What are your feelings on Brafreedom/topfreedom?

What are your feelings on Brafreedom/topfreedom?

Joined: October 7th, 2002, 1:45 am

October 7th, 2002, 2:21 am #1

I know this sounds like a silly question given the same of the forum, but given the recent flame wars I though it might be nice to get everyone's cards on the table. I think everyone who reads my post knows all of mine but I'll go ahead and put it all in one place.

I don't like the fact that our society has turned the bra into a necessity for any female over 12 even if we are small breasted like me. If a woman wants to wear one because she thinks it makes her look better or more proper or whatever that's fine but why look down at those who don't want to, even if they have large breasts.

I was raised in a nudist family so I believe in topfreedom. I have some ideas about nudity as well but they are for another forum. Our society thinks that genitals should be covered in public and I think that they should be made aware that breasts are not genitals, simply secondary sex characteristics. The US is way behind the rest of the western world as far as topfreedom goes (check out France, Spain, Holland, Norway, or even Canada where women just gained the right to be topfree) Nudism is not mainstream in those cultures either but topfree acceptance sure is. NOTE: By topfree acceptance I mean that I don't care if anyone else takes off their top or not, only that they don't try to have me arrested if I do.

Some states have laws about indecent exposure that don't mention breasts as being illegal to bare and I support the women who want to exercise their rights under those laws. Go here if you want to see what I mean. You won't find any exhibitionists here but will find many political activists:
http://www.tera.ca/

Also I don't have any objections to children being exposed to topfreedom. I don't think it's a sexual thing at all; nor do I think that it is simply something that probably won't do any harm to them. I think that children being exposed to topfreedom is good for them. If boy grow up seeing breasts in nonsexual situations (like the aforementioned beach and pool.) they won't come to fetishise the breasts the way that so many American men do. They will come to see breasts as just another part of the body like legs, tummies, arms and faces. I think that if girls grew up seeing real women's breasts more often they would have a better image of their own bodies because they would realize that most women don't have the perfect breasts of movies and print or that women use wonder bras to pretend that they have. If more women had positive body images they might not resort to spending thousand of dollars on health risking plastic surgery.
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Eefje
Eefje

October 7th, 2002, 7:36 am #2

I have put my cards on the table so many times but that doesn't lead anywhere. I have said it before: I never feel that there is any interaction on the forum. Most people - esp women - ignore the messages: very strange I think that no woman shows any interest in bra- and topfreedom by fellow women in other countries. Nor are they interested in the opinions on bra- and topfreedom by their US fellow women. There is a sphere of insulting and picking. Some are real fanatics who lack any common sense, I think. They blow the issue into enormous proportions, talking about racist and gay issues. Then there are the ones who are not interested in anyone or anything: they only talk about themselves being topless in strange situations: in cars or shops.
I have never felt I was repeating myself so much as on bff. I have posted so many messages and questions over here. Hardly ever any response. It makes me sad.
I will put my cards on the table one more time: nudism is allowed in my country in special areas; topfree sunbathing is allowed on beach, park and poolareas: areas where people sunbathe and relax, not indoor pools. I fully agree with that. I will go topfree or nude only when it's allowed and when I don't disrespect others or their religious views. I go topfree in other countries in tourist areas when it's allowed, not outside if it's not allowed or not respected because of religion. I have no intention or need of going topfree in other occasions than sunbathing. Driving topfree, going topfree in shops, or any other situation of being topfree in public is ridiculous. I have called it indecent behavior. I know men who seem to do it, esp American, but they are not my cup of tea. Brafree is fine with me but for brafreedom goes the same as for topfreedom: decency, dress decent. Brafree doesn't mean you have to show everything. By playing my cards I have never had any trouble - only respect. I can emphasize this over and over again - that's why I am very much again those exhibionists - act with decency and in respect. Then you will get respect.
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MM
MM

October 7th, 2002, 8:03 am #3

I know this sounds like a silly question given the same of the forum, but given the recent flame wars I though it might be nice to get everyone's cards on the table. I think everyone who reads my post knows all of mine but I'll go ahead and put it all in one place.

I don't like the fact that our society has turned the bra into a necessity for any female over 12 even if we are small breasted like me. If a woman wants to wear one because she thinks it makes her look better or more proper or whatever that's fine but why look down at those who don't want to, even if they have large breasts.

I was raised in a nudist family so I believe in topfreedom. I have some ideas about nudity as well but they are for another forum. Our society thinks that genitals should be covered in public and I think that they should be made aware that breasts are not genitals, simply secondary sex characteristics. The US is way behind the rest of the western world as far as topfreedom goes (check out France, Spain, Holland, Norway, or even Canada where women just gained the right to be topfree) Nudism is not mainstream in those cultures either but topfree acceptance sure is. NOTE: By topfree acceptance I mean that I don't care if anyone else takes off their top or not, only that they don't try to have me arrested if I do.

Some states have laws about indecent exposure that don't mention breasts as being illegal to bare and I support the women who want to exercise their rights under those laws. Go here if you want to see what I mean. You won't find any exhibitionists here but will find many political activists:
http://www.tera.ca/

Also I don't have any objections to children being exposed to topfreedom. I don't think it's a sexual thing at all; nor do I think that it is simply something that probably won't do any harm to them. I think that children being exposed to topfreedom is good for them. If boy grow up seeing breasts in nonsexual situations (like the aforementioned beach and pool.) they won't come to fetishise the breasts the way that so many American men do. They will come to see breasts as just another part of the body like legs, tummies, arms and faces. I think that if girls grew up seeing real women's breasts more often they would have a better image of their own bodies because they would realize that most women don't have the perfect breasts of movies and print or that women use wonder bras to pretend that they have. If more women had positive body images they might not resort to spending thousand of dollars on health risking plastic surgery.
Maybe we can sort the reactions to this mail and see who should be a real participant of bff. Only fundamental answers with content. No inadequate comparisons. How about that? I myself will support topfreedom on clothes optional beaches. If women want more of those beaches, I support that. Nudism is fine in nudist parks, beaches. Then people know what to expect. Otherwise I do not see why we should offend others. Brafreedom is fine if women want that. I don't know if it is always comfortable.
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Eefje
Eefje

October 7th, 2002, 8:09 am #4

I fully support your idea. Only messages with content ! And only messages that react with content to that content ! See what we can get: maybe a statute or action plan for bra- and topfreedom for women !
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Jennifer
Jennifer

October 7th, 2002, 9:55 am #5

I know this sounds like a silly question given the same of the forum, but given the recent flame wars I though it might be nice to get everyone's cards on the table. I think everyone who reads my post knows all of mine but I'll go ahead and put it all in one place.

I don't like the fact that our society has turned the bra into a necessity for any female over 12 even if we are small breasted like me. If a woman wants to wear one because she thinks it makes her look better or more proper or whatever that's fine but why look down at those who don't want to, even if they have large breasts.

I was raised in a nudist family so I believe in topfreedom. I have some ideas about nudity as well but they are for another forum. Our society thinks that genitals should be covered in public and I think that they should be made aware that breasts are not genitals, simply secondary sex characteristics. The US is way behind the rest of the western world as far as topfreedom goes (check out France, Spain, Holland, Norway, or even Canada where women just gained the right to be topfree) Nudism is not mainstream in those cultures either but topfree acceptance sure is. NOTE: By topfree acceptance I mean that I don't care if anyone else takes off their top or not, only that they don't try to have me arrested if I do.

Some states have laws about indecent exposure that don't mention breasts as being illegal to bare and I support the women who want to exercise their rights under those laws. Go here if you want to see what I mean. You won't find any exhibitionists here but will find many political activists:
http://www.tera.ca/

Also I don't have any objections to children being exposed to topfreedom. I don't think it's a sexual thing at all; nor do I think that it is simply something that probably won't do any harm to them. I think that children being exposed to topfreedom is good for them. If boy grow up seeing breasts in nonsexual situations (like the aforementioned beach and pool.) they won't come to fetishise the breasts the way that so many American men do. They will come to see breasts as just another part of the body like legs, tummies, arms and faces. I think that if girls grew up seeing real women's breasts more often they would have a better image of their own bodies because they would realize that most women don't have the perfect breasts of movies and print or that women use wonder bras to pretend that they have. If more women had positive body images they might not resort to spending thousand of dollars on health risking plastic surgery.
Melissa, thanks for you starting this and thanks to Eefje, who suggests a discussion with more content. I still hope to get some reactions on the topic of religion and respect for the values of others. My cards are as follows: I strongly oppose to people who turn topfreedom into an exhibitionistic event. It degrades women. I support nudism and toplessness in certain situations in specific areas. Respect for others is important to me, also for other peoples children. I will never force them to see me topfree outside c/o beaches.
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Alteior
Alteior

October 7th, 2002, 11:13 am #6

I know this sounds like a silly question given the same of the forum, but given the recent flame wars I though it might be nice to get everyone's cards on the table. I think everyone who reads my post knows all of mine but I'll go ahead and put it all in one place.

I don't like the fact that our society has turned the bra into a necessity for any female over 12 even if we are small breasted like me. If a woman wants to wear one because she thinks it makes her look better or more proper or whatever that's fine but why look down at those who don't want to, even if they have large breasts.

I was raised in a nudist family so I believe in topfreedom. I have some ideas about nudity as well but they are for another forum. Our society thinks that genitals should be covered in public and I think that they should be made aware that breasts are not genitals, simply secondary sex characteristics. The US is way behind the rest of the western world as far as topfreedom goes (check out France, Spain, Holland, Norway, or even Canada where women just gained the right to be topfree) Nudism is not mainstream in those cultures either but topfree acceptance sure is. NOTE: By topfree acceptance I mean that I don't care if anyone else takes off their top or not, only that they don't try to have me arrested if I do.

Some states have laws about indecent exposure that don't mention breasts as being illegal to bare and I support the women who want to exercise their rights under those laws. Go here if you want to see what I mean. You won't find any exhibitionists here but will find many political activists:
http://www.tera.ca/

Also I don't have any objections to children being exposed to topfreedom. I don't think it's a sexual thing at all; nor do I think that it is simply something that probably won't do any harm to them. I think that children being exposed to topfreedom is good for them. If boy grow up seeing breasts in nonsexual situations (like the aforementioned beach and pool.) they won't come to fetishise the breasts the way that so many American men do. They will come to see breasts as just another part of the body like legs, tummies, arms and faces. I think that if girls grew up seeing real women's breasts more often they would have a better image of their own bodies because they would realize that most women don't have the perfect breasts of movies and print or that women use wonder bras to pretend that they have. If more women had positive body images they might not resort to spending thousand of dollars on health risking plastic surgery.
In a nutshell:

Public brafreedom: unlimited for reasons of comfort and health.

Public topfreedom: only limited by equality of men and women.

Public nudity: seems an overshoot to me, as it appears to be a basic attidude not to reveal genitals (from the loincloth up to the monokini).

Terms as appropriate, decent, and the like are too volatile, too differently interpreted to be usefull in the discussions. No two people give them the same meaning (not even in the small village I live in).
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Jennifer
Jennifer

October 7th, 2002, 12:04 pm #7

Fair but can you make public topfreedom more explicit? You mean it can only exist if men and women are fully equal? Do you know how we can reach that state?
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Anonymous
Anonymous

October 7th, 2002, 12:28 pm #8

I know this sounds like a silly question given the same of the forum, but given the recent flame wars I though it might be nice to get everyone's cards on the table. I think everyone who reads my post knows all of mine but I'll go ahead and put it all in one place.

I don't like the fact that our society has turned the bra into a necessity for any female over 12 even if we are small breasted like me. If a woman wants to wear one because she thinks it makes her look better or more proper or whatever that's fine but why look down at those who don't want to, even if they have large breasts.

I was raised in a nudist family so I believe in topfreedom. I have some ideas about nudity as well but they are for another forum. Our society thinks that genitals should be covered in public and I think that they should be made aware that breasts are not genitals, simply secondary sex characteristics. The US is way behind the rest of the western world as far as topfreedom goes (check out France, Spain, Holland, Norway, or even Canada where women just gained the right to be topfree) Nudism is not mainstream in those cultures either but topfree acceptance sure is. NOTE: By topfree acceptance I mean that I don't care if anyone else takes off their top or not, only that they don't try to have me arrested if I do.

Some states have laws about indecent exposure that don't mention breasts as being illegal to bare and I support the women who want to exercise their rights under those laws. Go here if you want to see what I mean. You won't find any exhibitionists here but will find many political activists:
http://www.tera.ca/

Also I don't have any objections to children being exposed to topfreedom. I don't think it's a sexual thing at all; nor do I think that it is simply something that probably won't do any harm to them. I think that children being exposed to topfreedom is good for them. If boy grow up seeing breasts in nonsexual situations (like the aforementioned beach and pool.) they won't come to fetishise the breasts the way that so many American men do. They will come to see breasts as just another part of the body like legs, tummies, arms and faces. I think that if girls grew up seeing real women's breasts more often they would have a better image of their own bodies because they would realize that most women don't have the perfect breasts of movies and print or that women use wonder bras to pretend that they have. If more women had positive body images they might not resort to spending thousand of dollars on health risking plastic surgery.
now we're talking. finally the board is going somewhere. hope we keep it this way.
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Joined: August 16th, 2002, 5:35 pm

October 7th, 2002, 12:31 pm #9

I know this sounds like a silly question given the same of the forum, but given the recent flame wars I though it might be nice to get everyone's cards on the table. I think everyone who reads my post knows all of mine but I'll go ahead and put it all in one place.

I don't like the fact that our society has turned the bra into a necessity for any female over 12 even if we are small breasted like me. If a woman wants to wear one because she thinks it makes her look better or more proper or whatever that's fine but why look down at those who don't want to, even if they have large breasts.

I was raised in a nudist family so I believe in topfreedom. I have some ideas about nudity as well but they are for another forum. Our society thinks that genitals should be covered in public and I think that they should be made aware that breasts are not genitals, simply secondary sex characteristics. The US is way behind the rest of the western world as far as topfreedom goes (check out France, Spain, Holland, Norway, or even Canada where women just gained the right to be topfree) Nudism is not mainstream in those cultures either but topfree acceptance sure is. NOTE: By topfree acceptance I mean that I don't care if anyone else takes off their top or not, only that they don't try to have me arrested if I do.

Some states have laws about indecent exposure that don't mention breasts as being illegal to bare and I support the women who want to exercise their rights under those laws. Go here if you want to see what I mean. You won't find any exhibitionists here but will find many political activists:
http://www.tera.ca/

Also I don't have any objections to children being exposed to topfreedom. I don't think it's a sexual thing at all; nor do I think that it is simply something that probably won't do any harm to them. I think that children being exposed to topfreedom is good for them. If boy grow up seeing breasts in nonsexual situations (like the aforementioned beach and pool.) they won't come to fetishise the breasts the way that so many American men do. They will come to see breasts as just another part of the body like legs, tummies, arms and faces. I think that if girls grew up seeing real women's breasts more often they would have a better image of their own bodies because they would realize that most women don't have the perfect breasts of movies and print or that women use wonder bras to pretend that they have. If more women had positive body images they might not resort to spending thousand of dollars on health risking plastic surgery.
Here's my opinion on topfreedom:

As it is today, most women think they absolutely have to cover their breasts at all times.
Most men would look at a woman's breasts all the time if there were topless women nearby, and act like they're seeing a naked woman.
Most PEOPLE think female breasts are sexual objects, and a topless woman is a prostitute or something.

I hope that if women go topless more and more, day by day, year by year and so on, at first at beaches etc, then wherever and whenever men go topless also, someday all the statements I made above will be false.
Women will uncover their breasts without thinking they're doing something peculliar/strange/weird, exactly as men do today.
Men would not spend more time looking at topless women than they do looking at topless men.
PEOPLE will think a bare female chest is no more sexual than a bare male chest. No woman will be wearing bikini tops at the beaches, simply because there will be no reason to.
I repeat that what I have described just above is the ultimate goal of topfreedom in my opinion, and that I don't mean it should happen in the next decade or even in the next century. Just that all steps are (should be?) made toward that end.
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Eefje
Eefje

October 7th, 2002, 1:25 pm #10

Thank you Marcos. Just because the ways women and men thinks nowadays it is so important to talk about these thoughts and feelings. That's why we should not push away people on the forum who asks these qeustions and have their doubts, like Newbie. Just because it is so difficult and mean a radical change for many. Finally we are having a real discussion without assumptions and awful comparisons.
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