The other half of PCPs

The other half of PCPs

Joined: November 17th, 2006, 3:51 am

July 10th, 2012, 6:39 pm #1

This is a kind of a counter-point to many of the PCP posts. Guess because it Is raining and all I have is 22 yards to play inbut I cant be the only guy with range/weather /neighbor limitations.

There is a whole world of PCP shooting in the lower power ranges that get ignored on the boards. Many have suburban back yards, where power and noise are drawbacks. What additions that make for a reasonably quiet 25 foot pound gun make for a VERY quiet 12 foot pound gun.

.177 test gun
As basic a PCP as can be made. Mostly a 2260, HiPac conversion tube, a mystery barrel (that is probably from some RWS or other), a spacer to rise the breech enough to use the fatter barrel, two screw modded trigger, and a bit of smoothing to get it all running uniformly.

[/IMG]

Yes..was fun putting it together and getting it working right. Turned out to have all 4 of the things needed for an accurate PCP.

1. Barrel tested out to be good. Have no idea where it came from, but I will not be spending the $ to get a name-brand barrel.
2. Trigger trips at 1.1 pound with a dead feel. Can go lighter, but this is about right for cold numbed fingers.
3. Valve not modded for power, but evidently the time spent making sure it fit and ran consistently helped.
4. While the tiny air volume does not offer a lot of shots, does offer 25 shots with minimal velocity spread. So I live inside of that sweet spot and do not shoot outside of it (BTW: takes 32 pump strokes to fill from bottom to top of the sweet spot).

One of the bonus features of PCPs seems to be that they stay put. This one was put away a few weeks ago sighted in for the 7.3gr JSBs.

Todays 100 shot tests. 4 good pellets tested, 25 shots per pellet.
[/IMG]

Shot these targets without touching the scope adjustments. Got some up and down changes with pellet weights, but the differences in POI between these pellets is minor (compared to what I get with springers).

WHY A LOWER POWER PCP?

Why lower power?

1. Am shooting at 25-35 yards.
2. Targets are paper, paintballs, or the occasional pest bird.
3. Whatever quiets a high power PCP REALLY quiets a lower power one.
4. Decreased damage to back stops (and lower back stop noise).
5. Shorter danger zone.

Why PCP?

1. Shoot consistently over a wide range of temperatures.
2. Is as stable to point of impact over time.
3. Can be shoot from nearly any position / rest without a major shift in POI.

MSP or SSP?
If there are new designs (or revival of some of the best old designs) in MSP or SSP, will reconsider the PCP launch pad as a back yard gun. Right now, even in its toyish state, the 1377 would be my choice due to decent scope mounting and LDC considerations.but consider, the above 100 shots, at 12 foot pounds per shot, took 128 pump strokes (yeah..a 3 stage pump, but still not all that much effort).

DEFENCE OF LIGHT WEIGHT PELLETS

Long-range pellets are great for long (+50yard) range, but are they really a giant advantage at short range? Am starting to think not.

Short range, the difference in trajectory/windage is pretty small. If the difference in accuracy favors the light weights (or low BC shapes) then use them.

Last edited by gubb33ps on July 10th, 2012, 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 17th, 2010, 3:30 am

July 10th, 2012, 10:46 pm #2

Even lower power levels are found in Canadian non-PAL (under 500 fps) rifles such as the Hatsan AT-44.... 180+ very quiet shots per fill on a 180cc reservoir filled to 200 bar and shot down to just 90 bar.... It is literally "springer quiet" with no add-ons....

Bob
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Joined: May 22nd, 2007, 3:28 pm

July 10th, 2012, 11:13 pm #3

Spent the last two afternoons shooting my stock, freshly rebuilt Crosman 150 at a bean can in the yard. Neither I nor the bean can and gun cared at all that most shots were taken at the low power setting. Almost the same 'WHACK' on impact, same movement on can, almost the same gaping holes and a lot more shots per charge: why not? Just didn't need 975 fps to have a dandy time of it and no ego trips or bragging rights to defend. Works for me.
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Joined: November 17th, 2006, 3:51 am

July 10th, 2012, 11:30 pm #4

..just read 99% of the posts...if it isn't about power, its not about s*&%

Do agree with you...when you can plant a pellet exactly on the "off button", it does the job even if the power seems a bit low to most shooters.
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Joined: December 14th, 2010, 5:08 am

July 11th, 2012, 1:01 am #5

a lot of us strive for both. It's a beautiful thing when they meet ;D
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Joined: November 17th, 2006, 3:51 am

July 11th, 2012, 1:33 am #6

..but there is often a spot where the gun does produce more useable energy per fill...its just not usually when the gun is maxed out.

Have to keep the allowable velocity variation the same for each setting, and that would be as a percent rather than as a fixed number to keep things more even.

So often find things like this

Shots inside of 3% max. velcotiy

50 shots at 5.5 foot pounds = 275 useable foot pounds per fill
36 shots at 8 foot pounds = 288 useable foot pounds per fill
25 shots at 11.8 foot pounds = 295 useable foot pounds per fill
18 shots at 14.8 foot pounds = 267 useable foot pounds per fill
11 shots at 20.2 foot pounds = 222 useable foot pounds per fill

Change the valve configuration and the numbers change, but it does seem that every system has a range at which it works best.

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Joined: March 1st, 2002, 12:22 am

July 11th, 2012, 5:08 am #7

This is a kind of a counter-point to many of the PCP posts. Guess because it Is raining and all I have is 22 yards to play inbut I cant be the only guy with range/weather /neighbor limitations.

There is a whole world of PCP shooting in the lower power ranges that get ignored on the boards. Many have suburban back yards, where power and noise are drawbacks. What additions that make for a reasonably quiet 25 foot pound gun make for a VERY quiet 12 foot pound gun.

.177 test gun
As basic a PCP as can be made. Mostly a 2260, HiPac conversion tube, a mystery barrel (that is probably from some RWS or other), a spacer to rise the breech enough to use the fatter barrel, two screw modded trigger, and a bit of smoothing to get it all running uniformly.

[/IMG]

Yes..was fun putting it together and getting it working right. Turned out to have all 4 of the things needed for an accurate PCP.

1. Barrel tested out to be good. Have no idea where it came from, but I will not be spending the $ to get a name-brand barrel.
2. Trigger trips at 1.1 pound with a dead feel. Can go lighter, but this is about right for cold numbed fingers.
3. Valve not modded for power, but evidently the time spent making sure it fit and ran consistently helped.
4. While the tiny air volume does not offer a lot of shots, does offer 25 shots with minimal velocity spread. So I live inside of that sweet spot and do not shoot outside of it (BTW: takes 32 pump strokes to fill from bottom to top of the sweet spot).

One of the bonus features of PCPs seems to be that they stay put. This one was put away a few weeks ago sighted in for the 7.3gr JSBs.

Todays 100 shot tests. 4 good pellets tested, 25 shots per pellet.
[/IMG]

Shot these targets without touching the scope adjustments. Got some up and down changes with pellet weights, but the differences in POI between these pellets is minor (compared to what I get with springers).

WHY A LOWER POWER PCP?

Why lower power?

1. Am shooting at 25-35 yards.
2. Targets are paper, paintballs, or the occasional pest bird.
3. Whatever quiets a high power PCP REALLY quiets a lower power one.
4. Decreased damage to back stops (and lower back stop noise).
5. Shorter danger zone.

Why PCP?

1. Shoot consistently over a wide range of temperatures.
2. Is as stable to point of impact over time.
3. Can be shoot from nearly any position / rest without a major shift in POI.

MSP or SSP?
If there are new designs (or revival of some of the best old designs) in MSP or SSP, will reconsider the PCP launch pad as a back yard gun. Right now, even in its toyish state, the 1377 would be my choice due to decent scope mounting and LDC considerations.but consider, the above 100 shots, at 12 foot pounds per shot, took 128 pump strokes (yeah..a 3 stage pump, but still not all that much effort).

DEFENCE OF LIGHT WEIGHT PELLETS

Long-range pellets are great for long (+50yard) range, but are they really a giant advantage at short range? Am starting to think not.

Short range, the difference in trajectory/windage is pretty small. If the difference in accuracy favors the light weights (or low BC shapes) then use them.
ITs all the things listed above, its the ability to make it quiet, its about small guns haveing sufficeint energy to cleanly take small critters, its about no recoil or hold sensitivity.

My well chronicled Marauder Pistol upgrade circus act wasnt about power. it was about pushing the p rod just a bit, some power increase, but getting more out of the gun than the factory will.

 


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Joined: April 12th, 2002, 5:26 am

July 11th, 2012, 5:24 am #8

This is a kind of a counter-point to many of the PCP posts. Guess because it Is raining and all I have is 22 yards to play inbut I cant be the only guy with range/weather /neighbor limitations.

There is a whole world of PCP shooting in the lower power ranges that get ignored on the boards. Many have suburban back yards, where power and noise are drawbacks. What additions that make for a reasonably quiet 25 foot pound gun make for a VERY quiet 12 foot pound gun.

.177 test gun
As basic a PCP as can be made. Mostly a 2260, HiPac conversion tube, a mystery barrel (that is probably from some RWS or other), a spacer to rise the breech enough to use the fatter barrel, two screw modded trigger, and a bit of smoothing to get it all running uniformly.

[/IMG]

Yes..was fun putting it together and getting it working right. Turned out to have all 4 of the things needed for an accurate PCP.

1. Barrel tested out to be good. Have no idea where it came from, but I will not be spending the $ to get a name-brand barrel.
2. Trigger trips at 1.1 pound with a dead feel. Can go lighter, but this is about right for cold numbed fingers.
3. Valve not modded for power, but evidently the time spent making sure it fit and ran consistently helped.
4. While the tiny air volume does not offer a lot of shots, does offer 25 shots with minimal velocity spread. So I live inside of that sweet spot and do not shoot outside of it (BTW: takes 32 pump strokes to fill from bottom to top of the sweet spot).

One of the bonus features of PCPs seems to be that they stay put. This one was put away a few weeks ago sighted in for the 7.3gr JSBs.

Todays 100 shot tests. 4 good pellets tested, 25 shots per pellet.
[/IMG]

Shot these targets without touching the scope adjustments. Got some up and down changes with pellet weights, but the differences in POI between these pellets is minor (compared to what I get with springers).

WHY A LOWER POWER PCP?

Why lower power?

1. Am shooting at 25-35 yards.
2. Targets are paper, paintballs, or the occasional pest bird.
3. Whatever quiets a high power PCP REALLY quiets a lower power one.
4. Decreased damage to back stops (and lower back stop noise).
5. Shorter danger zone.

Why PCP?

1. Shoot consistently over a wide range of temperatures.
2. Is as stable to point of impact over time.
3. Can be shoot from nearly any position / rest without a major shift in POI.

MSP or SSP?
If there are new designs (or revival of some of the best old designs) in MSP or SSP, will reconsider the PCP launch pad as a back yard gun. Right now, even in its toyish state, the 1377 would be my choice due to decent scope mounting and LDC considerations.but consider, the above 100 shots, at 12 foot pounds per shot, took 128 pump strokes (yeah..a 3 stage pump, but still not all that much effort).

DEFENCE OF LIGHT WEIGHT PELLETS

Long-range pellets are great for long (+50yard) range, but are they really a giant advantage at short range? Am starting to think not.

Short range, the difference in trajectory/windage is pretty small. If the difference in accuracy favors the light weights (or low BC shapes) then use them.
or even ten, even a small reservoir can give you a lot of shots. I think it's no accident that many of the acknowledged "classic"pcp's, known for accuracy, were 12 ft/lb guns in their original form.
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Joined: February 9th, 2006, 10:35 pm

July 11th, 2012, 11:31 am #9

This is a kind of a counter-point to many of the PCP posts. Guess because it Is raining and all I have is 22 yards to play inbut I cant be the only guy with range/weather /neighbor limitations.

There is a whole world of PCP shooting in the lower power ranges that get ignored on the boards. Many have suburban back yards, where power and noise are drawbacks. What additions that make for a reasonably quiet 25 foot pound gun make for a VERY quiet 12 foot pound gun.

.177 test gun
As basic a PCP as can be made. Mostly a 2260, HiPac conversion tube, a mystery barrel (that is probably from some RWS or other), a spacer to rise the breech enough to use the fatter barrel, two screw modded trigger, and a bit of smoothing to get it all running uniformly.

[/IMG]

Yes..was fun putting it together and getting it working right. Turned out to have all 4 of the things needed for an accurate PCP.

1. Barrel tested out to be good. Have no idea where it came from, but I will not be spending the $ to get a name-brand barrel.
2. Trigger trips at 1.1 pound with a dead feel. Can go lighter, but this is about right for cold numbed fingers.
3. Valve not modded for power, but evidently the time spent making sure it fit and ran consistently helped.
4. While the tiny air volume does not offer a lot of shots, does offer 25 shots with minimal velocity spread. So I live inside of that sweet spot and do not shoot outside of it (BTW: takes 32 pump strokes to fill from bottom to top of the sweet spot).

One of the bonus features of PCPs seems to be that they stay put. This one was put away a few weeks ago sighted in for the 7.3gr JSBs.

Todays 100 shot tests. 4 good pellets tested, 25 shots per pellet.
[/IMG]

Shot these targets without touching the scope adjustments. Got some up and down changes with pellet weights, but the differences in POI between these pellets is minor (compared to what I get with springers).

WHY A LOWER POWER PCP?

Why lower power?

1. Am shooting at 25-35 yards.
2. Targets are paper, paintballs, or the occasional pest bird.
3. Whatever quiets a high power PCP REALLY quiets a lower power one.
4. Decreased damage to back stops (and lower back stop noise).
5. Shorter danger zone.

Why PCP?

1. Shoot consistently over a wide range of temperatures.
2. Is as stable to point of impact over time.
3. Can be shoot from nearly any position / rest without a major shift in POI.

MSP or SSP?
If there are new designs (or revival of some of the best old designs) in MSP or SSP, will reconsider the PCP launch pad as a back yard gun. Right now, even in its toyish state, the 1377 would be my choice due to decent scope mounting and LDC considerations.but consider, the above 100 shots, at 12 foot pounds per shot, took 128 pump strokes (yeah..a 3 stage pump, but still not all that much effort).

DEFENCE OF LIGHT WEIGHT PELLETS

Long-range pellets are great for long (+50yard) range, but are they really a giant advantage at short range? Am starting to think not.

Short range, the difference in trajectory/windage is pretty small. If the difference in accuracy favors the light weights (or low BC shapes) then use them.
For backyard plinking fun I prefer low to mid power. When it works, my 392 will put out about 16fpe on 8 pumps, my dependable old Dan about 14 on 8 pumps, but most of my backyard shooting is done in the 3 to 8 fpe range at 20 yards and under. The old Blue Streak will still spin spinners on only 2 pumps, but you have to aim about 2 inches high even at those short ranges!

 


Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple
- Mikhail Kalashnikov
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Joined: April 23rd, 2012, 11:10 pm

July 11th, 2012, 12:17 pm #10

..just read 99% of the posts...if it isn't about power, its not about s*&%

Do agree with you...when you can plant a pellet exactly on the "off button", it does the job even if the power seems a bit low to most shooters.
Perhaps many ( most ) of the posts are in pursuit of power, but the guys who seem to really know, they are not, and for good reason. Experience !

Back in the day, there was a time I played with shotguns for money.
Real money, payed on the ONE pellet that cut all 4 of the cross hairs on the target.
With ( often ) upwards of $300 payed on a single shot, the definition of "best" applied to the gun takes on a whole 'nother meaning.
Those "in the know" were shooting the lowest powered shells we could find.
Why ?
Consistency. Find the sweet spot, and stay there.
Perhaps oddly, it always seemed to be the lowest powered shells were highest consistency.
It doesn't matter if the guns shoots 1 FPE or 1000 FPE if it can't hit the target.
( funny, methinks I read something like that on this very forum someplace )
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