Brainstorming on the rebirth of pumpers

dan_house · May 21st, 2012, 11:10 pm #1 2012-05-21T23:10

(just bringing it up....)

Short of the Independence (which, IMHO, is a pcp with a pump...), trouble with any kind of resurgence of them is its old, er um ah, proven,technology, and not easily setup for creative innovations.

Gross oversimplification of course, but we see limitation on almost every pumper platform out there: 39x/BenShers have a barrel soldered to the pump tube, 22xx/13xx/760 pumper platforms are underpowered, the 2100/2200 are internally complicated, and you get the idea (or not, but Ive run out of immediate examples...)

I'll only speak for me, but I think for pumpers to experience a reemergence, couple things have to happen: first is a new platform has to emerge. First it must be easily modded by folks on the kitchen table, with modular components.(and of course wildy moddable by those with the skills and tools:

) Second is its going to have to generate some power with a minimum of pumping between shots.

I think we can use some of the current crosman offereings (breeches, barrels etc) but still a pump setup that generates the power it will take. Me? I'm one of the sedentary airgunners that doesnt llike to pump, but I do cuz I like pumpers. I will make the effort though if it gets me more power and or less strokes after charging the AC platform.

I dont really see a way around the AC bit, and that might be the key.

dr_subsonic's pneumatic research lab

the Lunatic Fringe of American Airgunning
Southwest Montana's headquarters for Airgunning Supremacy
Proud Sponsor of team_subsonic

breakfastchef · May 22nd, 2012, 12:24 am #2 2012-05-22T00:24

I agree that the Independence is a great gun that brings air conservation to the masses (with $1800 to spend). This is the new benchmark.

Unless you are constantly seeking power and shooting over a chrony everytime you fiddle about with a gun, the 13xx pistols are terrific pumpers. They won't create 25fpe, but they usually shoot accurately and can shoot pretty hard with readily available parts/accessories.

robnewyork · May 22nd, 2012, 1:11 am #3 2012-05-22T01:11

(just bringing it up....)

Short of the Independence (which, IMHO, is a pcp with a pump...), trouble with any kind of resurgence of them is its old, er um ah, proven,technology, and not easily setup for creative innovations.

Gross oversimplification of course, but we see limitation on almost every pumper platform out there: 39x/BenShers have a barrel soldered to the pump tube, 22xx/13xx/760 pumper platforms are underpowered, the 2100/2200 are internally complicated, and you get the idea (or not, but Ive run out of immediate examples...)

I'll only speak for me, but I think for pumpers to experience a reemergence, couple things have to happen: first is a new platform has to emerge. First it must be easily modded by folks on the kitchen table, with modular components.(and of course wildy moddable by those with the skills and tools: ) Second is its going to have to generate some power with a minimum of pumping between shots.

I think we can use some of the current crosman offereings (breeches, barrels etc) but still a pump setup that generates the power it will take. Me? I'm one of the sedentary airgunners that doesnt llike to pump, but I do cuz I like pumpers. I will make the effort though if it gets me more power and or less strokes after charging the AC platform.

I dont really see a way around the AC bit, and that might be the key.

dr_subsonic's pneumatic research lab

the Lunatic Fringe of American Airgunning
Southwest Montana's headquarters for Airgunning Supremacy
Proud Sponsor of team_subsonic

classicalgas · May 22nd, 2012, 5:17 am #4 2012-05-22T05:17

(just bringing it up....)

Short of the Independence (which, IMHO, is a pcp with a pump...), trouble with any kind of resurgence of them is its old, er um ah, proven,technology, and not easily setup for creative innovations.

Gross oversimplification of course, but we see limitation on almost every pumper platform out there: 39x/BenShers have a barrel soldered to the pump tube, 22xx/13xx/760 pumper platforms are underpowered, the 2100/2200 are internally complicated, and you get the idea (or not, but Ive run out of immediate examples...)

I'll only speak for me, but I think for pumpers to experience a reemergence, couple things have to happen: first is a new platform has to emerge. First it must be easily modded by folks on the kitchen table, with modular components.(and of course wildy moddable by those with the skills and tools: ) Second is its going to have to generate some power with a minimum of pumping between shots.

I think we can use some of the current crosman offereings (breeches, barrels etc) but still a pump setup that generates the power it will take. Me? I'm one of the sedentary airgunners that doesnt llike to pump, but I do cuz I like pumpers. I will make the effort though if it gets me more power and or less strokes after charging the AC platform.

I dont really see a way around the AC bit, and that might be the key.

dr_subsonic's pneumatic research lab

the Lunatic Fringe of American Airgunning
Southwest Montana's headquarters for Airgunning Supremacy
Proud Sponsor of team_subsonic

Is it the external charge port that makes it a PCP? Or are most pumpers just wasteful PCP's that empty their entire reservoirs with each shot, and need a pump on board to make them useable?

The physics of a pumper are as rigidly restrictive of maximum efficiency as are those governing a springer..and considerably tougher, since we lose much of the energy we put in , as heat, and don't get a fuel burn boost. AC operation lets us recover a little bit of that(ambient heat leaks into the reservoir, cooled with each shot)

We also get a higher average pressure at the pellet skirt than a full dump gun at the same charge pressure...that's where most of the efficiency gains come from.

There are some places a little more can be gained..in low lost volume pumps, low friction seals, and clean flow paths. I think a swivel breach pumper, with a valve set up for an S-curve flow path would gain efficiency over the typical stacked tube, 180 degree flow path.

Adding complex pump linkages is the wrong road to go down, IMO. Weight and bulk take away much of the pumpers advantages over other types..the Paradigm, Independence, and older designs like the Dragon don't appeal to me... bulk and weight are the primary reasons. I bet I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Sure, some PCP's weigh in at 8-9 pounds... but you might as well drag around a magnum springer at that point.

There have been schemes for two stage and stacked compression pumps posted here in the past. If those could be implemented without adding much weight or bulk,that might be useful. Ideally,IMO, the "Millennium" pumper would be under seven pounds and no more than 38 inches long.

oo7fuzz · May 22nd, 2012, 11:35 am #5 2012-05-22T11:35

(just bringing it up....)

Short of the Independence (which, IMHO, is a pcp with a pump...), trouble with any kind of resurgence of them is its old, er um ah, proven,technology, and not easily setup for creative innovations.

Gross oversimplification of course, but we see limitation on almost every pumper platform out there: 39x/BenShers have a barrel soldered to the pump tube, 22xx/13xx/760 pumper platforms are underpowered, the 2100/2200 are internally complicated, and you get the idea (or not, but Ive run out of immediate examples...)

I'll only speak for me, but I think for pumpers to experience a reemergence, couple things have to happen: first is a new platform has to emerge. First it must be easily modded by folks on the kitchen table, with modular components.(and of course wildy moddable by those with the skills and tools: ) Second is its going to have to generate some power with a minimum of pumping between shots.

I think we can use some of the current crosman offereings (breeches, barrels etc) but still a pump setup that generates the power it will take. Me? I'm one of the sedentary airgunners that doesnt llike to pump, but I do cuz I like pumpers. I will make the effort though if it gets me more power and or less strokes after charging the AC platform.

I dont really see a way around the AC bit, and that might be the key.

dr_subsonic's pneumatic research lab

the Lunatic Fringe of American Airgunning
Southwest Montana's headquarters for Airgunning Supremacy
Proud Sponsor of team_subsonic

...a supercharged pumper.

Ultimately of AC design but but equally as advantageous as a MSP or even as a SSP.

oo7fuzz · May 22nd, 2012, 11:45 am #6 2012-05-22T11:45

.... a much smaller piston diameter and increased stroke length but supercharged would accomplish same as elaborate linkage......or maybe even better.

airgunandy · May 22nd, 2012, 12:25 pm #7 2012-05-22T12:25

(just bringing it up....)

Short of the Independence (which, IMHO, is a pcp with a pump...), trouble with any kind of resurgence of them is its old, er um ah, proven,technology, and not easily setup for creative innovations.

Gross oversimplification of course, but we see limitation on almost every pumper platform out there: 39x/BenShers have a barrel soldered to the pump tube, 22xx/13xx/760 pumper platforms are underpowered, the 2100/2200 are internally complicated, and you get the idea (or not, but Ive run out of immediate examples...)

I'll only speak for me, but I think for pumpers to experience a reemergence, couple things have to happen: first is a new platform has to emerge. First it must be easily modded by folks on the kitchen table, with modular components.(and of course wildy moddable by those with the skills and tools: ) Second is its going to have to generate some power with a minimum of pumping between shots.

I think we can use some of the current crosman offereings (breeches, barrels etc) but still a pump setup that generates the power it will take. Me? I'm one of the sedentary airgunners that doesnt llike to pump, but I do cuz I like pumpers. I will make the effort though if it gets me more power and or less strokes after charging the AC platform.

I dont really see a way around the AC bit, and that might be the key.

dr_subsonic's pneumatic research lab

the Lunatic Fringe of American Airgunning
Southwest Montana's headquarters for Airgunning Supremacy
Proud Sponsor of team_subsonic

I think part of the stigma today of the multi-pump (besides people having to actually work for each shot) is the way Crosman and Daisy have marketed them over the last couple of decades or so. A lot of the older pumpers were built to about the same standards as good .22 rimfire rifles. Most of the old school rifles had really nice triggers too. Today we have nearly all plastic "toys" like the 880, 760 and yes, even the M4-177. The Benjamin/Sheridan pumper offerings today are a fading shadow of the old companies' products.

We need to bring back the quality and maybe even some of the features of the past pumpers and blend it with new technology like modular construction. I agree with Scot, 38" and under and as light as possible is part of what makes a good pumper (or any kind of rifle in my book). I like the idea of AC too. Steve's "two speed" 392AC idea is pretty cool too (2 or 3 low power shots between pumps or one high power shot between pumps). Some folks like repeaters and air conserving technology would go a long way to make a magazine really shine on a pumper. My old 102 has a 20 round magazine. If I only had to pump every other shot or so it would make the mag that much handier. I'm sorry, I like tube magazines, both on airguns and "real" guns. A 21st century air rifle with a magazine and loading mechanism that has roots in the legendary Giradoni rifle would be way cool in my book!

Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple - Mikhail Kalashnikov

curt44319 · May 22nd, 2012, 12:55 pm #8 2012-05-22T12:55

(just bringing it up....)

Short of the Independence (which, IMHO, is a pcp with a pump...), trouble with any kind of resurgence of them is its old, er um ah, proven,technology, and not easily setup for creative innovations.

Gross oversimplification of course, but we see limitation on almost every pumper platform out there: 39x/BenShers have a barrel soldered to the pump tube, 22xx/13xx/760 pumper platforms are underpowered, the 2100/2200 are internally complicated, and you get the idea (or not, but Ive run out of immediate examples...)

I'll only speak for me, but I think for pumpers to experience a reemergence, couple things have to happen: first is a new platform has to emerge. First it must be easily modded by folks on the kitchen table, with modular components.(and of course wildy moddable by those with the skills and tools: ) Second is its going to have to generate some power with a minimum of pumping between shots.

I think we can use some of the current crosman offereings (breeches, barrels etc) but still a pump setup that generates the power it will take. Me? I'm one of the sedentary airgunners that doesnt llike to pump, but I do cuz I like pumpers. I will make the effort though if it gets me more power and or less strokes after charging the AC platform.

I dont really see a way around the AC bit, and that might be the key.

dr_subsonic's pneumatic research lab

the Lunatic Fringe of American Airgunning
Southwest Montana's headquarters for Airgunning Supremacy
Proud Sponsor of team_subsonic

The limitation from forever, is diminishing returns.
Much higher pressures are possible, with many more pumps.
Higher volume likewise, also with many more pumps.
Reducing pumping effort, with more pumps, and more loss, so even more pumps.
Fewer pumps, but with much more pumping effort.

All of these can be done, and are, but at what point does one simply decide it just isn't worth it ?

A stock Crosman is probably already at 90% or better of what might be done, so how much can be accomplished beyond that ? At what cost ? ( cost including both $$ and effort )

Just a guess, but I'd expect about the best that could be imagined would be a PCP with it's own built-in recharge pump, such that one could either pre-charge from a bottle, or pump it 1000 strokes, and then settle for a half dozen or so re-charge pumps per shot.

My favorite, and much to my surprise, has become my 1322.
It can develop close to 15 foot pounds impact energy at 40 feet with 18 pumps or so, but it gets shot with typically two pumps at 40 feet for targets.
I know I can get more out, but with more in. At what point does one just say "enough" ??

robnewyork · May 22nd, 2012, 1:31 pm #9 2012-05-22T13:31

.... a much smaller piston diameter and increased stroke length but supercharged would accomplish same as elaborate linkage......or maybe even better.

VAFarmer · May 22nd, 2012, 1:48 pm #10 2012-05-22T13:48

(just bringing it up....)

Short of the Independence (which, IMHO, is a pcp with a pump...), trouble with any kind of resurgence of them is its old, er um ah, proven,technology, and not easily setup for creative innovations.

Gross oversimplification of course, but we see limitation on almost every pumper platform out there: 39x/BenShers have a barrel soldered to the pump tube, 22xx/13xx/760 pumper platforms are underpowered, the 2100/2200 are internally complicated, and you get the idea (or not, but Ive run out of immediate examples...)

I'll only speak for me, but I think for pumpers to experience a reemergence, couple things have to happen: first is a new platform has to emerge. First it must be easily modded by folks on the kitchen table, with modular components.(and of course wildy moddable by those with the skills and tools: ) Second is its going to have to generate some power with a minimum of pumping between shots.

I think we can use some of the current crosman offereings (breeches, barrels etc) but still a pump setup that generates the power it will take. Me? I'm one of the sedentary airgunners that doesnt llike to pump, but I do cuz I like pumpers. I will make the effort though if it gets me more power and or less strokes after charging the AC platform.

I dont really see a way around the AC bit, and that might be the key.

dr_subsonic's pneumatic research lab

the Lunatic Fringe of American Airgunning
Southwest Montana's headquarters for Airgunning Supremacy
Proud Sponsor of team_subsonic

would be putting out, or lets say could be.

How hard would it be for Benjamin(Crosman) to add a larger tube/valve....that would take say 20-30 pumps to charge...c'mon now!!! Really, pumping that many times is NOT that bad...you are doing it with a pcp, which is a regulated, ACP with an external pump that you have to carry around.

Maybe get air where you could, shorten the stroke, beef up the mechanism. Larger diameter valve and tube.
Incorporate good technology like Steve's HDD and ACP idea. Put out 25 ftlbs at the muzzle for 2 shots, then maybe 5-10 to recharge.
Add a fill port, so a pony bottle can get someone started, or can be carried like is done with a pcp. But for those REALLY hunting, or hikers, who wont be wasting shots..this is perfect.

What is the difference between a pcp and this concept, except you do alot more pumping all at once with the pcp.

What would be ideal is to get 7 shots(normal old .22 rimfire clip capacity), at 25 ftlbs then 30 to 50 stokes in between. Would get old, you say? Not if you packed that 5.5 lb rifle in with 100 pellets for a couple weeks. Pump it at night, before you break camp in the morning, or at lunch. Fire it when you need it. Fill from a tank when plinking.

Definitely a "niche" rifle. Todays pcps will give 50-70 good shots.
This is more of a long term, light traveling hunting setup.
I like the ideas.

God bless,

Farmer