Checking The Storm

Checking The Storm

Joined: September 24th, 2007, 2:09 pm

June 9th, 2008, 3:48 am #1

I have seen two variations of the ideal phase in Checking the Storm starting from after the left extended outward block:

Variation 1:
- Left front snap kick to the groin.
- Plant left foot (toward 10).
- Right snapping knife-edge kick to the inside of the right knee.

Variation 2:
- Front chicken kick (left to the groin, right to the solar plexus).

In my opinion the second variation has a faster timing with body mechanics that are easier and less awkward for beginner students. On the other hand, it seems that variation 1 teaches you to better gauge your distance and allows better target accuracy.

Variation 1 generally seems to be the most common and preferred method of execution. What do you guys think?

- Ron
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

June 9th, 2008, 3:01 pm #2

Good topic!

We must look at each technique in different ways. First of all when learning the ideal phase we must understand from the student's perspective (at the time of learning the tech) and must know why it is done a particular way in that time frame. With that being said this technique is a yellow belt technique meaning that it is taught to white belts. They are beginners--period. With that being said we must understand the beginners mindset and what makes most sense for them to learn. Later things can be manipulated to fit our current skill level if we wish.

The lesson here in this technique is to get out of the way. It will be next to impossible to stop or trap that arm bringing that club down at mach speed. We bring our hands up (double factor motion) with an achored left arm so that our hand is not extended out to get our fingers broken. Our right hand is in the cover position at solar plexus, which is set up for the back knuckle.

We technically should not be making any contact with the arm at first. He will miss and will possibly retaliate by coming back on the horizontal plane and that is where the check will come in. It may occur unintentionally anyway since you are kicking him in the groin and we usually hold where it hurts. If he still has the club it will come your way anyway.

After we fire that front snap kick we must land in a twist position with our right hip forward since it sets up our sidekick. This MUST be done since we show the parallel in Buckling Branch. Checking the Storm says front kick with FRONT leg land in twist and side kick with right leg. Buckling Branch says front kick with REAR leg land in opposite twist (left hip forward) and fire a side kick with left leg.

If we elminate the foot lesson in Checking the Storm we will be missing the parallel to Buckling Branch.

Again, this is ideal phase with an understanding as to why it is done a certain way in the learning process. In reality do what works.

Yours,

Michael Miller, CKF
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Joined: February 13th, 2004, 1:04 am

June 9th, 2008, 11:00 pm #3

I have seen two variations of the ideal phase in Checking the Storm starting from after the left extended outward block:

Variation 1:
- Left front snap kick to the groin.
- Plant left foot (toward 10).
- Right snapping knife-edge kick to the inside of the right knee.

Variation 2:
- Front chicken kick (left to the groin, right to the solar plexus).

In my opinion the second variation has a faster timing with body mechanics that are easier and less awkward for beginner students. On the other hand, it seems that variation 1 teaches you to better gauge your distance and allows better target accuracy.

Variation 1 generally seems to be the most common and preferred method of execution. What do you guys think?

- Ron
First variation matches/Mirrors the foot work as shown in the technique Buckling Branch. You have the Kick turn Kick motion analysis or to some the Crane family!
Second version is known as the Jim Mitchell version as shown in the early 80's video that was being passed around.
Both work but we must remember the Principles of How and Why something is taught versus Speed and entertainment as a means of priority in teaching beginners who are still dealing with sound basics and foundation of learning tools.
TCB...Sean Kelley
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Joined: May 31st, 2006, 4:12 pm

June 10th, 2008, 3:08 am #4

I have seen two variations of the ideal phase in Checking the Storm starting from after the left extended outward block:

Variation 1:
- Left front snap kick to the groin.
- Plant left foot (toward 10).
- Right snapping knife-edge kick to the inside of the right knee.

Variation 2:
- Front chicken kick (left to the groin, right to the solar plexus).

In my opinion the second variation has a faster timing with body mechanics that are easier and less awkward for beginner students. On the other hand, it seems that variation 1 teaches you to better gauge your distance and allows better target accuracy.

Variation 1 generally seems to be the most common and preferred method of execution. What do you guys think?

- Ron
i actually prefer variation #1

only because I like to keep both feet on the ground!

i get nervous when both of my feet don't touch the floor


Respectfully,
Maurice Gomez
MAX Dojo American Kenpo Karate
www.maxdojo.com
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

June 10th, 2008, 5:32 am #5

Good topic!

We must look at each technique in different ways. First of all when learning the ideal phase we must understand from the student's perspective (at the time of learning the tech) and must know why it is done a particular way in that time frame. With that being said this technique is a yellow belt technique meaning that it is taught to white belts. They are beginners--period. With that being said we must understand the beginners mindset and what makes most sense for them to learn. Later things can be manipulated to fit our current skill level if we wish.

The lesson here in this technique is to get out of the way. It will be next to impossible to stop or trap that arm bringing that club down at mach speed. We bring our hands up (double factor motion) with an achored left arm so that our hand is not extended out to get our fingers broken. Our right hand is in the cover position at solar plexus, which is set up for the back knuckle.

We technically should not be making any contact with the arm at first. He will miss and will possibly retaliate by coming back on the horizontal plane and that is where the check will come in. It may occur unintentionally anyway since you are kicking him in the groin and we usually hold where it hurts. If he still has the club it will come your way anyway.

After we fire that front snap kick we must land in a twist position with our right hip forward since it sets up our sidekick. This MUST be done since we show the parallel in Buckling Branch. Checking the Storm says front kick with FRONT leg land in twist and side kick with right leg. Buckling Branch says front kick with REAR leg land in opposite twist (left hip forward) and fire a side kick with left leg.

If we elminate the foot lesson in Checking the Storm we will be missing the parallel to Buckling Branch.

Again, this is ideal phase with an understanding as to why it is done a certain way in the learning process. In reality do what works.

Yours,

Michael Miller, CKF
Well, as is written in the standardized manual aka Big Red,

Checking the Storm

skipping to number three,
3. Plant your left foot (toward 10:00). Be sure to properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent, as you deliver a right snapping knife edge kick to the inside of your opponent's right knee.

4. Plant your right foot.........

Makes me wonder when I hear the Cat Com argument applied to something as open ended as, "Be sure to properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent,".

Why Mike, is the twist stance the answer? Why not a close kneel, a forward bow, or a purely transitory heel to toe weight transfer (natural stepping motion) that cuts the knife edge kick timing in half?

Clark
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Joined: March 10th, 2004, 8:26 pm

June 10th, 2008, 11:52 am #6

i actually prefer variation #1

only because I like to keep both feet on the ground!

i get nervous when both of my feet don't touch the floor


Respectfully,
Maurice Gomez
MAX Dojo American Kenpo Karate
www.maxdojo.com
anytime you kick, you are cutting your base support in half. a chicken-kick or combination kick will further cut into any base support you had left. better to develop the balance and rooting to support your body on a single leg, then switching from one leg to the other, then combinations.

don't rely on speed and timing to replace balance and structure. add speed and timing to enhance good technique.

regarding the technique, why not offer both based on environment, target availability, and preference (as determined by student's ability)

pete
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

June 10th, 2008, 3:23 pm #7

Well, as is written in the standardized manual aka Big Red,

Checking the Storm

skipping to number three,
3. Plant your left foot (toward 10:00). Be sure to properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent, as you deliver a right snapping knife edge kick to the inside of your opponent's right knee.

4. Plant your right foot.........

Makes me wonder when I hear the Cat Com argument applied to something as open ended as, "Be sure to properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent,".

Why Mike, is the twist stance the answer? Why not a close kneel, a forward bow, or a purely transitory heel to toe weight transfer (natural stepping motion) that cuts the knife edge kick timing in half?

Clark
Clark,

This becomes an issue of natural anatomical alignment. Our hips are designed to throw front kicks and back kicks as our natural motion is to go forward and back with our steps. It goes against hip structure to throw side kicks, roundhouse kicks and heel/hook kicks. I am not saying it is wrong to do them, but I am saying that it requires more work to apply them correctly without damaging our hips.

People who have poor hip structure or weak hips will have difficulties ever executing proper side kicks, roundhouse kicks and hook kicks. I am a walking example. I don't have weak hips, but I have found that my hips are naturally tight for some reason--hence the reason my side, round and hook kicks are not impressive. My front and back kicks are great and my spinning back kicks are fine, but the others are not that good in my opinion.

Now you asked about why we use the twist. Here is why: It eliminates an "and then" because it aligns our hip correctly toward our target so that all we have to do is fire the side kick straight out. If we go to a forward bow or close kneel position we could fire a front kick without an "and then" but we would have to position our hips at some point to fire a side kick from that position. So the twist sets us up correctly for the kick.

If you don't want to look at things from a category completion standpoint, that is your choice; but, you should look at what is most logical in terms of anatomical alignment, in my opinion.

"Makes me wonder when I hear the Cat Com argument applied to something as open ended as, 'Be sure to properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent,'.

First of all this should apply in every circumstance--period. You should always properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent. Secondly, we are talking about the ideal phase of the technique. Take away the ideal and you have many alternatives. The ideal is set up to teach a lesson. Some get it, some don't.

Salute,

Michael Miller, CKF
Last edited by millhouse23 on June 10th, 2008, 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 4th, 2004, 8:13 pm

June 10th, 2008, 5:11 pm #8

Well, as is written in the standardized manual aka Big Red,

Checking the Storm

skipping to number three,
3. Plant your left foot (toward 10:00). Be sure to properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent, as you deliver a right snapping knife edge kick to the inside of your opponent's right knee.

4. Plant your right foot.........

Makes me wonder when I hear the Cat Com argument applied to something as open ended as, "Be sure to properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent,".

Why Mike, is the twist stance the answer? Why not a close kneel, a forward bow, or a purely transitory heel to toe weight transfer (natural stepping motion) that cuts the knife edge kick timing in half?

Clark
Clark,

I read your masterpiece over on the AKF about me. I figured I would respond to that over here as I do not post on that forum. I am not sure why you wouldn't post it here as well, but that's okay.

You are making your own assumptions, my friend. It sounds to me like you are missing the proper elements of a twist stance if you are getting in your own way when you kick out of it. A twist stance should not bind you up, in my opinion. By the way, in my post I said "twist position" not twist stance. I said that because many people do the twist stance binding themselves up so that they would get in their own way. If that is how you do a twist stance, you would have to modify it so that your rear leg has a clear path without your other leg getting in the way.

A twist stance is primarily used to aid you in moving forward and reverse. It has other uses, but since it is supposed to assist you in moving forward and back (it's a transition) why would you position yourself to get in your own way?

Look at Kicking Set. On the second kick if you do your twist incorrectly (transition for crossover) you will get in your own way. I see it a lot. I realize this generally comes in at the orange belt area, but that's is just an example.

By the way, I do teach this way to beginners. I teach them about a twist position and then later they learn the proper elements of a twist stance. I have never had any trouble teaching this way. If you know how to teach, your students will learn.

When I said MUST be taught this way, I was relating to Category Completion. If you don't care about the science of the system, again, that is your choice.

Michael Miller, CKF

Last edited by millhouse23 on June 10th, 2008, 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

June 10th, 2008, 5:34 pm #9

From KN,

After we fire that front snap kick we must land in a twist position with our right hip forward since it sets up our sidekick. This MUST be done since we show the parallel in Buckling Branch. Checking the Storm says front kick with FRONT leg land in twist and side kick with right leg. Buckling Branch says front kick with REAR leg land in opposite twist (left hip forward) and fire a side kick with left leg.

Ummm, "only a Sith speaks in absolutes!" I couldn't resist. Devil

we must land in a twist position - hmmmm, twist position? Twisting involves the upper body as the legs partially collapse into a crossed position. THis coiling of the lower quadrant does not aide the side kick. The twist stance increases the time and forces involved that slow down the side kick. This can be good or bad, in Checking it could be bad (Kenpo Hop anyone?), in Buckling it is most likely good.

right hip forward - hmmm again, if this is a POSITION and not a knees together twist stance (as I suspect) then hip forward means his rotational and directional force are putting him closer to his opponent, making stability in the position poor. Sounds like the Kenpo Hop is involved.

This MUST be done - "Only a Sith, (Whisperand robert), speak in absolutes!" did I say that again? I finally found something to use the whisper smiley for.

land in twist - Does this mean that Mikey teaches white belt beginners how to do a twist stance? If you expect a white belt to know how to land in a stance, it must mean that he is teaching that stance.

CD
Happy now?
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Joined: October 21st, 2006, 9:13 pm

June 10th, 2008, 5:58 pm #10

Clark,

This becomes an issue of natural anatomical alignment. Our hips are designed to throw front kicks and back kicks as our natural motion is to go forward and back with our steps. It goes against hip structure to throw side kicks, roundhouse kicks and heel/hook kicks. I am not saying it is wrong to do them, but I am saying that it requires more work to apply them correctly without damaging our hips.

People who have poor hip structure or weak hips will have difficulties ever executing proper side kicks, roundhouse kicks and hook kicks. I am a walking example. I don't have weak hips, but I have found that my hips are naturally tight for some reason--hence the reason my side, round and hook kicks are not impressive. My front and back kicks are great and my spinning back kicks are fine, but the others are not that good in my opinion.

Now you asked about why we use the twist. Here is why: It eliminates an "and then" because it aligns our hip correctly toward our target so that all we have to do is fire the side kick straight out. If we go to a forward bow or close kneel position we could fire a front kick without an "and then" but we would have to position our hips at some point to fire a side kick from that position. So the twist sets us up correctly for the kick.

If you don't want to look at things from a category completion standpoint, that is your choice; but, you should look at what is most logical in terms of anatomical alignment, in my opinion.

"Makes me wonder when I hear the Cat Com argument applied to something as open ended as, 'Be sure to properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent,'.

First of all this should apply in every circumstance--period. You should always properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent. Secondly, we are talking about the ideal phase of the technique. Take away the ideal and you have many alternatives. The ideal is set up to teach a lesson. Some get it, some don't.

Salute,

Michael Miller, CKF
This becomes an issue of natural anatomical alignment. Our hips are designed to throw front kicks and back kicks as our natural motion is to go forward and back with our steps. It goes against hip structure to throw side kicks, roundhouse kicks and heel/hook kicks. I am not saying it is wrong to do them, but I am saying that it requires more work to apply them correctly without damaging our hips.

I think that we as humans design the kick around the natural formation of the body and how it use locomotion. When I am unable to raise my leg and step over a low barrier with a natural step, I rotate my hips and do whjat looks a lot like a roundhouse kick. So, me wanting to be more efficient, I use a roundhouse walking motion.

People who have poor hip structure or weak hips will have difficulties ever executing proper side kicks, roundhouse kicks and hook kicks. I am a walking example. I don't have weak hips, but I have found that my hips are naturally tight for some reason--hence the reason my side, round and hook kicks are not impressive. My front and back kicks are great and my spinning back kicks are fine, but the others are not that good in my opinion.

Side kick no higher than the mid thigh of your attacker. Roundhouse kick on a diagonal, it hits like an uppercut punch. My opinion.

Now you asked about why we use the twist. Here is why: It eliminates an "and then" because it aligns our hip correctly toward our target so that all we have to do is fire the side kick straight out. If we go to a forward bow or close kneel position we could fire a front kick without an "and then" but we would have to position our hips at some point to fire a side kick from that position. So the twist sets us up correctly for the kick.

This is where we talked about that reverse step through that you and I disagreed on. How you pivot on your base foot determines which kick will be used. You are telling me that you have eliminated an "and then":, but you have also eliminated lost the power that comes from the centripetal force of the hips as they rotate through the FB or close kneel. I will always trade alignment when advancing on an opponent for stability & mobility. Ideal Phase is the goal for the mats, you can't expect the world to conform to your ideal.

If you don't want to look at things from a category completion standpoint, that is your choice; but, you should look at what is most logical in terms of anatomical alignment, in my opinion.

Let's look at what is what is good, better or best. How do you see a anatomically aligned body in a twist stance, that's an oxymoron Mike. Tell me what part of the twist is the twist part. It ain't the legs, they're crossed. It aint the arms, they're checking.

"Makes me wonder when I hear the Cat Com argument applied to something as open ended as, 'Be sure to properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent,'.

First of all this should apply in every circumstance--period. You should always properly gauge the distance between you and your opponent. Secondly, we are talking about the ideal phase of the technique. Take away the ideal and you have many alternatives. The ideal is set up to teach a lesson. Some get it, some don't.

When I land down from the lead leg ball kick, I put my foot down between 9 and 10 (ideal), this is my gauge leg, it gets out of the way and aligns the rear leg to execute whichever kick I want to use. the second kick is set up by where your right foot stepped when slipping the weapon.

Everyone should get it Mike. It's what we do, the ability to get students to perform at a higer level than they themselves believe they can.

CD

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