Humid days and aluminum valves in pump guns

Humid days and aluminum valves in pump guns

Joined: January 4th, 2010, 4:13 am

September 16th, 2011, 1:32 am #1

I've got to give Tim credit he saw this coming:

After reading Tim McMurray's post a while back about valves I decided to take a look at
one of my aluminum 1377 valves and sure enough it was well "ICK" and was not holding
pressure for very long. Fortunately after a good cleaning and waterproofing it is back
and working great. Since then my .22 carbine which was still holding two pumps after a week
started losing air when pumped for shooting. I mean in minutes it dropped enough to cause
the pellet to impact extremely low. Yeah I missed a squirrel.

Today it got the same treatment as the other, as well as being treated to a Mellon flat top
piston. To check both guns I pumped them a given number of pumps and shot an upright 2"x1" at
distance and then pumped the same amount and waited an hour or so, both still held poi at poa.


Just because a pumper with an aluminum valve will hold a couple of pumps of air for days or
weeks don't mean that it won't leak at higher pressure. If you don't have a chrony shoot it
once to check point of impact, then pump it up, don't load it yet let it sit for an hour or so
and then load it and shoot from the same distance to see if still hits as high as you would
expect when shooting at a normal rate of fire. With a chrony just check fps on two shots one
with a long wait after pumping. Especially important with hunting guns.

I hope this helps someone/
And Thanks again Tim


I BRAKE FOR BISCUITS
and TRAINS
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Joined: November 14th, 2002, 6:27 pm

September 16th, 2011, 2:42 am #2

Secret Sauce really does an amazing job of throwing the nasties out with the air charge.
Long term these aluminum valves will require some pretty deliberate maintenance or the Valve will be a little like a disposable filter you change out every so many rounds.
When they get real bad you cannot separate the halves. Toast.
Since I give the sauce with the gun all the customer has to do is use it. If he doesn't and I have to do all the valve work again because it got killed It will be one year only on that kinda stuff. You can look at running your airgun out of oil exactly like it was a car. Do it and it will get trashed. With Brass valves all you lose is the exhaust valve from a rusty valve spring.
Heavy users in hummid environments and unlubed pump pnuematics are most at risk.



"NO GUNS WOULD BE A RIOT"

Later

Tim

Mac1 Airgun


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Joined: February 25th, 2011, 10:27 pm

September 16th, 2011, 3:05 am #3

I usually lube my guns after every use... How much lube should be applied for storage...? Two of my pump guns have the aluminum valves... Is two drops enough followed by a couple of dry fires? (I know we're not talking about spring rifles here.) Then, one more drop before the two storage pumps...?
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Joined: January 4th, 2010, 4:13 am

September 16th, 2011, 3:55 am #4

I have only heard good things about Tim's Secret Sauce, but haven't started using it yet.

I guess brass or stainless is the ultimate answer or just do the extra maintenance. After two years one of
my pumpers valve almost didn't unscrew, and its not like I have ignored it, I have been adding air tool oil
but not directly into the valve, not wanting the dieseling effect and smoke.

I think my leak was at the oring between the valve halves. At least that was the worst looking spot when I
finally got it apart. Meanwhile I plan on tear downs every 6 months or so. I don't mind doing that but a
better valve body material would be nice.


I BRAKE FOR BISCUITS
and TRAINS
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Joined: June 25th, 2002, 1:34 pm

September 16th, 2011, 2:26 pm #5

Secret Sauce really does an amazing job of throwing the nasties out with the air charge.
Long term these aluminum valves will require some pretty deliberate maintenance or the Valve will be a little like a disposable filter you change out every so many rounds.
When they get real bad you cannot separate the halves. Toast.
Since I give the sauce with the gun all the customer has to do is use it. If he doesn't and I have to do all the valve work again because it got killed It will be one year only on that kinda stuff. You can look at running your airgun out of oil exactly like it was a car. Do it and it will get trashed. With Brass valves all you lose is the exhaust valve from a rusty valve spring.
Heavy users in hummid environments and unlubed pump pnuematics are most at risk.



"NO GUNS WOULD BE A RIOT"

Later

Tim

Mac1 Airgun

n/t
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Joined: February 9th, 2006, 10:35 pm

September 16th, 2011, 4:37 pm #6

I've got to give Tim credit he saw this coming:

After reading Tim McMurray's post a while back about valves I decided to take a look at
one of my aluminum 1377 valves and sure enough it was well "ICK" and was not holding
pressure for very long. Fortunately after a good cleaning and waterproofing it is back
and working great. Since then my .22 carbine which was still holding two pumps after a week
started losing air when pumped for shooting. I mean in minutes it dropped enough to cause
the pellet to impact extremely low. Yeah I missed a squirrel.

Today it got the same treatment as the other, as well as being treated to a Mellon flat top
piston. To check both guns I pumped them a given number of pumps and shot an upright 2"x1" at
distance and then pumped the same amount and waited an hour or so, both still held poi at poa.


Just because a pumper with an aluminum valve will hold a couple of pumps of air for days or
weeks don't mean that it won't leak at higher pressure. If you don't have a chrony shoot it
once to check point of impact, then pump it up, don't load it yet let it sit for an hour or so
and then load it and shoot from the same distance to see if still hits as high as you would
expect when shooting at a normal rate of fire. With a chrony just check fps on two shots one
with a long wait after pumping. Especially important with hunting guns.

I hope this helps someone/
And Thanks again Tim


I BRAKE FOR BISCUITS
and TRAINS
I don't go out to shoot much when humid as I find it hard to breathe myself. I fgure if I can't breathe in all that moisture, I sure don't wanna mess up a good pumper.

If I shoot outdoors in the humidity at all I grab a springer and save the good stuff for nicer days! I figure it's days like that they invented springers for anyhow.

After losing one 392 valve to corrosion I check the lube every time before I use one of my pumpers, even the old ones without aluminum valves, and give them some fresh 30wt ND oil if needed. I probably ought to take a crowbar to my billfold and pry out some money for a bottle of Secret Sauce.

I plink, therefore I am.
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Joined: September 23rd, 2002, 6:16 pm

September 16th, 2011, 8:03 pm #7

n/t
would be my choice
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Joined: November 19th, 2004, 4:39 am

September 16th, 2011, 9:09 pm #8

I don't go out to shoot much when humid as I find it hard to breathe myself. I fgure if I can't breathe in all that moisture, I sure don't wanna mess up a good pumper.

If I shoot outdoors in the humidity at all I grab a springer and save the good stuff for nicer days! I figure it's days like that they invented springers for anyhow.

After losing one 392 valve to corrosion I check the lube every time before I use one of my pumpers, even the old ones without aluminum valves, and give them some fresh 30wt ND oil if needed. I probably ought to take a crowbar to my billfold and pry out some money for a bottle of Secret Sauce.

I plink, therefore I am.
I was surprised with a bag full of aluminum valves from crosman with no notice as to the change from brass to aluminum thats been what 4 years now? Anyway Ive seen absolutely no corrosion or build up at all NONE on any of my guns.

All I do is oil the valve by way of the rubber oil wiper.
And its no secret all I use is AGS Airgun OIL.
<img border="0" src="http://www.airgunsmith.com/gunlube/agoil.JPG" width="297" height="218" alt="agoil.JPG">

I shoot my 1377 and 1322 all year I put hundreds of pellets thru each gun including the 392 and 397 I stopped counting when I s gave away my macho ego.

This year has been extremely humid and wet and there all clean as a SS whistle, theres no real secret to keeping aluminum from corroding just a drop of oil every so often is all it takes No biggy.
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Joined: January 4th, 2010, 4:13 am

September 17th, 2011, 2:12 am #9

I've got to give Tim credit he saw this coming:

After reading Tim McMurray's post a while back about valves I decided to take a look at
one of my aluminum 1377 valves and sure enough it was well "ICK" and was not holding
pressure for very long. Fortunately after a good cleaning and waterproofing it is back
and working great. Since then my .22 carbine which was still holding two pumps after a week
started losing air when pumped for shooting. I mean in minutes it dropped enough to cause
the pellet to impact extremely low. Yeah I missed a squirrel.

Today it got the same treatment as the other, as well as being treated to a Mellon flat top
piston. To check both guns I pumped them a given number of pumps and shot an upright 2"x1" at
distance and then pumped the same amount and waited an hour or so, both still held poi at poa.


Just because a pumper with an aluminum valve will hold a couple of pumps of air for days or
weeks don't mean that it won't leak at higher pressure. If you don't have a chrony shoot it
once to check point of impact, then pump it up, don't load it yet let it sit for an hour or so
and then load it and shoot from the same distance to see if still hits as high as you would
expect when shooting at a normal rate of fire. With a chrony just check fps on two shots one
with a long wait after pumping. Especially important with hunting guns.

I hope this helps someone/
And Thanks again Tim


I BRAKE FOR BISCUITS
and TRAINS
Having read all the post for the last year of so of the horrors of oily valves, dieseling, loss of
accuracy,etc. I ignored the logic that aluminum without protection does bad things, and I let the
innards of my aluminum valves suffer. I guess that the oil I did put behind the pump seal wasn't
enough after all. Then Tim stepped up with the voice of reason and experience and made me look.

I BRAKE FOR BISCUITS
and TRAINS
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Joined: November 19th, 2004, 4:39 am

September 17th, 2011, 3:40 am #10

Quality and volume need to be taken into consideration.

As a gunsmith apprentice way back in 1981 we used to call them happy oiler-ers,
They are folks that use way too much oil,

In the old old days when oil was of poor quality it seems it was necessary to continually
Oil to keep thing from grinding but as the oil got better it took fewer and fewer oiling sessions to achieve the same protection as twice the volume of oil.

Take in to consideration the old leather airgun seal it seems it had to be oil every time the gun was shot and when the gun with a leather seal would sit unused it would dry up then the seal would need to be soaked, now days with the new seals and oil/lubes you only need to lube the seal one time for the life of the seal or spring which ever happens to need replacement first, then when you replace the seal or the spring its time for more lube.

Quality oil = less lubrication
Less quality = more lubrication

Good airgun oil will keep moisture above the surface of the valve/aluminum
OR (repel) moisture from the surface this allows the process of low or high pressure exhaust to expel any and all moisture that has collected within the valve,

Mind you if the valve was properly lubed upon assembly or coated with proper oil that is impregnated with aluminum protectants you will never see any sign that the gun has processed moisture. The only thing left to do is to keep a very small amount of lube processing through the gun/valve.

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Last edited by ratite on September 17th, 2011, 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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