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rhonda
rhonda

April 16th, 2004, 9:10 pm #1

about 21 yrs ago, when i was 12, my firend's dad would stick his hand in my shirt and touch my nipples when we would wrestle. as i got older and thought about it i thought that he was molesting me. but based on what i gather from this site i can't help but wonder if you people agree with me, since you don't think of breasts as sexual body parts. i would like to hear some opinions on this, thanks.
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Joined: February 24th, 2004, 8:19 am

April 16th, 2004, 10:08 pm #2

"about 21 yrs ago, when i was 12, my firend's dad would stick his hand in my shirt and touch my nipples when we would wrestle. as i got older and thought about it i thought that he was molesting me. but based on what i gather from this site i can't help but wonder if you people agree with me, since you don't think of breasts as sexual body parts. i would like to hear some opinions on this, thanks."

We don't think of breasts as sexual body parts, but most people do, and he clearly meant it in a sexual way. Molestation (IMO) doesn't depend on the body part that was touched, but how it was touched. You can touch a breast in a totally innocent way, but you can also touch an arm in a sexually inappropriate way.
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

April 16th, 2004, 10:57 pm #3

about 21 yrs ago, when i was 12, my firend's dad would stick his hand in my shirt and touch my nipples when we would wrestle. as i got older and thought about it i thought that he was molesting me. but based on what i gather from this site i can't help but wonder if you people agree with me, since you don't think of breasts as sexual body parts. i would like to hear some opinions on this, thanks.
There is no legitimate reason for someone to reach into another's shirt and touch their nipples.

Does this make them sexual objects? Any part of the body is a sexual object to someone who thinks it is.

Look at all the weird fetish groups at Yahoo. About a dozen just for women's feet.
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Ron
Ron

April 17th, 2004, 10:39 am #4

"about 21 yrs ago, when i was 12, my firend's dad would stick his hand in my shirt and touch my nipples when we would wrestle. as i got older and thought about it i thought that he was molesting me. but based on what i gather from this site i can't help but wonder if you people agree with me, since you don't think of breasts as sexual body parts. i would like to hear some opinions on this, thanks."

We don't think of breasts as sexual body parts, but most people do, and he clearly meant it in a sexual way. Molestation (IMO) doesn't depend on the body part that was touched, but how it was touched. You can touch a breast in a totally innocent way, but you can also touch an arm in a sexually inappropriate way.
how could a grown man touch a child's breast in an innocent way? only if it were by accident, and this apparently wasn't accidental.
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michaela
michaela

April 17th, 2004, 3:14 pm #5

about 21 yrs ago, when i was 12, my firend's dad would stick his hand in my shirt and touch my nipples when we would wrestle. as i got older and thought about it i thought that he was molesting me. but based on what i gather from this site i can't help but wonder if you people agree with me, since you don't think of breasts as sexual body parts. i would like to hear some opinions on this, thanks.
I had a step dad for a few years during the time I was developing, and he too wanted to wrestle and chase. He attempted, and got away with inappropriate things with me and maybe my brother.

Interesting how men who want to touch children seem to want to wrestle. I don't believe it is right for a man to wrestle with a twelve yo girl, and especially one that isn't even his own child. It was certainly not right for his hand to be inside your shirt.
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John Bayko
John Bayko

April 17th, 2004, 5:41 pm #6

about 21 yrs ago, when i was 12, my firend's dad would stick his hand in my shirt and touch my nipples when we would wrestle. as i got older and thought about it i thought that he was molesting me. but based on what i gather from this site i can't help but wonder if you people agree with me, since you don't think of breasts as sexual body parts. i would like to hear some opinions on this, thanks.
I think it depends primarily on how it affected you, not what anyone else thinks. You're the one it happened to, it's your body and your life.

However, it's also fair to be concerned about his motivation. In particular, whether this would lead him to do the same, or more, to other children in a way that affected them negatively - that is, even if it didn't upset you, maybe it upset someone else he did it to.

Unfortunately, people tend to overreact on this topic, which makes practical solutions difficult.

I think of peodopilia as similar to normal sexual desire, with the exception that the object of desire is basically off-limits - children can't give informed consent because they don't fully understand how sex affects others, or how it will affect them as their emotions change through puberty. This is especially important when it comes to age differences - teenagers may have sex with each other, but they are similar enough mentally that they can at least understand the other and have a better idea of the emotional consequences (the longer you wait, the better you understand things, but that's a different topic).

However, there's a difference between the desire and the act. Ordinary men may be sexually attracted to women in general, but don't act on it. This is true even if those men buy magazines, watch porn, or hang out on the beach girlwatching. There's a clear barrier between internal thoughts and external behaviour.

Those who don't have that barrier are rapists - they act on their thoughts. Or they're harassers - they act, but at least they have enough self control to stop.

Similar with peodophiles. I think there are a number who are turned on by the idea for some reason, but would never act on it in the same way that a normaly person with normal sexual drives will never commit rape. I imagine they'd feel the same repulsion for actual sexual acts with children as normal men have for actual rape.

It's the others, the ones who act, which are the ones who can do damage to the children.

Now to the specifics. What is a sexual act? Obviously that can differ between two people. For you and your friend's dad, you didn't think of it as sexual at the time, but maybe he did. Is that enough?

If he did, he might have recognized that you didn't think of it as sexual. It's possible that if he thought you thought of your chest as sexual, and that you'd perceive a groping that way, that he wouldn't have done anything (follow that?).

In other words, he sexually enjoyed a non-sexual act.

That's just one interpretation. But you could look at it similar to looking at a woman and enjoying that sexually. If she doesn't notice or mind, is that a problem?

Probably yes, if he's looking at her through a hidden video camera installed in her bathroom, for example.

The difference there is what she is comfortable with based on the situation. If she doesn't know the situation (is deceived, not knowing about the camera), then control is taken away from her. The choice of what she lets someone else see (things she considers embarassing or sexual) is taken away from her. If she is in control, and knows that others can see her, then looking at her (and fantacizing all manner of perversions) is fine.

What it comes down to, is what would you have thought if you had known what he was doing at the time? Would it have creeped you out, or would you have thought it was funny? Or, do you really care that much?
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michaela
michaela

April 17th, 2004, 7:39 pm #7

<What it comes down to, is what would you have thought if you had known what he was doing at the time? Would it have creeped you out, or would you have thought it was funny? Or, do you really care that much?>
I am not the one who raised this question, John, but having had similar experience, I would venture she did know what he was doing. She was creeped out. She didn't think it was funny, and she does care that much because after all these years, she remembers it happening, and has brought it up in this forum to talk about it.

Twelve year old girls have a huge sense of awareness of their bodies, and the invasion of privacy or violation of their bodies. Also, when you have the experience of a father who respects and protects, and then have the experience of a man who takes what he wants from you, you absolutely know the difference.
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Cindiee
Cindiee

April 17th, 2004, 8:53 pm #8

I think it depends primarily on how it affected you, not what anyone else thinks. You're the one it happened to, it's your body and your life.

However, it's also fair to be concerned about his motivation. In particular, whether this would lead him to do the same, or more, to other children in a way that affected them negatively - that is, even if it didn't upset you, maybe it upset someone else he did it to.

Unfortunately, people tend to overreact on this topic, which makes practical solutions difficult.

I think of peodopilia as similar to normal sexual desire, with the exception that the object of desire is basically off-limits - children can't give informed consent because they don't fully understand how sex affects others, or how it will affect them as their emotions change through puberty. This is especially important when it comes to age differences - teenagers may have sex with each other, but they are similar enough mentally that they can at least understand the other and have a better idea of the emotional consequences (the longer you wait, the better you understand things, but that's a different topic).

However, there's a difference between the desire and the act. Ordinary men may be sexually attracted to women in general, but don't act on it. This is true even if those men buy magazines, watch porn, or hang out on the beach girlwatching. There's a clear barrier between internal thoughts and external behaviour.

Those who don't have that barrier are rapists - they act on their thoughts. Or they're harassers - they act, but at least they have enough self control to stop.

Similar with peodophiles. I think there are a number who are turned on by the idea for some reason, but would never act on it in the same way that a normaly person with normal sexual drives will never commit rape. I imagine they'd feel the same repulsion for actual sexual acts with children as normal men have for actual rape.

It's the others, the ones who act, which are the ones who can do damage to the children.

Now to the specifics. What is a sexual act? Obviously that can differ between two people. For you and your friend's dad, you didn't think of it as sexual at the time, but maybe he did. Is that enough?

If he did, he might have recognized that you didn't think of it as sexual. It's possible that if he thought you thought of your chest as sexual, and that you'd perceive a groping that way, that he wouldn't have done anything (follow that?).

In other words, he sexually enjoyed a non-sexual act.

That's just one interpretation. But you could look at it similar to looking at a woman and enjoying that sexually. If she doesn't notice or mind, is that a problem?

Probably yes, if he's looking at her through a hidden video camera installed in her bathroom, for example.

The difference there is what she is comfortable with based on the situation. If she doesn't know the situation (is deceived, not knowing about the camera), then control is taken away from her. The choice of what she lets someone else see (things she considers embarassing or sexual) is taken away from her. If she is in control, and knows that others can see her, then looking at her (and fantacizing all manner of perversions) is fine.

What it comes down to, is what would you have thought if you had known what he was doing at the time? Would it have creeped you out, or would you have thought it was funny? Or, do you really care that much?
John, John,

I don't think you can be serious with your statements.

A friend's dad having his hand insided a 12 yr young girl and touching her nipples is wrong, deviate and borders on abuse.

He should have been reported to her parents or police. Period. There is no room whatsoever to have a stranger or even a dad do this.

Now as far as wrestling is concerned with your own kids, boys or girls, I see nothing wrong, as long as there is no behavior present, that is different for the girls and boys as far as touching is concerned, etc.

There is no room in my book to stretch the boundaries and justify this behavior somewhat.

Cindiee
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michaela
michaela

April 17th, 2004, 9:10 pm #9

YESSSSS!!!!!
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Joined: April 11th, 2004, 7:40 pm

April 17th, 2004, 10:18 pm #10

about 21 yrs ago, when i was 12, my firend's dad would stick his hand in my shirt and touch my nipples when we would wrestle. as i got older and thought about it i thought that he was molesting me. but based on what i gather from this site i can't help but wonder if you people agree with me, since you don't think of breasts as sexual body parts. i would like to hear some opinions on this, thanks.
I am not sure we even have to debate what is sexual or not here.

First an adult is in a power imbalance with a child, so no relationship other than as a friend, family member or professional can be justified, otherwise, as others have implied, there is a betrayal of trust.

Second, any touching or grabbing in a non-consensual context is assault and inappropriate whether it involves a part of the body thought to be 'sexual' or not.

Therefore this debate has absolutely nothing to do with the subject under consideration here, ie as to whether breasts are 'sexual' or not. This is not wrestling, this is touching inappropriately, and is wrong.

This also has nothing to do with the accidental (office) touching being debated in another thread. I suppose it is just conceivable that one wrestle could result in an accidental touch, but what is described here is a pattern.

Finally it should not matter whether a woman is wearing a bra, is brafree or is top free, if someone touches her breasts, accidentally or otherweise. That is not the issue.

If it makes anyone feel better I did once mistake a woman's breast for a door handle - we both survived the incident.
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