Marseil in America - Culture vs. war

Marseil in America - Culture vs. war

Marseil
Marseil

March 11th, 2012, 10:31 pm #1

I was in New York City over the last few days, and walked around Soho, Washington Square, NYU area.....

Two things:

. I browsed though this book at the Phaidon show room : "Paradise Lost - Persia from Above"
http://fr.phaidon.com/store/photography ... 714848846/
The book is full of extremely nice photos from Persia (Iran), most of them are aerial photos, and some of the are from the ground. All of them demonstrate the immemorial civilization of Persia along with its natural beauties.

. Then I went to the AIA NY Chapter and the Center for Architecture. And visited the ongoing exhibitions : "City of Mirages: Baghdad, 1952-1982" and "CHANGE: Architecture and Engineering in the Middle East, 2000-Present". Both exhibitions were extremely interesting, especially if you're interested in architecture and urban planning. I couldn't help thinking most of what was shown in plans, models and pictures in Baghdad, is now probably destroyed.
http://main.aiany.org/

Just to get to some thoughts.... Why can the US have the best scholars, universities, museums, experts in every part of the world history and civilization, and at the same time have some uneducated politicians deciding the destruction of all this, for the sake of their owns interests and the ones of their business cronies....

Marseil.
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 12th, 2012, 1:24 am #2

Well I know our problems with Iran go back at least to 1979 when they took over our embassy there and held about 50 Americans hostage for a year. They have been threatening to "wipe Israel off the map" for years and we believe are developing nuclear weapons and missiles to do just that. And they have threaten to shut down the Persian Gulf blocking our oil supplies. So it's not like they have have been friends to the US or that we don't have good reason to be wary of them.

As I have said here many times- the whole Middle-East is a powder keg of religious extremist nuts who will eventually trigger a nuclear war and I wish the US had nothing whatsoever to do with anyone in that part of the world. Unfortunately our need for oil and commitments to Israel makes that impossible. I think we should do whatever it takes to end our foreign oil dependance and get completely out of this area- but that still leaves the matter of Israel, whom the US seems obligated to protect. I'll let Bob explain that.
. . . . .
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Bob
Bob

March 12th, 2012, 5:03 pm #3

I was in New York City over the last few days, and walked around Soho, Washington Square, NYU area.....

Two things:

. I browsed though this book at the Phaidon show room : "Paradise Lost - Persia from Above"
http://fr.phaidon.com/store/photography ... 714848846/
The book is full of extremely nice photos from Persia (Iran), most of them are aerial photos, and some of the are from the ground. All of them demonstrate the immemorial civilization of Persia along with its natural beauties.

. Then I went to the AIA NY Chapter and the Center for Architecture. And visited the ongoing exhibitions : "City of Mirages: Baghdad, 1952-1982" and "CHANGE: Architecture and Engineering in the Middle East, 2000-Present". Both exhibitions were extremely interesting, especially if you're interested in architecture and urban planning. I couldn't help thinking most of what was shown in plans, models and pictures in Baghdad, is now probably destroyed.
http://main.aiany.org/

Just to get to some thoughts.... Why can the US have the best scholars, universities, museums, experts in every part of the world history and civilization, and at the same time have some uneducated politicians deciding the destruction of all this, for the sake of their owns interests and the ones of their business cronies....

Marseil.
Why is U.S. so prone to getting into wars? I think it has to do with: a) our view our ourself as a world leader, such that what occurs in the rest of the world is somehow our responsibility to do something about, and b) our capabilities in affecting change elsewhere. If U.S. were not capable of making impact, then it wouldn't matter if we thought we were supposed to lead or not. And this capability is not limited to military might. Money is probably a more important tool used by U.S. to influence countries around the world. People in other countries probably wonder what makes Americans think they are justified in throwing military might around to obtain objectives around the world. I think a lot of Americans question why we are providing billions of dollars in aid to other countries, as if we could buy their friendship. Buying friends doesn't work any better for nations than for individuals. In both, you don't end up with true friends, and the so-called friends likely hold you in greater contempt for seekling to buy them with money (of course, they WILL take the money . . they're not fools!) I think a lot of Americans would like to stop the aid -- those countries that want to be our friends can be, and the others can go their own way . . on their own dime.
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Bob
Bob

March 12th, 2012, 5:13 pm #4

Well I know our problems with Iran go back at least to 1979 when they took over our embassy there and held about 50 Americans hostage for a year. They have been threatening to "wipe Israel off the map" for years and we believe are developing nuclear weapons and missiles to do just that. And they have threaten to shut down the Persian Gulf blocking our oil supplies. So it's not like they have have been friends to the US or that we don't have good reason to be wary of them.

As I have said here many times- the whole Middle-East is a powder keg of religious extremist nuts who will eventually trigger a nuclear war and I wish the US had nothing whatsoever to do with anyone in that part of the world. Unfortunately our need for oil and commitments to Israel makes that impossible. I think we should do whatever it takes to end our foreign oil dependance and get completely out of this area- but that still leaves the matter of Israel, whom the US seems obligated to protect. I'll let Bob explain that.
. . . . .
All I know about it is that some people claim that many of the most wealthy and powerful people in the world are Jewish. These are people who hold the real power and who pull the strings of figurehead leaders such as American politicians. So, U.S. is committed to aiding and defending Isreal to the end, because we are not really free to end such assistance . . the powers won't allow it.

Nat, do you recall my idea about making room in U.S. for a Jewish state, and getting Jews the heck out of harm's way in the Middle East? I still think that would be a good idea. Then Jews could be safe to live their lives and U.S. would not be hated by all those Arab countries who want that land for the Palestinians.

(The other thing we should do regardless is utilize alternative energy sources and stop buying oil from the Middle East. If they can't hold oil over us, what power would they have. None)
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 12th, 2012, 6:27 pm #5

Actually I thought you said the US has a moral obligation to defend Israel.

As for locating Israel elsewhere- as I understand it, both Jews and Muslims insist that their capital must be on their ancient homeland- and both claim (with historical rationale) the very same land. In 1947 the UN tried to settle this by partitioning Palestine to provide land for Israel but Muslims have never been happy with this compromise which is why there has been conflict there ever since.



. . . . .
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 12th, 2012, 6:37 pm #6

Why is U.S. so prone to getting into wars? I think it has to do with: a) our view our ourself as a world leader, such that what occurs in the rest of the world is somehow our responsibility to do something about, and b) our capabilities in affecting change elsewhere. If U.S. were not capable of making impact, then it wouldn't matter if we thought we were supposed to lead or not. And this capability is not limited to military might. Money is probably a more important tool used by U.S. to influence countries around the world. People in other countries probably wonder what makes Americans think they are justified in throwing military might around to obtain objectives around the world. I think a lot of Americans question why we are providing billions of dollars in aid to other countries, as if we could buy their friendship. Buying friends doesn't work any better for nations than for individuals. In both, you don't end up with true friends, and the so-called friends likely hold you in greater contempt for seekling to buy them with money (of course, they WILL take the money . . they're not fools!) I think a lot of Americans would like to stop the aid -- those countries that want to be our friends can be, and the others can go their own way . . on their own dime.
Well I think there is truth to that, plus we saw the lesson of World Wars One and Two where aggression was not stopped and Germany just took over one country after another. And soon after WW-II ended we saw the same thing from Russia and North Korea. So we became programmed to oppose aggression wherever we saw it.

That said, times have changed, and we are no longer in a position to be the world's policeman.
We can't afford it- and our efforts are causing more problems than they are preventing.
. . . . .
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Marseil
Marseil

March 12th, 2012, 10:38 pm #7

Actually I thought you said the US has a moral obligation to defend Israel.

As for locating Israel elsewhere- as I understand it, both Jews and Muslims insist that their capital must be on their ancient homeland- and both claim (with historical rationale) the very same land. In 1947 the UN tried to settle this by partitioning Palestine to provide land for Israel but Muslims have never been happy with this compromise which is why there has been conflict there ever since.



. . . . .
There has been other attempts to create a Jewish state. The French government in the 1930s wanted to create a Jewish state in Argentina, Uganda, Madagascar, ... among others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_ ... wish_state

One only succeeded to a certain extent, Birobidjan, an autonomous territory of the Soviet Union, along the Amur river, in Siberia. Birobidjan was established as the Autonomous Jewish Republic in 1934. Not only Russian jews went there. there has ben an enthusiasm from Jews ill over the world to have a land, so some went there from Argentina, EUrope, the US, etc. Of course, after a SIberian winter, all those who could left. Nowadays, there are still some Jews in Birobdjan, generally estimated at 8,000 people, and Yiddish is still the official language of the Territory along with Russian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

Marseil.
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 12th, 2012, 11:53 pm #8

Yes, this is the problem with religious fanaticism- it can't be just any land- it must be a certain specific land.
. . . . .
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