2] Tomas and all, consider this scripture: John 6:38

2] Tomas and all, consider this scripture: John 6:38

Joined: June 29th, 2012, 5:26 pm

May 13th, 2016, 4:00 pm #1

John 6:38
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

"I have come down from heaven", Jesus said. Clearly, Jesus came down from heaven. He comes from heaven, and have been sent to the world.

Clearly, this passage speaks of Him as preexisting in heaven before He existed on earth.

Here are some questions to think about:

1. Who was He who came down from heaven? Does He have a name? If so, what is His name in heaven?
2. What was His nature of existence in heaven? Is He invisible and immortal?
3. Who is He relative to God?

Do you believe what Jesus says in this verse?

If not, why not?

If you do, how do you answer the 3 questions above? Do you have answers?
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Joined: January 10th, 2004, 7:03 am

May 14th, 2016, 8:00 pm #2

Michael:

John 6:38
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

"I have come down from heaven", Jesus said. Clearly, Jesus came down from heaven. He comes from heaven, and have been sent to the world.

Clearly, this passage speaks of Him as preexisting in heaven before He existed on earth.

Here are some questions to think about:

1. Who was He who came down from heaven? Does He have a name? If so, what is His name in heaven?
2. What was His nature of existence in heaven? Is He invisible and immortal?
3. Who is He relative to God?

Do you believe what Jesus says in this verse?

If not, why not?

If you do, how do you answer the 3 questions above? Do you have answers?

Tomas:

My answers: Yes, I believe totally in what Jesus says in this verse, I believe everything anyone inspired says in the Bible. So if for example Sadducees claimed there is no life after death, I don't believe that, they were not inspired to say that. Or if Pharisees said Jesus committed blasphemy, I don't believe that. But I believe of course everything Jesus said, he is always infallible. And I believe everything that apostles wrote in the Bible, they were inspired. Likewise what prophets of God wrote in the Bible, they were inspired, it is all true.

So my answers to your other questions:
1. Before he came down from heaven, he was already the Word, and the Son of God. When did he become the Christ, already in preexistence, or was he anointed in Mary, I don't know. God anointed him.
Does he have a name? Now his main name is Jesus. Another name of his is Immanuel. He still has those names in heaven. He did not have those names in his preexistence in heaven. Maybe his name was Michael, that would be true if he is the Archangel. Or possibly he did not have any name. Or his preexistence name is not revealed in the Bible.
2. His nature in his preexistence in heaven was probably as a powerful spirit being. Though I can't completely eliminate the possibility of what some Oneness Pentecostals teach, that in his preexistence he was not a person, but a form. Is he invisible and immortal? Now he is. Back then, in his preexistence, if he was a powerful spirit being, he was invisible too. If he was just a form, he was perhaps visible. But he was not immortal, he died later on the cross. But now he won't die again, he is now immortal.
3. Who is He relative to God? If Oneness Pentecostals are right, he is now in a human spiritual glorified body with God formerly incarnate inside, now dwelling inside, since I believe he no longer has flesh. He is therefore God, the only person of the Godhead.
If Trinitarians or Binitarians are right, he is now the second person of the Godhead, with similarly a glorified human body, where the second person was incarnated, and now dwells, since he no longer has flesh.
If Arian churches are right, he is now a powerful spiritual person, with a spiritual body in which the spirit was incarnated and now dwells, and that spiritual person is the second most powerful person in the world, he might be God's holy Archangel.
But regardless of the theories above, he is God's holy Christ, the anointed King of kings, the Word, our Lord. That's who he is relative to God for sure. And he is faithfully and lovingly obedient to God the Father. So that is his obedient relation to God.
So as you can see, I do have answers. And where the Bible provides us with clear answers, I am dogmatic about my answers. Where the Bible provides us at most with possible hints, about what Jesus might be, I am likewise not able to be dogmatic, I can provide only guesses. I expect we will know far more after we are resurrected. Like Paul wrote, now we see through glass darkly, but when the perfect comes, we will know.
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Joined: June 29th, 2012, 5:26 pm

May 15th, 2016, 8:26 am #3

Michael:

John 6:38
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

"I have come down from heaven", Jesus said. Clearly, Jesus came down from heaven. He comes from heaven, and have been sent to the world.

Clearly, this passage speaks of Him as preexisting in heaven before He existed on earth.

Here are some questions to think about:

1. Who was He who came down from heaven? Does He have a name? If so, what is His name in heaven?
2. What was His nature of existence in heaven? Is He invisible and immortal?
3. Who is He relative to God?

Do you believe what Jesus says in this verse?

If not, why not?

If you do, how do you answer the 3 questions above? Do you have answers?

Tomas:

My answers: Yes, I believe totally in what Jesus says in this verse, I believe everything anyone inspired says in the Bible. So if for example Sadducees claimed there is no life after death, I don't believe that, they were not inspired to say that. Or if Pharisees said Jesus committed blasphemy, I don't believe that. But I believe of course everything Jesus said, he is always infallible. And I believe everything that apostles wrote in the Bible, they were inspired. Likewise what prophets of God wrote in the Bible, they were inspired, it is all true.

So my answers to your other questions:
1. Before he came down from heaven, he was already the Word, and the Son of God. When did he become the Christ, already in preexistence, or was he anointed in Mary, I don't know. God anointed him.
Does he have a name? Now his main name is Jesus. Another name of his is Immanuel. He still has those names in heaven. He did not have those names in his preexistence in heaven. Maybe his name was Michael, that would be true if he is the Archangel. Or possibly he did not have any name. Or his preexistence name is not revealed in the Bible.
2. His nature in his preexistence in heaven was probably as a powerful spirit being. Though I can't completely eliminate the possibility of what some Oneness Pentecostals teach, that in his preexistence he was not a person, but a form. Is he invisible and immortal? Now he is. Back then, in his preexistence, if he was a powerful spirit being, he was invisible too. If he was just a form, he was perhaps visible. But he was not immortal, he died later on the cross. But now he won't die again, he is now immortal.
3. Who is He relative to God? If Oneness Pentecostals are right, he is now in a human spiritual glorified body with God formerly incarnate inside, now dwelling inside, since I believe he no longer has flesh. He is therefore God, the only person of the Godhead.
If Trinitarians or Binitarians are right, he is now the second person of the Godhead, with similarly a glorified human body, where the second person was incarnated, and now dwells, since he no longer has flesh.
If Arian churches are right, he is now a powerful spiritual person, with a spiritual body in which the spirit was incarnated and now dwells, and that spiritual person is the second most powerful person in the world, he might be God's holy Archangel.
But regardless of the theories above, he is God's holy Christ, the anointed King of kings, the Word, our Lord. That's who he is relative to God for sure. And he is faithfully and lovingly obedient to God the Father. So that is his obedient relation to God.
So as you can see, I do have answers. And where the Bible provides us with clear answers, I am dogmatic about my answers. Where the Bible provides us at most with possible hints, about what Jesus might be, I am likewise not able to be dogmatic, I can provide only guesses. I expect we will know far more after we are resurrected. Like Paul wrote, now we see through glass darkly, but when the perfect comes, we will know.

ME:

Who was He who came down from heaven?
Your answer: the Word, the Son of God.

Does He have a name? If so, what is His name in heaven?
Your answer: You don't really know.

I agree that it is the Word, the Son of God was Him who came down from heaven. And before He came down from heaven and came to earth, He is called or referred to in scriptures as the Word, the Son of God, the Christ. Certainly, scriptures does not call or refer to Him in the name Michael.

What was His nature of existence in heaven? That you can't really tell. So, you don't know.

Well, as for me, being referred to by John as the Word, that He is spirit in nature.

Is He invisible and immortal? I was referring of course to the time before He came down from heaven. And your answer is that, as to His being invisible or not, you really don't know or can't tell. And as to His being immortal, you say He was not immortal.

As for me, being a spirit, He is invisible. And that He is immortal. His dying later on the cross was not that He was not immortal, but that, because He became a mortal human.

Who is He relative to God? You said "he is God's holy Christ, the anointed King of kings, the Word, our Lord.".

As for me, in relation to God, He is the Son of God.
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Joined: May 19th, 2013, 11:04 pm

May 15th, 2016, 4:15 pm #4

John 6:38
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

"I have come down from heaven", Jesus said. Clearly, Jesus came down from heaven. He comes from heaven, and have been sent to the world.

Clearly, this passage speaks of Him as preexisting in heaven before He existed on earth.

Here are some questions to think about:

1. Who was He who came down from heaven? Does He have a name? If so, what is His name in heaven?
2. What was His nature of existence in heaven? Is He invisible and immortal?
3. Who is He relative to God?

Do you believe what Jesus says in this verse?

If not, why not?

If you do, how do you answer the 3 questions above? Do you have answers?
The Bible says there is only one God (Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Cor. 8:6). The Bible also says that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5).

Therefore, there is no way that Jesus preexisted as God IN ADDITION to the God who SENT him and whose WILL Jesus was sent to do (John 6:38).

Therefore, the idea that John 6:38 speaks of Christ as preexisting in heaven is a TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus said as "coming down from heaven" which, to me, is simply a figure of speech to describe his "coming from God" or being "SENT by God" (John 17:3).

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Joined: June 29th, 2012, 5:26 pm

May 15th, 2016, 7:05 pm #5

John 6:38 does not speak o Christ as preexisting in heaven.

The Bible says there is only one God (Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Cor. 8:6). The Bible also says that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5).

Therefore, there is no way that Jesus preexisted as God IN ADDITION to the God who SENT him and whose WILL Jesus was sent to do (John 6:38).

Therefore, the idea that John 6:38 speaks of Christ as preexisting in heaven is a TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus said as "coming down from heaven" which, to me, is simply a figure of speech to describe his "coming from God" or being "SENT by God" (John 17:3).

ME:

There is only one God. Jesus is a man. No problem there.

Now, you said "Therefore, the idea that John 6:38 speaks of Christ as preexisting in heaven is a TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus said as "coming down from heaven" which, to me, is simply a figure of speech to describe his "coming from God" or being "SENT by God" (John 17:3)."

The verse says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

Where is the figure of speech there? The statement is plain and simple. If you say that the statement "For I have come down from heaven" is a figure of speech, please explain how it is a figure of speech. You can start by telling us what type of figure of speech it is, and show us why you say it is such type. Is it a simile, metaphor, hyperbole, personification, synecdoche, or what?
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Joined: May 19th, 2013, 11:04 pm

May 21st, 2016, 12:24 am #6

John 6:38 does not speak o Christ as preexisting in heaven.

The Bible says there is only one God (Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Cor. 8:6). The Bible also says that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5).

Therefore, there is no way that Jesus preexisted as God IN ADDITION to the God who SENT him and whose WILL Jesus was sent to do (John 6:38).

Therefore, the idea that John 6:38 speaks of Christ as preexisting in heaven is a TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus said as "coming down from heaven" which, to me, is simply a figure of speech to describe his "coming from God" or being "SENT by God" (John 17:3).

ME:

There is only one God. Jesus is a man. No problem there.

Now, you said "Therefore, the idea that John 6:38 speaks of Christ as preexisting in heaven is a TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus said as "coming down from heaven" which, to me, is simply a figure of speech to describe his "coming from God" or being "SENT by God" (John 17:3)."

The verse says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

Where is the figure of speech there? The statement is plain and simple. If you say that the statement "For I have come down from heaven" is a figure of speech, please explain how it is a figure of speech. You can start by telling us what type of figure of speech it is, and show us why you say it is such type. Is it a simile, metaphor, hyperbole, personification, synecdoche, or what?

INCQUISITOR:

"For I came down from heaven," is simply Jesus' another way of saying, "For I proceeded forth and came from God" (John 8:42).

I don't believe Jesus intended to say that he pre-existed in heaven as God. First of all, Jesus acknowledged that he is a MAN (John 8:40). Second of all, Jesus acknowledged that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3).

Therefore, if Jesus did not pre-exist as God, it would have made no sense for Jesus to have pre-existed in heaven as anyone or anything but God.

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Joined: June 29th, 2012, 5:26 pm

May 21st, 2016, 7:11 pm #7


John 6:38 does not speak o Christ as preexisting in heaven.

The Bible says there is only one God (Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Cor. 8:6). The Bible also says that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5).

Therefore, there is no way that Jesus preexisted as God IN ADDITION to the God who SENT him and whose WILL Jesus was sent to do (John 6:38).

Therefore, the idea that John 6:38 speaks of Christ as preexisting in heaven is a TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus said as "coming down from heaven" which, to me, is simply a figure of speech to describe his "coming from God" or being "SENT by God" (John 17:3).

ME:

There is only one God. Jesus is a man. No problem there.

Now, you said "Therefore, the idea that John 6:38 speaks of Christ as preexisting in heaven is a TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus said as "coming down from heaven" which, to me, is simply a figure of speech to describe his "coming from God" or being "SENT by God" (John 17:3)."

The verse says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

Where is the figure of speech there? The statement is plain and simple. If you say that the statement "For I have come down from heaven" is a figure of speech, please explain how it is a figure of speech. You can start by telling us what type of figure of speech it is, and show us why you say it is such type. Is it a simile, metaphor, hyperbole, personification, synecdoche, or what?

INCQUISITOR:

"For I came down from heaven," is simply Jesus' another way of saying, "For I proceeded forth and came from God" (John 8:42).

I don't believe Jesus intended to say that he pre-existed in heaven as God. First of all, Jesus acknowledged that he is a MAN (John 8:40). Second of all, Jesus acknowledged that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3).

Therefore, if Jesus did not pre-exist as God, it would have made no sense for Jesus to have pre-existed in heaven as anyone or anything but God.

ME:

So, while you insist that John 6:38 is a figure of speech, you can't even tell what figure of speech it is. I guess, that alone settles the issue here.
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Joined: January 10th, 2004, 7:03 am

May 21st, 2016, 10:53 pm #8

Michael:

John 6:38
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

"I have come down from heaven", Jesus said. Clearly, Jesus came down from heaven. He comes from heaven, and have been sent to the world.

Clearly, this passage speaks of Him as preexisting in heaven before He existed on earth.

Here are some questions to think about:

1. Who was He who came down from heaven? Does He have a name? If so, what is His name in heaven?
2. What was His nature of existence in heaven? Is He invisible and immortal?
3. Who is He relative to God?

Do you believe what Jesus says in this verse?

If not, why not?

If you do, how do you answer the 3 questions above? Do you have answers?

Tomas:

My answers: Yes, I believe totally in what Jesus says in this verse, I believe everything anyone inspired says in the Bible. So if for example Sadducees claimed there is no life after death, I don't believe that, they were not inspired to say that. Or if Pharisees said Jesus committed blasphemy, I don't believe that. But I believe of course everything Jesus said, he is always infallible. And I believe everything that apostles wrote in the Bible, they were inspired. Likewise what prophets of God wrote in the Bible, they were inspired, it is all true.

So my answers to your other questions:
1. Before he came down from heaven, he was already the Word, and the Son of God. When did he become the Christ, already in preexistence, or was he anointed in Mary, I don't know. God anointed him.
Does he have a name? Now his main name is Jesus. Another name of his is Immanuel. He still has those names in heaven. He did not have those names in his preexistence in heaven. Maybe his name was Michael, that would be true if he is the Archangel. Or possibly he did not have any name. Or his preexistence name is not revealed in the Bible.
2. His nature in his preexistence in heaven was probably as a powerful spirit being. Though I can't completely eliminate the possibility of what some Oneness Pentecostals teach, that in his preexistence he was not a person, but a form. Is he invisible and immortal? Now he is. Back then, in his preexistence, if he was a powerful spirit being, he was invisible too. If he was just a form, he was perhaps visible. But he was not immortal, he died later on the cross. But now he won't die again, he is now immortal.
3. Who is He relative to God? If Oneness Pentecostals are right, he is now in a human spiritual glorified body with God formerly incarnate inside, now dwelling inside, since I believe he no longer has flesh. He is therefore God, the only person of the Godhead.
If Trinitarians or Binitarians are right, he is now the second person of the Godhead, with similarly a glorified human body, where the second person was incarnated, and now dwells, since he no longer has flesh.
If Arian churches are right, he is now a powerful spiritual person, with a spiritual body in which the spirit was incarnated and now dwells, and that spiritual person is the second most powerful person in the world, he might be God's holy Archangel.
But regardless of the theories above, he is God's holy Christ, the anointed King of kings, the Word, our Lord. That's who he is relative to God for sure. And he is faithfully and lovingly obedient to God the Father. So that is his obedient relation to God.
So as you can see, I do have answers. And where the Bible provides us with clear answers, I am dogmatic about my answers. Where the Bible provides us at most with possible hints, about what Jesus might be, I am likewise not able to be dogmatic, I can provide only guesses. I expect we will know far more after we are resurrected. Like Paul wrote, now we see through glass darkly, but when the perfect comes, we will know.

ME:

Who was He who came down from heaven?
Your answer: the Word, the Son of God.

Does He have a name? If so, what is His name in heaven?
Your answer: You don't really know.

I agree that it is the Word, the Son of God was Him who came down from heaven. And before He came down from heaven and came to earth, He is called or referred to in scriptures as the Word, the Son of God, the Christ. Certainly, scriptures does not call or refer to Him in the name Michael.

What was His nature of existence in heaven? That you can't really tell. So, you don't know.

Well, as for me, being referred to by John as the Word, that He is spirit in nature.

Is He invisible and immortal? I was referring of course to the time before He came down from heaven. And your answer is that, as to His being invisible or not, you really don't know or can't tell. And as to His being immortal, you say He was not immortal.

As for me, being a spirit, He is invisible. And that He is immortal. His dying later on the cross was not that He was not immortal, but that, because He became a mortal human.

Who is He relative to God? You said "he is God's holy Christ, the anointed King of kings, the Word, our Lord.".

As for me, in relation to God, He is the Son of God.
Michael:

John 6:38
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

"I have come down from heaven", Jesus said. Clearly, Jesus came down from heaven. He comes from heaven, and have been sent to the world.

Clearly, this passage speaks of Him as preexisting in heaven before He existed on earth.

Here are some questions to think about:

1. Who was He who came down from heaven? Does He have a name? If so, what is His name in heaven?
2. What was His nature of existence in heaven? Is He invisible and immortal?
3. Who is He relative to God?

Do you believe what Jesus says in this verse?

If not, why not?

If you do, how do you answer the 3 questions above? Do you have answers?

Tomas:

My answers: Yes, I believe totally in what Jesus says in this verse, I believe everything anyone inspired says in the Bible. So if for example Sadducees claimed there is no life after death, I don't believe that, they were not inspired to say that. Or if Pharisees said Jesus committed blasphemy, I don't believe that. But I believe of course everything Jesus said, he is always infallible. And I believe everything that apostles wrote in the Bible, they were inspired. Likewise what prophets of God wrote in the Bible, they were inspired, it is all true.

So my answers to your other questions:
1. Before he came down from heaven, he was already the Word, and the Son of God. When did he become the Christ, already in preexistence, or was he anointed in Mary, I don't know. God anointed him.
Does he have a name? Now his main name is Jesus. Another name of his is Immanuel. He still has those names in heaven. He did not have those names in his preexistence in heaven. Maybe his name was Michael, that would be true if he is the Archangel. Or possibly he did not have any name. Or his preexistence name is not revealed in the Bible.
2. His nature in his preexistence in heaven was probably as a powerful spirit being. Though I can't completely eliminate the possibility of what some Oneness Pentecostals teach, that in his preexistence he was not a person, but a form. Is he invisible and immortal? Now he is. Back then, in his preexistence, if he was a powerful spirit being, he was invisible too. If he was just a form, he was perhaps visible. But he was not immortal, he died later on the cross. But now he won't die again, he is now immortal.
3. Who is He relative to God? If Oneness Pentecostals are right, he is now in a human spiritual glorified body with God formerly incarnate inside, now dwelling inside, since I believe he no longer has flesh. He is therefore God, the only person of the Godhead.
If Trinitarians or Binitarians are right, he is now the second person of the Godhead, with similarly a glorified human body, where the second person was incarnated, and now dwells, since he no longer has flesh.
If Arian churches are right, he is now a powerful spiritual person, with a spiritual body in which the spirit was incarnated and now dwells, and that spiritual person is the second most powerful person in the world, he might be God's holy Archangel.
But regardless of the theories above, he is God's holy Christ, the anointed King of kings, the Word, our Lord. That's who he is relative to God for sure. And he is faithfully and lovingly obedient to God the Father. So that is his obedient relation to God.
So as you can see, I do have answers. And where the Bible provides us with clear answers, I am dogmatic about my answers. Where the Bible provides us at most with possible hints, about what Jesus might be, I am likewise not able to be dogmatic, I can provide only guesses. I expect we will know far more after we are resurrected. Like Paul wrote, now we see through glass darkly, but when the perfect comes, we will know.

ME:

Who was He who came down from heaven?
Your answer: the Word, the Son of God.

Does He have a name? If so, what is His name in heaven?
Your answer: You don't really know.

I agree that it is the Word, the Son of God was Him who came down from heaven. And before He came down from heaven and came to earth, He is called or referred to in scriptures as the Word, the Son of God, the Christ. Certainly, scriptures does not call or refer to Him in the name Michael.

What was His nature of existence in heaven? That you can't really tell. So, you don't know.

Well, as for me, being referred to by John as the Word, that He is spirit in nature.

Is He invisible and immortal? I was referring of course to the time before He came down from heaven. And your answer is that, as to His being invisible or not, you really don't know or can't tell. And as to His being immortal, you say He was not immortal.

As for me, being a spirit, He is invisible. And that He is immortal. His dying later on the cross was not that He was not immortal, but that, because He became a mortal human.

Who is He relative to God? You said "he is God's holy Christ, the anointed King of kings, the Word, our Lord.".

As for me, in relation to God, He is the Son of God.

Tomas:

Well, of course now Christ has names. But did he have any names before he became incarnated in Mary? The Word, the Son of God, the Christ are titles, not names. So perhaps his name was Michael. He is called in the Old Testament the Prince of Israel. That can fit the Son of God, as the ruler of Israel. Michael is mentioned in the New Testament as coming at the end, right before the resurrection. That can fit the Son of God well. So even if he is God, he might be called Michael. Michael is called the archangel, meaning he rules over the angels. That role can fit the Son of God well.
Now was he visible and immortal, before coming into Mary? As far as being invisible, if he was a spirit, then yes, he was invisible. If he was a form, as some Oneness Pentecostals think, then I guess he was visible. Maybe hidden somewhere, but still potentially visible.
Was he immortal? If he was a person, a spirit, not just a form, then he surely knew he was going to die. Anyone fated to die, is mortal.
And of course I agree that one important thing he is in relation to God, is he is the Son of God. Of course that is not all he is to God. But it is certainly necessary for us to know he is God's Son, without knowing it we can't be saved. So it is vitally important information.
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Joined: May 19th, 2013, 11:04 pm

May 22nd, 2016, 4:17 pm #9

John 6:38 does not speak o Christ as preexisting in heaven.

The Bible says there is only one God (Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Cor. 8:6). The Bible also says that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5).

Therefore, there is no way that Jesus preexisted as God IN ADDITION to the God who SENT him and whose WILL Jesus was sent to do (John 6:38).

Therefore, the idea that John 6:38 speaks of Christ as preexisting in heaven is a TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus said as "coming down from heaven" which, to me, is simply a figure of speech to describe his "coming from God" or being "SENT by God" (John 17:3).

ME:

There is only one God. Jesus is a man. No problem there.

Now, you said "Therefore, the idea that John 6:38 speaks of Christ as preexisting in heaven is a TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus said as "coming down from heaven" which, to me, is simply a figure of speech to describe his "coming from God" or being "SENT by God" (John 17:3)."

The verse says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

Where is the figure of speech there? The statement is plain and simple. If you say that the statement "For I have come down from heaven" is a figure of speech, please explain how it is a figure of speech. You can start by telling us what type of figure of speech it is, and show us why you say it is such type. Is it a simile, metaphor, hyperbole, personification, synecdoche, or what?

INCQUISITOR:

"For I came down from heaven," is simply Jesus' another way of saying, "For I proceeded forth and came from God" (John 8:42).

I don't believe Jesus intended to say that he pre-existed in heaven as God. First of all, Jesus acknowledged that he is a MAN (John 8:40). Second of all, Jesus acknowledged that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3).

Therefore, if Jesus did not pre-exist as God, it would have made no sense for Jesus to have pre-existed in heaven as anyone or anything but God.

ME:

So, while you insist that John 6:38 is a figure of speech, you can't even tell what figure of speech it is. I guess, that alone settles the issue here.
What is important to believe is that Jesus did not pre-exist in heaven as God.

To teach that Jesus pre-existed in heaven as God is FALSE because it makes Jesus a LIAR who said that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3).

Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40). Apostle Paul also says Jesus is a MAN (1 Tim. 2:5; Acts 17:31; Rom. 10:9). The prophet David also says Jesus is a MAN (Psalm 80:17 c.f. Col. 3:1). Jesus says the Father is the ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3). Apostle Paul says there is ONLY ONE God, the Father (Eph. 4:6). The prophet Malachi says ONE God created us all (Mal. 2?:10).

Therefore, to TWIST John 6;38 to mean that Jesus pre-existed as God in heaven is a desperate and futile attempt to make Jesus God.

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Joined: June 29th, 2012, 5:26 pm

May 22nd, 2016, 5:11 pm #10


John 6:38 does not speak o Christ as preexisting in heaven.

The Bible says there is only one God (Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Cor. 8:6). The Bible also says that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5).

Therefore, there is no way that Jesus preexisted as God IN ADDITION to the God who SENT him and whose WILL Jesus was sent to do (John 6:38).

Therefore, the idea that John 6:38 speaks of Christ as preexisting in heaven is a TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus said as "coming down from heaven" which, to me, is simply a figure of speech to describe his "coming from God" or being "SENT by God" (John 17:3).

ME:

There is only one God. Jesus is a man. No problem there.

Now, you said "Therefore, the idea that John 6:38 speaks of Christ as preexisting in heaven is a TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus said as "coming down from heaven" which, to me, is simply a figure of speech to describe his "coming from God" or being "SENT by God" (John 17:3)."

The verse says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

Where is the figure of speech there? The statement is plain and simple. If you say that the statement "For I have come down from heaven" is a figure of speech, please explain how it is a figure of speech. You can start by telling us what type of figure of speech it is, and show us why you say it is such type. Is it a simile, metaphor, hyperbole, personification, synecdoche, or what?

INCQUISITOR:

"For I came down from heaven," is simply Jesus' another way of saying, "For I proceeded forth and came from God" (John 8:42).

I don't believe Jesus intended to say that he pre-existed in heaven as God. First of all, Jesus acknowledged that he is a MAN (John 8:40). Second of all, Jesus acknowledged that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3).

Therefore, if Jesus did not pre-exist as God, it would have made no sense for Jesus to have pre-existed in heaven as anyone or anything but God.

ME:

So, while you insist that John 6:38 is a figure of speech, you can't even tell what figure of speech it is. I guess, that alone settles the issue here.

INCQUISITOR:

What is important to believe is that Jesus did not pre-exist in heaven as God.

To teach that Jesus pre-existed in heaven as God is FALSE because it makes Jesus a LIAR who said that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3).

Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40). Apostle Paul also says Jesus is a MAN (1 Tim. 2:5; Acts 17:31; Rom. 10:9). The prophet David also says Jesus is a MAN (Psalm 80:17 c.f. Col. 3:1). Jesus says the Father is the ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3). Apostle Paul says there is ONLY ONE God, the Father (Eph. 4:6). The prophet Malachi says ONE God created us all (Mal. 2?:10).

Therefore, to TWIST John 6;38 to mean that Jesus pre-existed as God in heaven is a desperate and futile attempt to make Jesus God.

ME:

Of course it is immaterial to you. And that only shows that you are just forcing it to be a figure of speech even when it is not. Obviously, that is your way of explaining the truth about Christ's preexistence in heaven away.

Scriptures has it (not me), that the Lord Jesus Christ said "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

Did the Lord Jesus Christ came down from heaven? Jesus Christ himself said He did. Believing that is faith. Denying that is accusing Jesus Christ to be a liar.

Now, if you are out saying that what Jesus said there is a figure of speech, here is your right and opportunity to defend and prove what it is you say to be true. This is coming from you, not from anyone else, that Jesus is speaking a figure of speech. You said that. So, I ask this simple question, what type of figure of speech is it? If you can't even answer such simple question, then your excuse right here, right now crumbles to pieces and is proven false.

And here's another verse, wherein Jesus said "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? (John 6:62)".
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