A few words from europe

A few words from europe

nico
nico

February 6th, 2005, 5:43 pm #1

Hello,

i'm living in South-Germany my whole life and want to contribute some
parts here, sorry for my bad english. I read some things about europe
but the threads are some days/weeks ago now so i think its better to
start a new one.

Let's start with "being naked" first. I is called "FKK" here (being without
clothes), and before germany was re-united there was the DDR (called
eastern germany after re-union) and BRD (called western germany after re-union).

In the DDR (communism) FKK was a common lifestyle, it was allowed and wanted
by the government. The idea was "everything is allowed as long a no one feels
disturbed". At most of the beaches it was more common being naked than
wearing anything. The FKK places/beaches were (most of the times) not signed
e.g. "FKK allowed here" because it was allowed almost everywhere and they had
no fence around. This type of FKK is todays called "Ossi-FKK" (people living
in eastern germany are called "Ossis", East=Osten).

In the BRD FKK was not a common lifestyle, but allowed shortly after the big
war again. But most of the people in the BRD were very prudish, and
because of this it was not allowed everywhere, there were places dedicated to FKK, and a fence around them so no one was able to look through it. This places were "operated"
by unions and one had to become a member of such a union to be allowed to go in. Inside there were a lot of rules, e.g. no smoking, no alcohol, eating no
or only little meat. People inside stayed nude (when it was warm enough) and
did things like sun bathing and sports. One was even forced to be naked inside. This type of FKK is todays called "Wessi-FKK" (people living in
western germany are called "Wessis", West=Westen).

Now, some years after re-union, things have changed a lot. In eastern germany
a lot of FKK-places are now changed to no-FKK (because they were sold to western people and they want to make money with them), although some of the Ossi-FKK-places remained. The Wessi-FKK unions are loosing members because
younger people do not want to identify with the forces that come with the
membership in this unions. But, Ossi-FKK has spread a lot of in Western-Germany, and is now allowed at a lot of places and a lot of people are doing this. Well, it is not officially allowed, but no one cares as no one feels disturbed.

As a "counter-movement" to the "body-culture-movement" (see below), there
is now something new called "Off-Limits-FKK", that means FKK beyond the
places where it is usual. In the last summer (2004) were nearly at every weekend naked walking-tours.

Let's go away from being nude/FKK and go to bra(free) topics.
Well, in the last 10-20 years a lot of has changed here. Most of the young
women are todays wearing bras, even together with tops that are shoulder-free
or back-free and the bra-straps destroy the idea behind shoulder or back-free.
They gave up their individual female look and changed it to some sort of a
sexistic look. They show a lot of skin (because they worry to fall behind
their competitors) but do not have the courage to stay to their breast. So
they show breast, but shaped with a bra to a shape the industry says a
breast has to have. This girls now support the industry by following them and increase the pressure to the other girls to do the same.

A bra gives this industry-perfect-body look temporary. The plastic surgery
can make this look permanent.

And that's exactly what the industry wants. Why?
Well, one has to know that the german health-insurance-system is near
to its collapse (because diabetes, overweight, breast-cancer, and so on
eat up all the money), the politicans try to delay the collapse by acts
like limiting the cost a doctor or hospital can get for the medical treatments.
That lowers the income of a doctor and hospital from year to year.
Thats why more and more of them shut down their business, and build their
own plastic surgery clinic out in the green meadow and get the revenue
that the market allowes and this is a lot of.
The "private TV" (TV that gets its money from commerials) shows now every
day "breast enlargement" shows, where women are renewed completely,
get fat removed, breasts enlarged and folds removed like at the conveyor belt. This shows try to convince the the people, that this things are done
in a few days and that this is the possibility to start a new life, increase self-confidence and get success.

The economy is going down very fast, the debts of germany are increasing
from year to year and it is very hard to get a job. This year the unemployment-rate climbed above 5,000,000,000 with additional hidden
2,000,000,000 that fall out of statistics. Young people get often no
place to educate. The whole family is suffering because the doughter
gehts no job. This are the victims of this plastic surgery clinics. They
promise the girls to have much better chances to get a job with a perfect
body. Whole familys save money for the breast-enlargement of their doughter.
They do this by buying food and other things at the discounter instead of
small shops and make the jobless-problem by this much worser.
At the end, the only winner is the capitalism. When the girls realize
that they have lost almost everything, "itself", it is too late.

Fast Food (food with a lot of fat and sugar and "add-ons") spreads
here like a disease, and together with the bras-disease (nine out of ten wear
one) the breast-cancer rate increased like a disease here. Today every
eight woman is hit by breast-cancer. It is expected that this rate will
climb up much larger in the next years. At the beginning of the ninetys,
every 12. woman was hit by breast cancer here.

Today, a lot of people here work hard and much too long, because they
worry to loose their job if they do not do so. Others do not work
anything, because they have no job. Big companys are "offshoring" (moving)
a lot of jobs to eastern-europe every year, because it's much cheaper there
and this increases their revenues. But, most of the people spend a lot
of money for buying products of this companys (cell phones, cars, consumer
electronics), they enjoy this lifestyle products but do not ask
what wages the workers that made this product had.
This new type of economy trys to make money out of nearly everything, the
body, breasts, sports. Even the love between a girl and a boy: A lot of
young people do not talk to each other a lot of anymore, they do most of their communication with their (boy/girlfriend) by writing SMS
(Short Text Messages send out and received by cell phones). that means
writing thousands of SMS (in germany the people send out 25,000,000,000 SMS in the year 2003), and the provider charges about 0.20 Euro for every SMS.
This couples say, it is much easier to express emotions with smileys
in the SMS than with voice face to face.
Being topless and FKK and similar things is threatening the business of
this new form of industry, or to say it with the words of a manager: "how
should we make money of being naked, if being naked is natural?". Because
of this, they fight against this, place bras nearly everywhere, and try to
convince the young people that theis point of view is the right way.

Instead of realizing what damage they create by supporting
the wrong type of economy, a lot of the young people give up and believe
the stupid nonsense of a nazi-movement, that the immigrants are the cause
of this whole madness and vote extreme-right partys like the NPD.

But, not everything is lost. As described above, there are counter-movements
like the Off-Limits FKK, and today there are as many as never before small
shops that sell low or non-processed natural food. And there are a lot of
woman that wear nice clothes without a bra. A frind of mine was living
without a bra for 25 years and wanted to start wearing bras because she
thought to be a whole woman she has to wear such a thing because she
read in a magazine that its one of the most beautiful things a woman can
give a man, when she lets him to open and undress her bra. Well, i convinced
her that this is not the case, and now she still lives without one and
feels very comfortable. People talk to each other much too less about
their fears.

This are my words at this sunday

And this is a nice forum here.

cu,

nico
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peter
peter

February 6th, 2005, 5:52 pm #2

What a great post!!!!
Thank you and welcome! Please come back and share more.
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 6th, 2005, 6:09 pm #3

Hello,

i'm living in South-Germany my whole life and want to contribute some
parts here, sorry for my bad english. I read some things about europe
but the threads are some days/weeks ago now so i think its better to
start a new one.

Let's start with "being naked" first. I is called "FKK" here (being without
clothes), and before germany was re-united there was the DDR (called
eastern germany after re-union) and BRD (called western germany after re-union).

In the DDR (communism) FKK was a common lifestyle, it was allowed and wanted
by the government. The idea was "everything is allowed as long a no one feels
disturbed". At most of the beaches it was more common being naked than
wearing anything. The FKK places/beaches were (most of the times) not signed
e.g. "FKK allowed here" because it was allowed almost everywhere and they had
no fence around. This type of FKK is todays called "Ossi-FKK" (people living
in eastern germany are called "Ossis", East=Osten).

In the BRD FKK was not a common lifestyle, but allowed shortly after the big
war again. But most of the people in the BRD were very prudish, and
because of this it was not allowed everywhere, there were places dedicated to FKK, and a fence around them so no one was able to look through it. This places were "operated"
by unions and one had to become a member of such a union to be allowed to go in. Inside there were a lot of rules, e.g. no smoking, no alcohol, eating no
or only little meat. People inside stayed nude (when it was warm enough) and
did things like sun bathing and sports. One was even forced to be naked inside. This type of FKK is todays called "Wessi-FKK" (people living in
western germany are called "Wessis", West=Westen).

Now, some years after re-union, things have changed a lot. In eastern germany
a lot of FKK-places are now changed to no-FKK (because they were sold to western people and they want to make money with them), although some of the Ossi-FKK-places remained. The Wessi-FKK unions are loosing members because
younger people do not want to identify with the forces that come with the
membership in this unions. But, Ossi-FKK has spread a lot of in Western-Germany, and is now allowed at a lot of places and a lot of people are doing this. Well, it is not officially allowed, but no one cares as no one feels disturbed.

As a "counter-movement" to the "body-culture-movement" (see below), there
is now something new called "Off-Limits-FKK", that means FKK beyond the
places where it is usual. In the last summer (2004) were nearly at every weekend naked walking-tours.

Let's go away from being nude/FKK and go to bra(free) topics.
Well, in the last 10-20 years a lot of has changed here. Most of the young
women are todays wearing bras, even together with tops that are shoulder-free
or back-free and the bra-straps destroy the idea behind shoulder or back-free.
They gave up their individual female look and changed it to some sort of a
sexistic look. They show a lot of skin (because they worry to fall behind
their competitors) but do not have the courage to stay to their breast. So
they show breast, but shaped with a bra to a shape the industry says a
breast has to have. This girls now support the industry by following them and increase the pressure to the other girls to do the same.

A bra gives this industry-perfect-body look temporary. The plastic surgery
can make this look permanent.

And that's exactly what the industry wants. Why?
Well, one has to know that the german health-insurance-system is near
to its collapse (because diabetes, overweight, breast-cancer, and so on
eat up all the money), the politicans try to delay the collapse by acts
like limiting the cost a doctor or hospital can get for the medical treatments.
That lowers the income of a doctor and hospital from year to year.
Thats why more and more of them shut down their business, and build their
own plastic surgery clinic out in the green meadow and get the revenue
that the market allowes and this is a lot of.
The "private TV" (TV that gets its money from commerials) shows now every
day "breast enlargement" shows, where women are renewed completely,
get fat removed, breasts enlarged and folds removed like at the conveyor belt. This shows try to convince the the people, that this things are done
in a few days and that this is the possibility to start a new life, increase self-confidence and get success.

The economy is going down very fast, the debts of germany are increasing
from year to year and it is very hard to get a job. This year the unemployment-rate climbed above 5,000,000,000 with additional hidden
2,000,000,000 that fall out of statistics. Young people get often no
place to educate. The whole family is suffering because the doughter
gehts no job. This are the victims of this plastic surgery clinics. They
promise the girls to have much better chances to get a job with a perfect
body. Whole familys save money for the breast-enlargement of their doughter.
They do this by buying food and other things at the discounter instead of
small shops and make the jobless-problem by this much worser.
At the end, the only winner is the capitalism. When the girls realize
that they have lost almost everything, "itself", it is too late.

Fast Food (food with a lot of fat and sugar and "add-ons") spreads
here like a disease, and together with the bras-disease (nine out of ten wear
one) the breast-cancer rate increased like a disease here. Today every
eight woman is hit by breast-cancer. It is expected that this rate will
climb up much larger in the next years. At the beginning of the ninetys,
every 12. woman was hit by breast cancer here.

Today, a lot of people here work hard and much too long, because they
worry to loose their job if they do not do so. Others do not work
anything, because they have no job. Big companys are "offshoring" (moving)
a lot of jobs to eastern-europe every year, because it's much cheaper there
and this increases their revenues. But, most of the people spend a lot
of money for buying products of this companys (cell phones, cars, consumer
electronics), they enjoy this lifestyle products but do not ask
what wages the workers that made this product had.
This new type of economy trys to make money out of nearly everything, the
body, breasts, sports. Even the love between a girl and a boy: A lot of
young people do not talk to each other a lot of anymore, they do most of their communication with their (boy/girlfriend) by writing SMS
(Short Text Messages send out and received by cell phones). that means
writing thousands of SMS (in germany the people send out 25,000,000,000 SMS in the year 2003), and the provider charges about 0.20 Euro for every SMS.
This couples say, it is much easier to express emotions with smileys
in the SMS than with voice face to face.
Being topless and FKK and similar things is threatening the business of
this new form of industry, or to say it with the words of a manager: "how
should we make money of being naked, if being naked is natural?". Because
of this, they fight against this, place bras nearly everywhere, and try to
convince the young people that theis point of view is the right way.

Instead of realizing what damage they create by supporting
the wrong type of economy, a lot of the young people give up and believe
the stupid nonsense of a nazi-movement, that the immigrants are the cause
of this whole madness and vote extreme-right partys like the NPD.

But, not everything is lost. As described above, there are counter-movements
like the Off-Limits FKK, and today there are as many as never before small
shops that sell low or non-processed natural food. And there are a lot of
woman that wear nice clothes without a bra. A frind of mine was living
without a bra for 25 years and wanted to start wearing bras because she
thought to be a whole woman she has to wear such a thing because she
read in a magazine that its one of the most beautiful things a woman can
give a man, when she lets him to open and undress her bra. Well, i convinced
her that this is not the case, and now she still lives without one and
feels very comfortable. People talk to each other much too less about
their fears.

This are my words at this sunday

And this is a nice forum here.

cu,

nico
Welcome to BFF nico and thank you for your perspective on topfreedom and brafreedom in Europe.
I always knew that Germany and many scandinavian countries had a much healthy attitude than the West when it came to body freedom. I was hoping that with globalization, this European view would moderate our prudish western views, but unfortunately, it seems that just the opposite is happening and we are corrupting the rest of the world with our American youth-worshipping body-hiding mindset. How sad.
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John Bayko
John Bayko

February 8th, 2005, 2:29 am #4

"[...] we are corrupting the rest of the world with our American youth-worshipping body-hiding mindset"

I wouldn't give America that much credit as a cultural influence, at least these days. American culture is becoming more and more ignored as American cultural values are disconnecting with those of the rest of the developed world.

It just happens that much of the same things that American society experiences, is also experienced by others, sometimes at the same time, but sometimes at different times. For example, while the U.S has decidedly swing to the right, Venesuela and Brazil have taken distinctly leftist turns, both culturally and economically.

Language barriers are very significant. And when language is the same, time zone differences are also significant, which is why Britain and Australia have remained so culturally distinct. And even Canada is differing more and more from the U.S - probably more now than any time since World War II (and I don't actually know why, except maybe population density has finally given some abilility to have self-sustaining English news and entertainment industries...).

Some things are common - for example, capitalists are usually short sighted, and tend to have the same strategies around the world. That's not American, remember Karl Marx pointed this out well over a century ago, and he was German.
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 8th, 2005, 2:47 am #5

Well I'm thinking about the fact that American movies and TV shows are very popular all over the world.
This is bound to have some influence on fashion.
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Johny59
Johny59

February 11th, 2005, 1:32 pm #6

"[...] we are corrupting the rest of the world with our American youth-worshipping body-hiding mindset"

I wouldn't give America that much credit as a cultural influence, at least these days. American culture is becoming more and more ignored as American cultural values are disconnecting with those of the rest of the developed world.

It just happens that much of the same things that American society experiences, is also experienced by others, sometimes at the same time, but sometimes at different times. For example, while the U.S has decidedly swing to the right, Venesuela and Brazil have taken distinctly leftist turns, both culturally and economically.

Language barriers are very significant. And when language is the same, time zone differences are also significant, which is why Britain and Australia have remained so culturally distinct. And even Canada is differing more and more from the U.S - probably more now than any time since World War II (and I don't actually know why, except maybe population density has finally given some abilility to have self-sustaining English news and entertainment industries...).

Some things are common - for example, capitalists are usually short sighted, and tend to have the same strategies around the world. That's not American, remember Karl Marx pointed this out well over a century ago, and he was German.
RE:"capitalists are usually short sighted, remember Karl Marx pointed this out well"
Khe khe, dont You are bit telling the bayks (plain Russian this word means "fairy-tails")

1)What are capitalists? Wasnt the Lenin the capitalist? And wasnt a Brezhnew the one of biggest capitalists of the planet?? The proofs You may easily find at Latvian Motormuseum, I believe them have even website showing just small a part of cars he used, this "supreme" proletarianic leader.
2)Do really the fact someone is behaving property makes him stupid, or contrary it stimulates him to learn how to squeeze out the maximum profit?? What says the elementary logic!!
3)Wasnt the Karl Marx not an only false-theory loudspeaker but simultaneously an UK Satanist church leading priest, if to revealing his "little secrets" so the certain his writtings shows he clearly realize the "worthyness" of his works as him wrote "aim is to jump in the hell chasm myself but having to take with me all the world"??
4)Wasnt between teachers of Lenin the same phylosophers openly worshiping Satan what later made even Hitler to worship this Archi-Scum, for Europe enforcing pain so much??
5)Wasnt the just an undiscussable fact that Marx followers such as Lenin and Stalin plagued to death within their invented 40 years befor Hitler death-lager system namely GULAG near the 10 times more people as Hitler was been able to slaughter with his smaller scale concentration camps?? The Hitler is righteously damn by history, yet how MANY people still in Russia havent a conscience power even to say "please pardon" for many dozen of nationalities they just erased from Planet causelessly, and doing it until today in many regions like Black Sea.

Okay, I had fallen too deep in politics, yet please not provocate with mentioning in any nice light those nightmare root I had survived. If not a Marx I would had a 14 brothers and sisters of my father alive, and would not be slaughtered half of my brothers and sisters under Soviets roister, and my nation would be at least 3 times bigger if Soviets not killed about 1 000 000 of my nation pals in death-lagers and 800 000 would not be pushed to fly away forever to Australia, America, Brittain, Germany. And it all over the nation of 2 300 000 people at WW2 time due one monster phylosopher or hidden Satanist priest.
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Johny59
Johny59

February 11th, 2005, 1:46 pm #7

Well I'm thinking about the fact that American movies and TV shows are very popular all over the world.
This is bound to have some influence on fashion.
US films are much more attractive, realistic, having a positive program to tell in not schoolteachers manner.
Dream fabric...

Watch the German films, you may die off from their STYLE.
Watch the Mexican serials or from India, the vomit condition starts after the first dialogue.
Watch the French films - some are wonderful, but them are so few
Watch Russian, some are superior (yet regissors of them was later pushed to fly away from own country), while most are just sickening or at least boring.
American - some are most best I ever seen, while logically 90% are empty.

So it is with the any real art, that the pearls are growing just slowly and within big pain. Those coming out on the conveyeur band are not able to be Big never at all.
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Nat
Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 11th, 2005, 3:55 pm #8

Yes, well motion pictures are certainly an American art form.
Both the technology and concept were invented here and we probably make more movies than all the rest of the world combined.
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John Bayko
John Bayko

February 15th, 2005, 2:50 am #9

Just to be picky, check out the Lumière brothers.
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John Bayko
John Bayko

February 15th, 2005, 3:12 am #10

RE:"capitalists are usually short sighted, remember Karl Marx pointed this out well"
Khe khe, dont You are bit telling the bayks (plain Russian this word means "fairy-tails")

1)What are capitalists? Wasnt the Lenin the capitalist? And wasnt a Brezhnew the one of biggest capitalists of the planet?? The proofs You may easily find at Latvian Motormuseum, I believe them have even website showing just small a part of cars he used, this "supreme" proletarianic leader.
2)Do really the fact someone is behaving property makes him stupid, or contrary it stimulates him to learn how to squeeze out the maximum profit?? What says the elementary logic!!
3)Wasnt the Karl Marx not an only false-theory loudspeaker but simultaneously an UK Satanist church leading priest, if to revealing his "little secrets" so the certain his writtings shows he clearly realize the "worthyness" of his works as him wrote "aim is to jump in the hell chasm myself but having to take with me all the world"??
4)Wasnt between teachers of Lenin the same phylosophers openly worshiping Satan what later made even Hitler to worship this Archi-Scum, for Europe enforcing pain so much??
5)Wasnt the just an undiscussable fact that Marx followers such as Lenin and Stalin plagued to death within their invented 40 years befor Hitler death-lager system namely GULAG near the 10 times more people as Hitler was been able to slaughter with his smaller scale concentration camps?? The Hitler is righteously damn by history, yet how MANY people still in Russia havent a conscience power even to say "please pardon" for many dozen of nationalities they just erased from Planet causelessly, and doing it until today in many regions like Black Sea.

Okay, I had fallen too deep in politics, yet please not provocate with mentioning in any nice light those nightmare root I had survived. If not a Marx I would had a 14 brothers and sisters of my father alive, and would not be slaughtered half of my brothers and sisters under Soviets roister, and my nation would be at least 3 times bigger if Soviets not killed about 1 000 000 of my nation pals in death-lagers and 800 000 would not be pushed to fly away forever to Australia, America, Brittain, Germany. And it all over the nation of 2 300 000 people at WW2 time due one monster phylosopher or hidden Satanist priest.
I don't think Karl Marx would have approved at what Lenin and especially Stalin did to Russia and the other countries. Stalin was a crazy idiot.

But as an economist, Marx did give the world the first new economic theory in perhaps centuries. It was not perfect, and the world is still waiting a modern economic theory that actually works and is useful, but it was still better than the simplistic Adam Smith ideas that are so used and abused in the U.S as an excuse to make poor people poorer so that the rich can get richer.

But to the point I was making, one thing that capitalists (those who own the stocks of companies, and give direction to the company management) have in common is a growing desire to increase profits immediately, without regard to the long term consequences. Employees are looked at as an expense to be reduced, and so fewer people are paid less and made to work harder until they are spending all their time just keeping the company together and aren't able to do anything to help the company grow. The companies like that tend to collapse, or merge with other companies and start the process over again.

This is not uniqely American, as Nat implied, but a result of the profit motive in general, and can happen to companies in any culture. Americans just have more enthusiasm and less guilt over it.

And Bayko comes from Baikal, the region around the lake in Siberia.
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