IF, IF, IF

IF, IF, IF

Bob
Bob

February 14th, 2006, 2:27 am #1

The folks who have been replying to my posts seem to think that the status quo is wrong and their version of what should be is right and will win out in the end: "Employers shouldn't care or have any say if a female employee's breasts bounce or her nipples stick out like sore thumbs." In your world, maybe, but in the real world (21st Century USA), no way.

No matter how strongly you think your way should prevail, remember that there are people with all kinds of other opinions and positions . . . and they all think their way is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong . . or wrong and fascist.

The people who think adults should be allowed to have sex with children use the same arguments that you use about "breast freedom": "Its society that is ridiculously uptight and needs to change" . . . "Its sex, a natural function . . why are they making it seems dirty? . . get over it!" . . . . "Its insulting and wrong to say that children can't know their own minds, know what they want . . that they can't feel love . . lust . . for someone and want to be with them . . that they can't want pleasure too" . . . . "If we keep pushing for change, the archaic thinking that has predominated in the past will give way to the enlightened view that adult-child relations is a beautiful thing." And these folks feel just as certain about their position as you are about yours.

So, who's right? In our modern secular society . . moral relativism . . . the lines of right and wrong get clouded . . . intentionally so. We start thinking that something is right for society because WE want it. We don't see excesses because to us its not excessive. And, to someone else, the things we find excessive and want controlled (like sex with kids, or sex with animals, or puiblic defecation) are "perfectly normal". And, if you or I object, we are told that we have no right . . society has no right . . . to control the individual and their body.

You can try to claim that your cause is different . . you don't want anyone to link bralessness or toplessness, or full public nudity . . or anything else you favor . . . with disgusting, immoral things. But, disgusting and immoral to who? To you? Who ARE you? What is your right to hold predjudicial views and impose them upon others?

My answer is: "WE ARE SOCIETY. Society has that right . . the majority of people have that right to decide what is allowed and what is forbidden . . . what is permitted in one's private quarters but not acceptable in the public arena. Society, though you may disagree with the decisioon, has that right.
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John Bayko
John Bayko

February 14th, 2006, 2:42 am #2

"WE ARE SOCIETY. Society has that right . ."

"Society" does not actually exist. It's a sort of made up thing that people can point to and say "That's the cause of [criminal behaviour, intolerance, drug use, politicians, etc]" (or often instead, "that's the Thing of Authority that I say agrees with me so that makes me right"). At best, you can refer to a persons social environment, but that will vary between individuals, sometimes by extremes, even for people living in the same general location.

You might also refer to "group of like-minded people around me", but that's not a "society" either, though if it constitutes your personal environment, it may seem that way. But it's just your particular group.

If you want to refer to "society" as being "everybody", or at least "the majority", you also have to realise that you can rarely get agreement on anything more than the broadest of principles. but when you start getting detailed, for any group large enough, their agreement will break down as they quibble over the details[1].


[1] My solution to terrorism is to give them all unlimited, unmonitored Internet access to plan all their attacks. Within a month they will be quarreling over which shades of the colour "red" are blasphemous, and quickly start fighting each other instead.
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 14th, 2006, 2:59 am #3

The folks who have been replying to my posts seem to think that the status quo is wrong and their version of what should be is right and will win out in the end: "Employers shouldn't care or have any say if a female employee's breasts bounce or her nipples stick out like sore thumbs." In your world, maybe, but in the real world (21st Century USA), no way.

No matter how strongly you think your way should prevail, remember that there are people with all kinds of other opinions and positions . . . and they all think their way is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong . . or wrong and fascist.

The people who think adults should be allowed to have sex with children use the same arguments that you use about "breast freedom": "Its society that is ridiculously uptight and needs to change" . . . "Its sex, a natural function . . why are they making it seems dirty? . . get over it!" . . . . "Its insulting and wrong to say that children can't know their own minds, know what they want . . that they can't feel love . . lust . . for someone and want to be with them . . that they can't want pleasure too" . . . . "If we keep pushing for change, the archaic thinking that has predominated in the past will give way to the enlightened view that adult-child relations is a beautiful thing." And these folks feel just as certain about their position as you are about yours.

So, who's right? In our modern secular society . . moral relativism . . . the lines of right and wrong get clouded . . . intentionally so. We start thinking that something is right for society because WE want it. We don't see excesses because to us its not excessive. And, to someone else, the things we find excessive and want controlled (like sex with kids, or sex with animals, or puiblic defecation) are "perfectly normal". And, if you or I object, we are told that we have no right . . society has no right . . . to control the individual and their body.

You can try to claim that your cause is different . . you don't want anyone to link bralessness or toplessness, or full public nudity . . or anything else you favor . . . with disgusting, immoral things. But, disgusting and immoral to who? To you? Who ARE you? What is your right to hold predjudicial views and impose them upon others?

My answer is: "WE ARE SOCIETY. Society has that right . . the majority of people have that right to decide what is allowed and what is forbidden . . . what is permitted in one's private quarters but not acceptable in the public arena. Society, though you may disagree with the decisioon, has that right.
Gee, here we go again.
I won't bother to answer your tirade because you can read my previous answers in the archive.
They haven't changed and neither have you.

Oh-hum.
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sdun
sdun

February 14th, 2006, 3:54 am #4

The folks who have been replying to my posts seem to think that the status quo is wrong and their version of what should be is right and will win out in the end: "Employers shouldn't care or have any say if a female employee's breasts bounce or her nipples stick out like sore thumbs." In your world, maybe, but in the real world (21st Century USA), no way.

No matter how strongly you think your way should prevail, remember that there are people with all kinds of other opinions and positions . . . and they all think their way is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong . . or wrong and fascist.

The people who think adults should be allowed to have sex with children use the same arguments that you use about "breast freedom": "Its society that is ridiculously uptight and needs to change" . . . "Its sex, a natural function . . why are they making it seems dirty? . . get over it!" . . . . "Its insulting and wrong to say that children can't know their own minds, know what they want . . that they can't feel love . . lust . . for someone and want to be with them . . that they can't want pleasure too" . . . . "If we keep pushing for change, the archaic thinking that has predominated in the past will give way to the enlightened view that adult-child relations is a beautiful thing." And these folks feel just as certain about their position as you are about yours.

So, who's right? In our modern secular society . . moral relativism . . . the lines of right and wrong get clouded . . . intentionally so. We start thinking that something is right for society because WE want it. We don't see excesses because to us its not excessive. And, to someone else, the things we find excessive and want controlled (like sex with kids, or sex with animals, or puiblic defecation) are "perfectly normal". And, if you or I object, we are told that we have no right . . society has no right . . . to control the individual and their body.

You can try to claim that your cause is different . . you don't want anyone to link bralessness or toplessness, or full public nudity . . or anything else you favor . . . with disgusting, immoral things. But, disgusting and immoral to who? To you? Who ARE you? What is your right to hold predjudicial views and impose them upon others?

My answer is: "WE ARE SOCIETY. Society has that right . . the majority of people have that right to decide what is allowed and what is forbidden . . . what is permitted in one's private quarters but not acceptable in the public arena. Society, though you may disagree with the decisioon, has that right.
Since when is it wrong for one to try changing things in a society that we think are wrong. Many things have changed in our society over the last 100 years due to activists and many of these things were needed. Believe me I do not want to live in the society my grandparents did during the early 20th Century and many of the changes that started out with only minority support (male topfreedom, women voting rights, etc.) are today supported by the majority. I am trying to change this attitude that the breast is obscene so my grand children will have a much healthier attitude towards sex than I had growing up during the 50's and 60's. I do not understand your rantings about the danger of female topfreedom. I know of no one ever being harmed, child or adult, by seeing the sight of the female breasts. If you can show me a reason for denying female topfeedom, be it physical or psychological health then I will listen to you. The only defense I have seen you give for women being denied topfreedom is that some people will be offended by the sight. If we deny people freedom because someone might be offended by what they see then I as an aging male had better stay inside or cover my face because I am sure there are young people out there offended by seeing a sunspotted face with wrinkles.
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Marv
Marv

February 14th, 2006, 6:06 am #5

The folks who have been replying to my posts seem to think that the status quo is wrong and their version of what should be is right and will win out in the end: "Employers shouldn't care or have any say if a female employee's breasts bounce or her nipples stick out like sore thumbs." In your world, maybe, but in the real world (21st Century USA), no way.

No matter how strongly you think your way should prevail, remember that there are people with all kinds of other opinions and positions . . . and they all think their way is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong . . or wrong and fascist.

The people who think adults should be allowed to have sex with children use the same arguments that you use about "breast freedom": "Its society that is ridiculously uptight and needs to change" . . . "Its sex, a natural function . . why are they making it seems dirty? . . get over it!" . . . . "Its insulting and wrong to say that children can't know their own minds, know what they want . . that they can't feel love . . lust . . for someone and want to be with them . . that they can't want pleasure too" . . . . "If we keep pushing for change, the archaic thinking that has predominated in the past will give way to the enlightened view that adult-child relations is a beautiful thing." And these folks feel just as certain about their position as you are about yours.

So, who's right? In our modern secular society . . moral relativism . . . the lines of right and wrong get clouded . . . intentionally so. We start thinking that something is right for society because WE want it. We don't see excesses because to us its not excessive. And, to someone else, the things we find excessive and want controlled (like sex with kids, or sex with animals, or puiblic defecation) are "perfectly normal". And, if you or I object, we are told that we have no right . . society has no right . . . to control the individual and their body.

You can try to claim that your cause is different . . you don't want anyone to link bralessness or toplessness, or full public nudity . . or anything else you favor . . . with disgusting, immoral things. But, disgusting and immoral to who? To you? Who ARE you? What is your right to hold predjudicial views and impose them upon others?

My answer is: "WE ARE SOCIETY. Society has that right . . the majority of people have that right to decide what is allowed and what is forbidden . . . what is permitted in one's private quarters but not acceptable in the public arena. Society, though you may disagree with the decisioon, has that right.
Was the English society right when they thought they should own the U.S.
Was the society right when they said women could not vote
Was the society right when they said black people had to ride the back of the bus
Was the society right when they said women's swim suit should reach their ankles and men had to wear tops
What is society going to say for tomorrow or the next decade ??????????? If any body knows they're a lot smarter than I
Since I retired I do a lot of volunteer work where men and women work to gather [usually home or church repair] and I'm always encouraging women, {and men} to do something they have never done before, and when I'm told women don't do something [example using a miter saw] I come alive, Being a man I have to stay away from underwear. I did find one woman this willing or interested to here me out, and gave her all the information I could find on bra's and cancer, being she is a school teacher, thought she would be a good one to spread the word. guess is getting long enough.
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Marv
Marv

February 14th, 2006, 6:21 am #6

The folks who have been replying to my posts seem to think that the status quo is wrong and their version of what should be is right and will win out in the end: "Employers shouldn't care or have any say if a female employee's breasts bounce or her nipples stick out like sore thumbs." In your world, maybe, but in the real world (21st Century USA), no way.

No matter how strongly you think your way should prevail, remember that there are people with all kinds of other opinions and positions . . . and they all think their way is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong . . or wrong and fascist.

The people who think adults should be allowed to have sex with children use the same arguments that you use about "breast freedom": "Its society that is ridiculously uptight and needs to change" . . . "Its sex, a natural function . . why are they making it seems dirty? . . get over it!" . . . . "Its insulting and wrong to say that children can't know their own minds, know what they want . . that they can't feel love . . lust . . for someone and want to be with them . . that they can't want pleasure too" . . . . "If we keep pushing for change, the archaic thinking that has predominated in the past will give way to the enlightened view that adult-child relations is a beautiful thing." And these folks feel just as certain about their position as you are about yours.

So, who's right? In our modern secular society . . moral relativism . . . the lines of right and wrong get clouded . . . intentionally so. We start thinking that something is right for society because WE want it. We don't see excesses because to us its not excessive. And, to someone else, the things we find excessive and want controlled (like sex with kids, or sex with animals, or puiblic defecation) are "perfectly normal". And, if you or I object, we are told that we have no right . . society has no right . . . to control the individual and their body.

You can try to claim that your cause is different . . you don't want anyone to link bralessness or toplessness, or full public nudity . . or anything else you favor . . . with disgusting, immoral things. But, disgusting and immoral to who? To you? Who ARE you? What is your right to hold predjudicial views and impose them upon others?

My answer is: "WE ARE SOCIETY. Society has that right . . the majority of people have that right to decide what is allowed and what is forbidden . . . what is permitted in one's private quarters but not acceptable in the public arena. Society, though you may disagree with the decisioon, has that right.
Some people remind of when I used to play games many years ago, We would be playing and some one would get the ball and run the wrong direction of which our team was running to our goal
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Melissa
Melissa

February 14th, 2006, 8:50 am #7

The folks who have been replying to my posts seem to think that the status quo is wrong and their version of what should be is right and will win out in the end: "Employers shouldn't care or have any say if a female employee's breasts bounce or her nipples stick out like sore thumbs." In your world, maybe, but in the real world (21st Century USA), no way.

No matter how strongly you think your way should prevail, remember that there are people with all kinds of other opinions and positions . . . and they all think their way is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong . . or wrong and fascist.

The people who think adults should be allowed to have sex with children use the same arguments that you use about "breast freedom": "Its society that is ridiculously uptight and needs to change" . . . "Its sex, a natural function . . why are they making it seems dirty? . . get over it!" . . . . "Its insulting and wrong to say that children can't know their own minds, know what they want . . that they can't feel love . . lust . . for someone and want to be with them . . that they can't want pleasure too" . . . . "If we keep pushing for change, the archaic thinking that has predominated in the past will give way to the enlightened view that adult-child relations is a beautiful thing." And these folks feel just as certain about their position as you are about yours.

So, who's right? In our modern secular society . . moral relativism . . . the lines of right and wrong get clouded . . . intentionally so. We start thinking that something is right for society because WE want it. We don't see excesses because to us its not excessive. And, to someone else, the things we find excessive and want controlled (like sex with kids, or sex with animals, or puiblic defecation) are "perfectly normal". And, if you or I object, we are told that we have no right . . society has no right . . . to control the individual and their body.

You can try to claim that your cause is different . . you don't want anyone to link bralessness or toplessness, or full public nudity . . or anything else you favor . . . with disgusting, immoral things. But, disgusting and immoral to who? To you? Who ARE you? What is your right to hold predjudicial views and impose them upon others?

My answer is: "WE ARE SOCIETY. Society has that right . . the majority of people have that right to decide what is allowed and what is forbidden . . . what is permitted in one's private quarters but not acceptable in the public arena. Society, though you may disagree with the decisioon, has that right.
I'm just gonna not feed the troll this time.
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Joined: February 2nd, 2006, 7:51 pm

February 14th, 2006, 1:41 pm #8

Then how are we going to brainwash him into seeing things our way?
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Joined: February 2nd, 2006, 7:51 pm

February 14th, 2006, 2:00 pm #9

"WE ARE SOCIETY. Society has that right . ."

"Society" does not actually exist. It's a sort of made up thing that people can point to and say "That's the cause of [criminal behaviour, intolerance, drug use, politicians, etc]" (or often instead, "that's the Thing of Authority that I say agrees with me so that makes me right"). At best, you can refer to a persons social environment, but that will vary between individuals, sometimes by extremes, even for people living in the same general location.

You might also refer to "group of like-minded people around me", but that's not a "society" either, though if it constitutes your personal environment, it may seem that way. But it's just your particular group.

If you want to refer to "society" as being "everybody", or at least "the majority", you also have to realise that you can rarely get agreement on anything more than the broadest of principles. but when you start getting detailed, for any group large enough, their agreement will break down as they quibble over the details[1].


[1] My solution to terrorism is to give them all unlimited, unmonitored Internet access to plan all their attacks. Within a month they will be quarreling over which shades of the colour "red" are blasphemous, and quickly start fighting each other instead.
This is exactly what I was thinking as I read Bob's post. This isn't at all about so called society, or majority. Each woman, or man, as the case may be, deals with the issue of whether their nipples are showing at work through their shirt on a much smaller scale. One boss may find the behavior of bralessness/t-shirtlessness unprofessional and call the employee on the carpet. Another boss may not even notice, or if he or she does maybe keeps quiet about it, maybe remembering their long ago days at the Oregon Country Fair. They know the employee to be a good productive member of their work force and doesn't get on their case about clothing.

This is not a national conversation. No one is all that concerned. Bob is the most upset about it. There are so many examples of nipping and bouncing at any given outing I go on, whether in an office setting or out in the stores, market or street, that there is no way it can be regulated or even thought about in a restrictive way. And these examples of nipping and bouncing are given by women wearing bras!

I think you, Bob, should maybe do some exercises in improving your view of the natural body. I know you are in the process of getting back into shape physically, and I congratualate you on that. It is hard work and the health benefits are the reason it is worth it. But! You will not be any happier if your new skinny hard body causes you to fall farther into the belief that other body types and aging are bad. Or that only physically fit people have a right to be comfortable in their skin.

I think a great way for you to learn to except people for who they are on the inside would be to go visit Nudist or Naturist websites and perhaps have conversations with nudists about why they are nude, and happily so.

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TCII
TCII

February 15th, 2006, 12:29 am #10

Then how are we going to brainwash him into seeing things our way?
Some trolls just bite the hands that feed them.
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