The Rogue Experience

The Rogue Experience

Joined: April 24th, 2010, 2:56 am

September 26th, 2011, 5:20 am #1

A couple of days ago I took care of a Rogue ordered through a local airgun dealer here in Puerto Rico. Here is my experience...

Fit and Finish...

The Rogue is very well built. Truth is when I brought it to my shoulder it reminded me of my Dianas TH56s both in weight and feel. There is nothing loose, no rough edges, its just plain sturdy. The magazine clip feels ok but as youll see its quite flawed.

Airgun prep...

Cleaned the barrel with around 12 sets of 3 patches (its a big bore so had to pull three patches at the same time for scrubbing/reaching the barrel wall), First 3 sets came pretty dark progressively lightening till around set 10 to 12. Installed the two AA batteries and after activating the epic display noticed it had a bit over 400 psi in the tank. As I normally do with my other pcps, charged it to 3000 psi very slowly. Loosely installed a Leapers scope and left it alone till testing day at the range a couple of days later (yesterday). No leaks.

Testing the Rogue...

Set up target stands at 50, 75, and 100 yds. Programmed the rogue for 145 high being I had 3 boxes of Noslers for testing. It took around 6 rounds for sighting the scope at 50 yds. It looked promising but then the epic display started showing a message reading critical halt very high psi manually vent the tank. Forgetting I had the manual buried in my shooting box (for looking up something about this particular message), I just refilled at 3000 psi and it started shooting again but kind of randomly, it would stop shooting and the same message keep popping up. I just keep refilling back to 3000 psi thinking the unit message was related inversely to the low side of the valve getting locked for some reason. Anyways and in retrospect just wasted 3 boxes of noslers trying to get it shooting right. I have 200 rounds of Dash Caliber .357 bullets cast for airguns but made all of the initial tests with the noslers for not introducing any stray variable during testing. After checking the rogue users manual error messages appendix, the suggested actions for the displayed message is to either manually vent the tank to depressurize below 3200 ((?) which wasnt the case being it was never pressurized above 3000) or the dreaded return to Crosman for analysis and repair. I tried several epic combinations for the noslers: high, medium, and low settings but had the same results with the rogue epic displaying the same message most of the time after just a few shoots. Did notice that the tank as per the epic display never dropped below 1600psi at any given time. The only way of getting it shooting back was to refill to 3000 psi. At some point during testing it did let me take a couple of 10 or 11 shot strings but most of the time had to refill to reset. One of the strings chrony data follows:

(Nosler 145 high or medium, cant tell for sure but it was from a start fill of 3000 psi. Didnt record ending pressure because of the error message popping up after shoot #11 and that point got distracted)

Count FPS

1- 762.56
2- 772.34
3- 762.32
4- 761.08
5- 749.04
6- 740.72
7- 735.37
8- 717.62
9- 707.23
10- 689.31
11- 672.68

Avg 733.66

Grouping isnt worth talking about especially being the valve/tank pressure sensor (or something else going on?) is giving bad info to the rest of the system. This will definitively have an effect on poi. Not to say I didnt try grouping the best I could, but cant judge accuracy given these facts. At some point it grouped 3 or 4 shots at around 1.5 ctc @ 50 yds, but that was it. Most were quite far off. No testing done @ 75 or 100 yds given the circumstances. It didnt occur to me to move my friends chrony to the lane I was shooting. This could have helped with gauging the effect of fps on poi sans error message. But in hindsight everyone is 20/20

-photo PR Panamerican range airgun buddies, From right to left Ramon, Pedro and myself


-photo big bore airguns in test, Pedro's big bore and the Rogue


The magazine clip...

Ok, the magazine jams a lot and here I am showing why. Take a look at this Crosman mrod, prod, and rogue mag photo from the breech end. From left to right they are all crosman clips: mrod .22 with crosman pointed pellets, prod .22 with predator polymags, and finally the rogue .357 with nosler 145. You can start to see the problem: the rogue clip pellet is not centered for loading. Pellets in the rogue clip are being forced to load sideways:

- Photo 3 mag view


These are close-ups of the mrod and prod clips

- photo close ups mrod1 and prod1




and this is a close-up of the rogue clip:

-photo close-up rogue clip1


This is how the rogue clip pellets look like when ready to be shoved down the breech. I have included for reference photos of pellets showing how the pellet sits at an angle inside the clip as it looks from both sides of the clip (the pellets at an angle outside of the clip to demonstrate how they sit inside the clip):

-photo close-up rogue clip2


-photo close-up rogue clip3


-photo close-up rogue clip4


You see as this gets worse when using flat nosed pellets (note: these are not Benjamin rogue flat nose rogue pellets but the ones I purchased from Dash Caliber which incidentally are top notch. Couldnt get a hold of Benjamins rogue ones but for demonstrating the dynamics of whats going on these do fine)

-photo close-up rogue clip5


-photo close-up rogue clip6


For reference look at the following pics. See how nice and tidy the mrod and prod clips hug the pellets and how loose they are in the rogue clip:

-photo close-up mrod2


-photo close-up prod2


-photo close-up rogue7


I think this is part of the problem. Take another look at the rogue full clip close up; particularly, the pellet in the bottom ready for chambering. Notice how it do sits mid hole although the plastic cover is offset. Not much of a problem being the bolt tip still aims at the center of the pellet and will push it forward, right? But still the pellet is being forced to angle inside the cavity and I believe is because of a feature of the clip rotor itself. Look at the close-up of one of the cavities of the clip rotor:

-photo close-up rogue8a


Please note the slanted lip in the rotor pellet dividing wall (all of the walls have it). Ok, look at this other pic and notice how the pellet ready to be chambered sits in the cavity. That small slanted lip which is now placed above it lets some pellets lean inside of the cavity at an angle making it more prone to jamming when chambered. It looks to me like this slant in the cavity walls is designed to facilitate passage of the bolt through the clip hole when chambering a pellet. It will not catch the top of the dividing wall because the slant will facilitate the bolt sliding through it. Problem is it is causing some pellets to offset at an angle in the chambering hole.

-photo close-up rogue9


-photo close-up rogue10a


Ok, to finalize I want to make a few observations which may prove useful to future customers of the rogue...

First, I was forced to manually feed the chamber of the rogue when the clip problem got kind of worse. I believe the rogue breach assembly can be modified to facilitate manual chambering by just machining the side of the breach a bit (in red):

-photo breach cavity 2a


Also, what about designing a predator polymag type pellet for this rifle? It looks to me that these nosler bullets need much more velocity for really expanding than what the rogue is producing. I addition the magazine clip can be made to accommodate probably one or two more pellets. There is just to much empty space around them and please, tell nosler to improve the quality control/manufacturing of their pellets/bullets. As you can see from the photos, there are quite a few distorted skirts and for their price Nosler should do better.

Second, there should be some form of feedback to let you know status of the system. A mechanical transducer (vibration device) can be fitted if not wanting to incorporate a audible type (for keeping stealthy). Yes, this will need a bit more juice but from what I see it shouldnt be a problem making space for a couple of more batteries inside the unit.


Well... thats my take. Luckily I purchased the Rogue through a local dealer and he has been super. I must also say the Puerto Rico Crosman distributor has also been quite accommodating given the circumstances. The local distributor brought 3 rogues of which mine was the second sold. The first one belonging to a fellow air gunner is doing fine and he has not had any problems so far with it. The dealer has requested from the distributor to exchange mine with the third one and I will be able to test it probably this next Wednesday but of course will need to buy at least a box of noslers just to test again (I hope they are not wasted this time but will initially run with the Dash Caliber lot). I still have high hopes for it; it is well built and indeed has potential, but of course if not accurate and reliable then will wait till it can fulfill its promise.



JSR:.
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Joined: April 15th, 2010, 11:58 am

September 26th, 2011, 2:26 pm #2

The error fault is likely related to a known issue that was discovered late. Our customer service speaks for itself: we'll make it right, just stay in touch.

For those on the sidelines, shooting Nosler's on High will yield 3 shots then the ePIC panel displays "- SHOTS", meaning it will shoot but not at the velocity of the first 3. It will eventually say "CRITICAL HALT VERY LOW PRESSURE, REFILL THE TANK" when air is to low to shoot. On the Medium setting, 11 shots, the number of your string, is about right. If you were mixing it up during the string then seeing the low pressure fault at 11 shots is expected.

The magazine is NOT designed for flat-nose bullets. For the reasons mentioned, the bullets we recommend (see photo below) and sell are tapered or round so as to direct the bullet into the breech. The breech has a larger opening than the opening on the magazine precisely because bullets come out of the magazine off-center. We do offer a single-shot tray for the Rogue:http://www.crosman.com/gear/pcp/SST357 (out of stock at the moment)



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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

September 26th, 2011, 5:47 pm #3


Getting some feedback from a customer, and then response from the corporation is a positive thing from anyone's point of view. I'm sure any issues will be ironed out by Crosman's Customer Service department.

Randy


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Joined: May 10th, 2008, 12:40 pm

September 27th, 2011, 2:57 am #4

The error fault is likely related to a known issue that was discovered late. Our customer service speaks for itself: we'll make it right, just stay in touch.

For those on the sidelines, shooting Nosler's on High will yield 3 shots then the ePIC panel displays "- SHOTS", meaning it will shoot but not at the velocity of the first 3. It will eventually say "CRITICAL HALT VERY LOW PRESSURE, REFILL THE TANK" when air is to low to shoot. On the Medium setting, 11 shots, the number of your string, is about right. If you were mixing it up during the string then seeing the low pressure fault at 11 shots is expected.

The magazine is NOT designed for flat-nose bullets. For the reasons mentioned, the bullets we recommend (see photo below) and sell are tapered or round so as to direct the bullet into the breech. The breech has a larger opening than the opening on the magazine precisely because bullets come out of the magazine off-center. We do offer a single-shot tray for the Rogue:http://www.crosman.com/gear/pcp/SST357 (out of stock at the moment)



http://crosman.com
http://twitter.com/crosmancorp
http://facebook.com/crosmancorp
"The breech has a larger opening than the opening on the magazine precisely because bullets come out of the magazine off-center." (!?!?!)

It's like buying a new Toyota and then the dealer tells you "it comes with a parachute and additional airbags because the brakes will not stop the car in time... however we have an optional extended emergency brake handle available but it's out of stock right now, so good luck and stay in touch ..."

LOL

you're scared ? go get a dog ... I'd rather die standing than live on my knees

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Joined: April 24th, 2010, 2:56 am

September 27th, 2011, 3:24 am #5

Getting some feedback from a customer, and then response from the corporation is a positive thing from anyone's point of view. I'm sure any issues will be ironed out by Crosman's Customer Service department.

Randy


Thxs... indeed the spirit of my post was/is to provide some feedback to the air-gunning population at large and to Crosman. Hope the replacement proves worthy of another round of gun-range testing. Don't get me wrong, I will still be interested in the Rogue platform but would hate being disappointed again... .

JSR:.
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Joined: November 28th, 2002, 6:26 pm

September 27th, 2011, 3:38 am #6

"The breech has a larger opening than the opening on the magazine precisely because bullets come out of the magazine off-center." (!?!?!)

It's like buying a new Toyota and then the dealer tells you "it comes with a parachute and additional airbags because the brakes will not stop the car in time... however we have an optional extended emergency brake handle available but it's out of stock right now, so good luck and stay in touch ..."

LOL

you're scared ? go get a dog ... I'd rather die standing than live on my knees
...some very knowledgable folks have said that solution to poor magazine indexing is a bad idea - a short and direct route to poor accuracy, due to the likelihood of pellet damage.

Therefore...

1, If they're right (and I'm betting they are), and

2. If Crosman thinks they've fixed the Rogue mag problem with an oversized breech entry and aren't planning to ever do anything better, then...

...the Rogue can not be - and (what's worse) will never be - an accurate gun.

Steve
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Joined: September 12th, 2006, 7:49 pm

September 27th, 2011, 4:14 pm #7

The error fault is likely related to a known issue that was discovered late. Our customer service speaks for itself: we'll make it right, just stay in touch.

For those on the sidelines, shooting Nosler's on High will yield 3 shots then the ePIC panel displays "- SHOTS", meaning it will shoot but not at the velocity of the first 3. It will eventually say "CRITICAL HALT VERY LOW PRESSURE, REFILL THE TANK" when air is to low to shoot. On the Medium setting, 11 shots, the number of your string, is about right. If you were mixing it up during the string then seeing the low pressure fault at 11 shots is expected.

The magazine is NOT designed for flat-nose bullets. For the reasons mentioned, the bullets we recommend (see photo below) and sell are tapered or round so as to direct the bullet into the breech. The breech has a larger opening than the opening on the magazine precisely because bullets come out of the magazine off-center. We do offer a single-shot tray for the Rogue:http://www.crosman.com/gear/pcp/SST357 (out of stock at the moment)



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While "CRITICAL HALT VERY LOW PRESSURE, REFILL THE TANK" would make sense after 11 shots, Jaime is saying that the message he is getting is "critical halt very high psi manually vent the tank". I would assume that this is just a programming error.

Also, looking at the photo "close-up rogue9", it appears that the intention is for the pellet to roll into the trough instead of staying stuck in the cavity. Is this happening because the pellet is just a bit too long for the magazine length and is hanging up at the front and rear of the magazine? Perhaps the fact that the other Rogue is doing fine is because of tolerance differences between the 2 magazines or tolerance differences between 2 lots of pellets.

The last thing that I noticed is the skirt deformation of the Nosler pellets. That certainly can't help the accuracy.

Maybe I'm completely wrong about how I think the magazine is supposed to operate, but these are my observations. I read the original post 2 days ago and did not reread it today, so sorry if these things have already been mentioned.
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Joined: April 24th, 2010, 2:56 am

September 27th, 2011, 7:03 pm #8

Yup... I never saw the low "low psi charge..." message and indeed I expect it being is clearly stated in the manual. But then as I mentioned in the mini-report air pressure never dropped to to the minimum (1000psi as per the manual; most of the time the error message started popping up close to 1600psi or randomly higher) . The closest it got to that low pressure was when recording the published 11 shot string through the chrony but again the message that popped up was the critical high pressure one and I forgot to write down that last pressure reading. All the messages in the display where "critical halt - very high psi...etc".

About the noslers, they fit well length wise with room to spare but dance around as you can see in the pics. The pic showing almost flush with the cover just happened. I mean, because of the loose fit it can get locked (by the spring pressure in the rotor) towards the breach end or almost flush with the cover or in between. The dash caliber bullets jammed to the point of not being able to use them in the clip but the noslers also jammed (but of course not as bad). When the noslers got "pinched" rearwards, towards the cover, the angle was most pronounced. The camera depth of field (closeup mode)exaggerates how close the tip of the bullet really is in relation to the exit hole in the clip.

After carefully looking at Chip's pic of the rogue bullets, I think the short hollow point will have even more problems feeding well in this clip. They look like their fit will be even more loose in the magazine to the point of giving the visual impression of fitting even sideways in the clip .

JSR:.
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