Bottom Line

Bottom Line

Bob
Bob

September 24th, 2007, 8:04 pm #1

Regarding the extended debate below on religion vs. atheism . . I think the bottom line to the opposition some have to people of faith is that many of us don't want anyone trying to tell us what to do. Its not that centuries ago (or even today) some people killed others over religious differences. I think that is a minor consideration to people compared to the issue of a faith (or anyone/anthing for that matter) setting standards and saying to people, "You must do this" or "You must not do that".

I note how people shop around for a church in which they feel "comfortable". Which is really to say "Don't tell me anything I don't wish to hear. Just let me come for my one hour of worship each week, don't set any limits on the things I choose to do, and I will then behave however I wish and come back here to be absolved of sin."

Such people erroneously believe the church exists to join them, when the only benefit is derived by being willing to let go of one's sin and join the church. Unfortunately, some churches are so eager or desperate to attract a congregation that they are willing to overlook anything in order to get butts in the pews. Sad.
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

September 24th, 2007, 9:52 pm #2

First off, in the interest of full disclosure, I should tell you I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm basically an agnostic. I don't know which side is right. I would like to believe there is a God, but a lot doesn't make sense to me so I keep an open mind. And I've tried to stay out of this hot potato issue, but I can't resist pointing out some hypocrisy here.

>"Regarding the extended debate below on religion vs. atheism . . I think the bottom line to the opposition some have to people of faith is that many of us don't want anyone trying to tell us what to do."<

Yes, religious complain that atheists want to limit their rights- and yet religious have no hesitation to impose their moral views on atheists. We have a lot of laws in this country regulating personal conduct and freedom which have no other purpose but enforce religious-based morality on everyone- including atheists.

Why is prostitution illegal? It's a business arrangement between to consenting adults that hurts no one. What about fornication or gay-marriage or pornography or nude dancing? or certain drugs? Did you know that in a number of southern states it is illegal for a woman to buy a dildo? What possible business is it of the state if a woman uses a dildo to relieve her sexual tension??

This is what pisses off atheists, Bob- being force to abide with religious dogma they don't agree with. They are saying what consenting adults do in their bedroom is no business of the yours.
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Brandon
Brandon

September 25th, 2007, 12:35 am #3

Nat, all laws are based on moral beliefs. It is just that our laws in the U.S are based on Judeo-Christian concepts.

If we don't like those laws, we are free to petition our city councils, state legislatures, Congress etc to get those laws changed.

At one time many Southern states had Blue Laws. These were very common until the 1970s. Blue Laws were ordinances that made all businesses close on Sunday. If you were Jewish and your sabbath is Saturday, you were just out of luck. But now these laws have been changed.

Someday, we made decide that prostitution or maybe certain drugs like marijuana should be legal, but all laws are based on someone's morals.
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mackayla
mackayla

September 25th, 2007, 12:38 am #4

Regarding the extended debate below on religion vs. atheism . . I think the bottom line to the opposition some have to people of faith is that many of us don't want anyone trying to tell us what to do. Its not that centuries ago (or even today) some people killed others over religious differences. I think that is a minor consideration to people compared to the issue of a faith (or anyone/anthing for that matter) setting standards and saying to people, "You must do this" or "You must not do that".

I note how people shop around for a church in which they feel "comfortable". Which is really to say "Don't tell me anything I don't wish to hear. Just let me come for my one hour of worship each week, don't set any limits on the things I choose to do, and I will then behave however I wish and come back here to be absolved of sin."

Such people erroneously believe the church exists to join them, when the only benefit is derived by being willing to let go of one's sin and join the church. Unfortunately, some churches are so eager or desperate to attract a congregation that they are willing to overlook anything in order to get butts in the pews. Sad.
<<<I note how people shop around for a church in which they feel "comfortable". Which is really to say "Don't tell me anything I don't wish to hear. Just let me come for my one hour of worship each week, don't set any limits on the things I choose to do, and I will then behave however I wish and come back here to be absolved of sin."

Such people erroneously believe the church exists to join them, when the only benefit is derived by being willing to let go of one's sin and join the church. Unfortunately, some churches are so eager or desperate to attract a congregation that they are willing to overlook anything in order to get butts in the pews. Sad.>>>

This is all so biased that it makes me think of two words...preachy, and propaganda.
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

September 25th, 2007, 1:20 am #5

Nat, all laws are based on moral beliefs. It is just that our laws in the U.S are based on Judeo-Christian concepts.

If we don't like those laws, we are free to petition our city councils, state legislatures, Congress etc to get those laws changed.

At one time many Southern states had Blue Laws. These were very common until the 1970s. Blue Laws were ordinances that made all businesses close on Sunday. If you were Jewish and your sabbath is Saturday, you were just out of luck. But now these laws have been changed.

Someday, we made decide that prostitution or maybe certain drugs like marijuana should be legal, but all laws are based on someone's morals.
>"Nat, all laws are based on moral beliefs. It is just that our laws in the U.S are based on Judeo-Christian concepts."
If we don't like those laws, we are free to petition our city councils, state legislatures, Congress etc to get those laws changed."
<

Tyranny of the majority imposing their will on the minority?
Yes, I'm free to petition, but as long as the majority remains the majority I'm not likely to get my way.

>"At one time many Southern states had Blue Laws. These were very common until the 1970s. Blue Laws were ordinances that made all businesses close on Sunday. If you were Jewish and your sabbath is Saturday, you were just out of luck. But now these laws have been changed."<

Yes, Brandon, I'm older than you- I remember blue laws. They were a stupid infringement on personal liberty which only illustrates what I was saying. But we still have many that do that.

>"Someday, we made decide that prostitution or maybe certain drugs like marijuana should be legal, but all laws are based on someone's morals."<

Sure, "Someone's morals"- doesn't matter if they aren't mine?
This is my definition of morality- Is an innocent party being harmed? If so it is immoral- as the saying goes- your right to swing your arm stop where my nose is. But there are still many victimless acts that are outlawed just because the powers that be don't like them.

You may not like a bar with nude dancing but unless they are going out dragging people in against their will, the state has no business prohibiting it.
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Brandon
Brandon

September 25th, 2007, 1:30 am #6

I'd rather the majority impose their will on the minority than the other way around.

You can always try and convince others that your views are correct and this has been done throughout history.

If you'd ask most people in 1960 in the South if African Americans should be allowed to vote, they'd have said no but their minds were changed and in 2007 only a small percentage of the most vile racists would hold that viewpoint. But the majority of Southerners would have believed that just 40 something years ago.

I hope you believe in zoning laws, because at least in Nashville you wouldn't want to live anywhere near a strip club. Those places are havens for all kinds of crimes.
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Bob
Bob

September 25th, 2007, 1:45 am #7

First off, in the interest of full disclosure, I should tell you I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm basically an agnostic. I don't know which side is right. I would like to believe there is a God, but a lot doesn't make sense to me so I keep an open mind. And I've tried to stay out of this hot potato issue, but I can't resist pointing out some hypocrisy here.

>"Regarding the extended debate below on religion vs. atheism . . I think the bottom line to the opposition some have to people of faith is that many of us don't want anyone trying to tell us what to do."<

Yes, religious complain that atheists want to limit their rights- and yet religious have no hesitation to impose their moral views on atheists. We have a lot of laws in this country regulating personal conduct and freedom which have no other purpose but enforce religious-based morality on everyone- including atheists.

Why is prostitution illegal? It's a business arrangement between to consenting adults that hurts no one. What about fornication or gay-marriage or pornography or nude dancing? or certain drugs? Did you know that in a number of southern states it is illegal for a woman to buy a dildo? What possible business is it of the state if a woman uses a dildo to relieve her sexual tension??

This is what pisses off atheists, Bob- being force to abide with religious dogma they don't agree with. They are saying what consenting adults do in their bedroom is no business of the yours.
Someone might ask, "Why must I drive on the right side of the highway (in U.S.) just because THE MAJORITY say this is what we will do? Isn't this a FREE COUNTRY?!!!"

Any functional society has rules . . most of which are to some degree arbitrary. Some people question the U.S. govt's authority to impose an income tax. Yet, most of us pay income taxes, under fear of penalty. Yes, big, bad govt is doing this to the people. None of us long to pay taxes, but most of us realize its an arbitrary price to live in this society.

I think a generation of Americans (ours) got the foolish idea that anything we oppose is wrong, regardless if others agree with it. What did they call us? Oh yeah, "The Me Generation." We need to collectively get over ourselves and understand that others think we/you are clueless and arbitrary for whatever you advocate. Totally arbitrary . . and to some, just plain foolish and wrong.

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Bob
Bob

September 25th, 2007, 1:46 am #8

<<<I note how people shop around for a church in which they feel "comfortable". Which is really to say "Don't tell me anything I don't wish to hear. Just let me come for my one hour of worship each week, don't set any limits on the things I choose to do, and I will then behave however I wish and come back here to be absolved of sin."

Such people erroneously believe the church exists to join them, when the only benefit is derived by being willing to let go of one's sin and join the church. Unfortunately, some churches are so eager or desperate to attract a congregation that they are willing to overlook anything in order to get butts in the pews. Sad.>>>

This is all so biased that it makes me think of two words...preachy, and propaganda.
YOU call me "preachy"? Dear, have you ever re-read your posts? OMG, I can't imagine a more opinionated, preachy person! hahahaha
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

September 25th, 2007, 1:46 am #9

I'd rather the majority impose their will on the minority than the other way around.

You can always try and convince others that your views are correct and this has been done throughout history.

If you'd ask most people in 1960 in the South if African Americans should be allowed to vote, they'd have said no but their minds were changed and in 2007 only a small percentage of the most vile racists would hold that viewpoint. But the majority of Southerners would have believed that just 40 something years ago.

I hope you believe in zoning laws, because at least in Nashville you wouldn't want to live anywhere near a strip club. Those places are havens for all kinds of crimes.
I don't think ANY group should limit the freedoms of another unless it can be demonstrated that there is a valid reason- like a innocent party is being harmed.

Reasonable zoning laws are ok as long as they are applied fairly to all businesses and reasonable accommodation are made for the businesses elsewhere. But many towns have used zoning laws selectively just to run certain businesses out of town which is not right.
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mackayla
mackayla

September 25th, 2007, 1:51 am #10

YOU call me "preachy"? Dear, have you ever re-read your posts? OMG, I can't imagine a more opinionated, preachy person! hahahaha
Opinionated....INDEED! and proud of it, thankyouverymuch!
Preachy, not!
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