American Gladiator

American Gladiator

Bob
Bob

May 19th, 2006, 12:51 am #1

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Marseil
Marseil

May 21st, 2006, 11:33 am #2

Amazing!
Just remind me: how many Iraqi victims has this war made?

Marseil.
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peter
peter

May 21st, 2006, 1:20 pm #3

Clearly, not enough!
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SHADOW
SHADOW

May 21st, 2006, 1:26 pm #4

Amazing!
Just remind me: how many Iraqi victims has this war made?

Marseil.
Amazing indeed! Who is it you think are killing the Iraqi? Proportionately, it is their own people. Car bombs everyday. Bombs in mosques. Get real!
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Bob
Bob

May 21st, 2006, 2:05 pm #5

Marseil:

Despite some appearances, most Americans DO care about the lives on innocent Iraqis who are dying, mostly now in these insurgent terrorist attacks. We certainly want the fighting to end, and we want U.S. military involvement to drastically decline as the Iraqis would (hopefully) learn to government themselves peacefully. With their oil wealth, imagine what a wonderful country they could build IF allowed to be free?

Some point out just how unrealistic this goal of a free and peaceful Iraq is . . . that U.S. should never have gone in. I can't argue with that one -- as noted elsewhere, I wish now that the U.S. had not entered Iraq. There are probably many Iraqis who would adapt and thrive in a free society, but maybe its true that the culture would work against that too strongly, as some have stated. But, wishing won't change anything. We just have to hope for a positive outcome.
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John Bayko
John Bayko

May 21st, 2006, 5:00 pm #6

"Despite some appearances, most Americans DO care about the lives on innocent Iraqis who are dying, mostly now in these insurgent terrorist attacks. "

I think what people really want is an apology, from those responsible.

Also, it's easy to confuse the actions of a government with the support of a country's people. Surveys just after the war started showed that most Americans considered the British to be America's closest allies, despite the fact that public opposition to the war was far greater there than it was in the U.S - or even France, I believe.

"Some point out just how unrealistic this goal of a free and peaceful Iraq is . . . "

The irony is, it may have been possible, peacefully. One only has to look Northward.

The area which calls itself Iraqi Kurdistan has been a unique culture for hundreds of years. The Kurds live in areas which also include parts of Turkey and Iran. During the one of the crusades, the various Arab factions were united by a Kurd named Salah al-Din (or Saladin - a diplomat as well as a soldier, he brokered a truce allowing Christians unfettered access to Jerusalem).

After the first Gulf War, the U.N passed resolutions protecting the Kurds in the North and the Shiites in the South from military aggression, and the U.S and U.K declared their "no fly" zones. This didn't help those in the South so much, but the Northern areas were isolated enough from the populated areas of Iraq that the Iraqi military withdrew, and the Kurds were able to set up a democratically elected government, military (the Peshmerga), and essentially a "country within a country". In the recent Iraqi national elections, the Kurds had an extra space on their ballots, for electing the local Kurdish government.

It wasn't perfect, and the two main parties have had military clashes. But it was mostly a success, and the area has been re-unified under the U.S occupation.

That would have been an ideal model for how to liberate Iraq democratically. There would be additional issues elsewhere, due to mixed ethnicity in some areas, and it would have required a very long term commitment, a very thorough understanding of Iraq's ethnic dynamics, and a strong and realistic vision of what a liberated Iraq would look like (not "make chaos and let them sort it out"). And a lot of long-winded negotiations and compromise, whith the U.S is traditionally horrible at...

The Kurts support the U.S occupation and like Americans. The economy in the Kurdistan area is booming. And they're very confident that soon, they'll be able to annex the oil-refinery city of Mosul from the Sunnis...
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John Bayko
John Bayko

May 21st, 2006, 5:18 pm #7

Amazing indeed! Who is it you think are killing the Iraqi? Proportionately, it is their own people. Car bombs everyday. Bombs in mosques. Get real!
"Who is it you think are killing the Iraqi? Proportionately, it is their own people."

There's a good reason Saddam Hussein ruled Iraq with an iron fist - because the various factions that make up the country were ready to go at each other's throats otherwise. During a brief period after the war, most Iraqis were united against the U.S occupation, but the old hatreds have risen up, and the fighting has become more of a low level civil war for over a year now.

There are Iraqis who oppose Americans. There are Iraqis who support Americans because they can convince the Americans to do their dirty work. There are Iraqis who support the Americans because they actually agree with what they're trying to do. There are Iraqis who oppose the Iraqis who support the Americans. The Iraqis who support the Americans oppose the Iraqis who oppose them. There are Shiites who oppose Sunnis who opposed them for years. There are Sunnis who never opposed Shiites, and now resent the Shiites for unfairly opposing them. There are Sunnis who did oppose Shiites and fear the Shiites who now oppose them for their previous opposition. There are Sunnis who didn't oppose Shiites, but now do because the Shiites oppose them. There are extremist Shiites who oppose moderate Shiites who support the Iraqi government but oppose Americans and think a successful government is the best way to get rid of the occupiers. There are those who just oppose the Iraqi government because it interferes with their power. Actually, a lot of those groups - like rival Iraqi mafia groups.

There are criminals who kidnap for ransom. There are criminals who kill for robbing. There are organized crime groups with more power than the governments. There are political factions with militias more powerful than the local governments (the mayor of Bagdad was replaced by one - they just walked in one day with a squad of armed men, told him he was no longer mayor, and replaced him with their guy). There are local "neighbourhood watch" groups, armed with AK-47s.

Basically, what I'm saying, is it's complicated, with lots of different people wanting different things, and doing a lot of killing. You know how in remote areas, sometimes highway workers will drive out, and stop and scoop up road kill? American patrols in Bagdad typically bring three or four body bags with them, to scoop up dead Iraqis.

I'm still amazed that Bush can call this with a straight face "a greate success" without vomiting.
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

May 21st, 2006, 5:52 pm #8

I think the only way Iraq thing is going to work is to divide it into separate countries for each religious sect because I don't think these militant sects are ever going to get along and agree enough to run a common country. And there is no reason it need stay a single country it if works better to separate it.
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SHADOW
SHADOW

May 21st, 2006, 6:13 pm #9

"Who is it you think are killing the Iraqi? Proportionately, it is their own people."

There's a good reason Saddam Hussein ruled Iraq with an iron fist - because the various factions that make up the country were ready to go at each other's throats otherwise. During a brief period after the war, most Iraqis were united against the U.S occupation, but the old hatreds have risen up, and the fighting has become more of a low level civil war for over a year now.

There are Iraqis who oppose Americans. There are Iraqis who support Americans because they can convince the Americans to do their dirty work. There are Iraqis who support the Americans because they actually agree with what they're trying to do. There are Iraqis who oppose the Iraqis who support the Americans. The Iraqis who support the Americans oppose the Iraqis who oppose them. There are Shiites who oppose Sunnis who opposed them for years. There are Sunnis who never opposed Shiites, and now resent the Shiites for unfairly opposing them. There are Sunnis who did oppose Shiites and fear the Shiites who now oppose them for their previous opposition. There are Sunnis who didn't oppose Shiites, but now do because the Shiites oppose them. There are extremist Shiites who oppose moderate Shiites who support the Iraqi government but oppose Americans and think a successful government is the best way to get rid of the occupiers. There are those who just oppose the Iraqi government because it interferes with their power. Actually, a lot of those groups - like rival Iraqi mafia groups.

There are criminals who kidnap for ransom. There are criminals who kill for robbing. There are organized crime groups with more power than the governments. There are political factions with militias more powerful than the local governments (the mayor of Bagdad was replaced by one - they just walked in one day with a squad of armed men, told him he was no longer mayor, and replaced him with their guy). There are local "neighbourhood watch" groups, armed with AK-47s.

Basically, what I'm saying, is it's complicated, with lots of different people wanting different things, and doing a lot of killing. You know how in remote areas, sometimes highway workers will drive out, and stop and scoop up road kill? American patrols in Bagdad typically bring three or four body bags with them, to scoop up dead Iraqis.

I'm still amazed that Bush can call this with a straight face "a greate success" without vomiting.
After all the lies my first thought would be to pull out and let the Iraqis kill each other and get it over with. But on second thought, we can't do that. We promised them to help them rebuild their infrustructure, help them rebuild their armed forces, help train an adequate police force, and to support the popularly elected government. We also would be telling the families of the soldiers who have died and been permanately maimed that it meant nothing. They died in vein. We can't quit.

We bailed in Desert Storm. We encouraged the Sunnis to overthrow Saddams regime assuring them support that we didn't follow through with resulting in a slaughter. It was bad form! We can't do that again.
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

May 21st, 2006, 7:00 pm #10

In Desert Storm we did just what our Allies (who were a big part of it) had agree to- to oust Saddam from Kuwait. Had we violated this agreement no country would believe us or help us again.

As for "staying the course" in Iraq, sure we can keep pouring $billions in to rebuilt Iraq's intrastructure while the terrorist are spending $hundreds destroying it just as fast. It's much easier to destroy something than to built it so the terrorist always have the advantage here. I think we are busy fixing up the deck of the Titanic while the lower levels are filling with water.
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