertical fist is better supported and aligned at upward angles. I'm also not a tall guy, and have to work with this issue. But what is truth for one, may not be for another.

nice input thanks
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Joined: May 7th, 2009, 2:29 am

June 27th, 2012, 11:15 pm #6

I can hardly believe it Martial Arts information being discussed on KenpoNet and good insights and discussions all around, THANK YOU!
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

June 28th, 2012, 2:22 pm #7


the question was, how many uses can you think of for the movement of the horizontal punch? this would include it's reverse back to point of origin.

I"ll help begin

elbow break
wrist escape
rear elbow
inward block
upward block
downward block
outward block

which kinda goes hand in hand with the other question I posed...the rotation of the inward block, and why. As you said it doesn't matter, i'll just leave it at that.

And to answer your question. A verticle fist does better align the bones in the forearm with the rest of the body, and provides better structure especially when attacking the head or at upward angles. But yeah, I do thow a good horizontal punch if I see fit. You did away with it?...Cool man.






This is a topic in and of itself; and a good one I might add.

One major difference is a horizontal punch goes "to" the target and a vertical punch goes "through" the target. I like both of them and do both of them, however.

Being an ex boxer, I am used to the horizontal punch in a sport context. As for street, the vertical is better as a punch and the horizontal works very well for other things (utilizing the torque) such as hyperextending the arm. Although there is nothing wrong with using a horizontal punch to the body, you are gambling to use it to the face without hand protection. A vertical, as you mentioned, aligns the bones properly and has a much more favorable outcome if you punch the face bare handed.

Good topic. All in all, both are very effective used in the right context.

Michael Miller
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Joined: February 25th, 2009, 8:54 am

June 28th, 2012, 4:36 pm #8

things appear differently than they are. I think you are labeling structural parellel configuration of bones as optimum alignment relative to the punch. But you see in biomechanics the body often uses complex geometric configurations to summate toward goals.
Also the vertical punch sacrifices a lot of backup mass by seperating the relationship of the weapon's alignment from tne central axis. Wing Chun guys try and adjust for this by drawing the punches to the centerline and throwing multiples but it does not work. The vertical punch feels like it hits hard if you hit a hard surface but you simply can't generate the power. A straight punch gets it's power from a kinetic chain linked to 2 fundemental power principles. Linear acceleration of the body by translating forward and rotation of the torso and these things cannot be corrctly transmitted into a vertical punch because of the striking surfaces terminal relationship to the body's center of mass.

Another consideration is that punches in karate do not rotate to the pronated position untile after they contact the target. You spin a punch down through a target and not on it with the excepetion of when you are hitting a very hard surface that has no give like a guy with the back of his head against a wall. Or when you simply want to make fast surface contact without pentrating.

This does not mean you never use a vertical punch. It simply means that it generates suboptimum power based on the major effectors of power. YOu might just like the punch. You might decide to use it for purposes of "fitting". It is more expedient at a certain distance if you can't make body position adjustments. You might want to teach it to people that are not commited to really learning how to punch in a short course.

My final statement..

****The vertical punch is a sham and a joke. It is an attempt for karate guys to try and make themselves and others believe they are cool. Guys that use it may secretly have female gender identity. Generally you will find that the guys that use it were the ones that never got picked for teams in High School or had cool girlfriends. I hate it. I just hate it so friggen much I can't even tell you how much. It also seems to be a gateway to more flaky karate just as marijuana is said to lead to stronger drugs.****
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

June 28th, 2012, 4:59 pm #9

I disagree. As I stated, I like both and both work if used correctly and in the right context.
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Joined: December 5th, 2006, 3:38 pm

June 28th, 2012, 5:50 pm #10

things appear differently than they are. I think you are labeling structural parellel configuration of bones as optimum alignment relative to the punch. But you see in biomechanics the body often uses complex geometric configurations to summate toward goals.
Also the vertical punch sacrifices a lot of backup mass by seperating the relationship of the weapon's alignment from tne central axis. Wing Chun guys try and adjust for this by drawing the punches to the centerline and throwing multiples but it does not work. The vertical punch feels like it hits hard if you hit a hard surface but you simply can't generate the power. A straight punch gets it's power from a kinetic chain linked to 2 fundemental power principles. Linear acceleration of the body by translating forward and rotation of the torso and these things cannot be corrctly transmitted into a vertical punch because of the striking surfaces terminal relationship to the body's center of mass.

Another consideration is that punches in karate do not rotate to the pronated position untile after they contact the target. You spin a punch down through a target and not on it with the excepetion of when you are hitting a very hard surface that has no give like a guy with the back of his head against a wall. Or when you simply want to make fast surface contact without pentrating.

This does not mean you never use a vertical punch. It simply means that it generates suboptimum power based on the major effectors of power. YOu might just like the punch. You might decide to use it for purposes of "fitting". It is more expedient at a certain distance if you can't make body position adjustments. You might want to teach it to people that are not commited to really learning how to punch in a short course.

My final statement..

****The vertical punch is a sham and a joke. It is an attempt for karate guys to try and make themselves and others believe they are cool. Guys that use it may secretly have female gender identity. Generally you will find that the guys that use it were the ones that never got picked for teams in High School or had cool girlfriends. I hate it. I just hate it so friggen much I can't even tell you how much. It also seems to be a gateway to more flaky karate just as marijuana is said to lead to stronger drugs.****
Sorry Mr. Hanes, not buying it. You can talk about bio-mechanics all day long and be correct in your analysis but when it comes to raining blows on another human being who's trying to do the same to you, reality beats theory. I've dropped guys with both strikes. Training at the San Diego Boxing Club and Kickboxing in the late 70's, it was all about rotating to the "straight punch". As a martial artist studying under the likes of Mills, Hancock, and Planas, I was introduced to the science of the Quarter and Vertical punches. In a Goose Creek bar, (N. Chas. S.C. circa. 1985), a marine and I took on four local cowboy types. Realizing the situation was going south, I threw the first punch at the closest guy, which was a vertical to the nose. His nose exploded as he dropped causing the other three to hesitate. Didn't matter because I was already hitting the next closest guy. Point I'm trying to make is power is relative. Adding in momentum, targeting, attitude, influences the dynamic. I wouldn't poo-poo a particular weapon just because the book says it "should" be weaker than another strike. Get out there and hit a few people with intention and then check your results. You might find that your bio-mechanic book left out a few parts when it comes hurting not nice folks with your "weak" punch. By the way, you are partially right. I didn't play high School sports (1975-78), to busy fighting and getting into trouble. I did have have several smokin' hot girlfriends though and they were quite pleased with my masculinity.
Last edited by kenpokiwi on June 28th, 2012, 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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