What is (should be) obvious...

What is (should be) obvious...

Joined: May 17th, 2009, 5:13 pm

October 22nd, 2009, 2:57 pm #1

At this point in time, getting your body frozen after clinical death in a timely fashion is something that can be done cheap, and in a timely fashion, for most people. Everyone should be doing it by now. There is no real cost to the individual, relative to not doing it. It's a step that might save your life. It is no different from wearing a seat belt when driving your car in this respect. It is also eco-friendly and demonstrative of both a scientific worldview and optimism about human progress.

As to stabilization, that is an important yet seperate issue. That is to say, for those of us who are convinced that freezing is a good idea already, stabilization is an even better idea. But for people who don't have freezing plans, it is a meaningless one. When Melody goes out on a public forum and attacks the only providers of stabilization that currently exist, she is unfortunately tarring all of cryonics with the same brush. What the uninformed newbie would get out of it is that stabilization is immoral, and therefore freezing is also immoral. That is why I think she should tone it down. If there were more competition or she were actively promoting a better plan (to be fair sometimes she does promote another plan) it would make it seem like less a blanket attack on stabilization and storage services.

In any case, it seems that freezing (even straight) is better than nothing, moderately good stabilization is better than that, and excellent stabilization is even better still. But it is hard to publicly denigrate one without seeming to denigrate the others, especially when the masses are so ignorant on the topic.
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Joined: October 2nd, 2004, 8:27 pm

October 22nd, 2009, 4:26 pm #2

Luke says "When Melody goes out on a public forum and attacks the only providers of stabilization that currently exist, she is unfortunately tarring all of cryonics with the same brush."

I asked in this post, shortly before the thread got locked:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/m ... mmon+sense

..."Mathew provides a solution to the "professionals sitting around doing nothing waiting for months for a cryonics case to appear" problem. If Melody doesn't like his, WHAT IS HER SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM?"

Now in reply she starts a thread accusing me of "badgering" and presenting a totally unworkable plan for a standby/stabilization/transport facility: "Was not one of my very first posts an outline of how I thought SA should be revised...one, or two, competent, knowledgable persons working fulltime, coordinating standby teams of professionals from a small facility, rather than six-to-eight laymen twiddling their thumbs..." How long are the "one or two" competent people going to sit twiddling THEIR thumbs waiting months for the next service call? Before they get bored to death and quit? The RUPs will play games on their computers or tinker in the workshop to pass the time. What does the med pro with a brain do, sit and read medical literature for 40 hours a week??

Besides, there will always be a Larry Johnson (or Melody Maxim) to have something twisted to say about cryonics, no matter how good it is. That became evident with Melody when she objected to the idea of cryonics being done at a clinic where professional medical people work fulltime. She has always been the one to demand medical professionals in cryonics. Now that someone gets down to the brass tacks on how to do it, she says "you can't do that - Larry Johnson will object!"

My conclusion: If Melody doesn't want RUPs doing cryonics, and now is trying to persuade us that intelligent medical professionals will sit on their butts for months in waiting mode, then she does not want cryonics being done at all. Simple logic. And more of her true agenda is beginning to surface. Anything she has to publish from here on out should be viewed with a high degree of skepticism.

FD
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Joined: August 9th, 2006, 2:07 am

October 22nd, 2009, 4:45 pm #3

How about that? I mean-- don't retired people twiddle their thumbs anyway? Or take viagra and have a renewed sex life?
They are RETIRED... as Melody pointed out earlier. They have NOTHING ELSE TO DO. This is the centerpiece of a
cryopreservation program that would work.

Alcor is in north Scottsdale, a very livable place. I've moved near Alcor myself for the sake of being near a cryonics lab.
Certainly RETIRED professional medical people with a hankering to tinker with a new career could be living
near that lab.

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Joined: August 9th, 2006, 2:07 am

October 22nd, 2009, 5:49 pm #4

As Hugh was heard saying on Johnson's tape, you have to administer a drug to a cryonics patient who is pronounced because if you don't, he could accidently wake up. This process would be illegal in all states except OR and WA right now... so that makes those two states the ONLY states in which optimal cryonics would be legal right now.

Alcor storage site could remain in AZ. But the operational site with the REITRED PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL PEOPLE with a cell phone-- would be in Oregon or WAshington state.... at an Alcor campus of some sort-- living their RETIRED life, playing golf or whatever, and being ON CALL for the cryonics lab there.

DeWolf moved to OR for reasons he won't say but this is the central reason in my estimation. Ex Alcor Pres Mondragon is there too. As well as that other guy who pretends he has a local cryonics training office-- whose equipment is utterly fantastic-- and goes way beyond training into potential real use... Sparks.
http://www.oregoncryo.com/contact.htm

The biggest problem in cryonics is that the right hand doesn't konw what the left is doing. Everyone in cryonics thinks they can do it on their own. Ettinger even says make individual efforts. But until we get beyond and start thinking and speaking fro cryonics as a whole, we'll be in danger of corrupting the entire mission. So it's up to you, the reader, to make your view known here in the most effective cryoincs discusison that ever existed... Cold filter... and to come to agreemnt with me.

The secretiveness of Alcor and cryonic in general is DUE to the fact that you have borderline crap occuring that nobody wants to talk about because it's illegal. So... either you contineu to be part of the conspiracy of silence on that-- or wake up to my call-- and Maxim's calls... to upgrade the entire mission by thinking of it as a whole.... Holistic cryonics I guess you could call it... taking everything into account... and designing the thing on that basis.


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Joined: October 2nd, 2004, 8:27 pm

October 22nd, 2009, 5:53 pm #5

How about that? I mean-- don't retired people twiddle their thumbs anyway? Or take viagra and have a renewed sex life?
They are RETIRED... as Melody pointed out earlier. They have NOTHING ELSE TO DO. This is the centerpiece of a
cryopreservation program that would work.

Alcor is in north Scottsdale, a very livable place. I've moved near Alcor myself for the sake of being near a cryonics lab.
Certainly RETIRED professional medical people with a hankering to tinker with a new career could be living
near that lab.
The concept has not been tried, but what indication do we have that "retired professionals" would be more likely to show up when called, than currently-active professionals on contract retainer (who also do not show up when called, but gladly report for scheduled training and collect retainer fees)???

It is my humble opinion that "retired professionals" would be even less likely to show up, and more likely have family things to attend to (grandkids' birthday parties, graduations, etc.) or cruises to take, than to be sitting around twiddling their thumbs hoping they can get back into the workplace again, howbeit temporarily, and howbeit doing (shudder!) cryonics..

It is also my humble opinion that all of these nonworkable "solutions" presented in the past by Ms. Maxim are merely ploys to get cryonics to fail. That is a not unknown tactic to cause failure from within an organization - to convince its leaders to accept a strategy that is doomed to failure.

FD
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Joined: January 25th, 2007, 2:45 pm

October 22nd, 2009, 5:54 pm #6

Luke says "When Melody goes out on a public forum and attacks the only providers of stabilization that currently exist, she is unfortunately tarring all of cryonics with the same brush."

I asked in this post, shortly before the thread got locked:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/m ... mmon+sense

..."Mathew provides a solution to the "professionals sitting around doing nothing waiting for months for a cryonics case to appear" problem. If Melody doesn't like his, WHAT IS HER SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM?"

Now in reply she starts a thread accusing me of "badgering" and presenting a totally unworkable plan for a standby/stabilization/transport facility: "Was not one of my very first posts an outline of how I thought SA should be revised...one, or two, competent, knowledgable persons working fulltime, coordinating standby teams of professionals from a small facility, rather than six-to-eight laymen twiddling their thumbs..." How long are the "one or two" competent people going to sit twiddling THEIR thumbs waiting months for the next service call? Before they get bored to death and quit? The RUPs will play games on their computers or tinker in the workshop to pass the time. What does the med pro with a brain do, sit and read medical literature for 40 hours a week??

Besides, there will always be a Larry Johnson (or Melody Maxim) to have something twisted to say about cryonics, no matter how good it is. That became evident with Melody when she objected to the idea of cryonics being done at a clinic where professional medical people work fulltime. She has always been the one to demand medical professionals in cryonics. Now that someone gets down to the brass tacks on how to do it, she says "you can't do that - Larry Johnson will object!"

My conclusion: If Melody doesn't want RUPs doing cryonics, and now is trying to persuade us that intelligent medical professionals will sit on their butts for months in waiting mode, then she does not want cryonics being done at all. Simple logic. And more of her true agenda is beginning to surface. Anything she has to publish from here on out should be viewed with a high degree of skepticism.

FD
I don't follow the logic. I think that many people who post on this forum have an unfortunate tendency to immediately impugn the motives of anyone who disagrees with them. This goes for Finance Department as much as it does for Melody Maxim, and many others. I don't know what it is about this forum, or perhaps cryonics in general, that seems to attract people predisposed to this sort of paranoid thinking. Can we just assume that people really do have the motives they claim to have? It isn't as if any of us can confirm one way or the other anyway, and tossing those sorts of accusations around doesn't exactly get us anywhere.
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Joined: August 9th, 2006, 2:07 am

October 22nd, 2009, 6:01 pm #7

The concept has not been tried, but what indication do we have that "retired professionals" would be more likely to show up when called, than currently-active professionals on contract retainer (who also do not show up when called, but gladly report for scheduled training and collect retainer fees)???

It is my humble opinion that "retired professionals" would be even less likely to show up, and more likely have family things to attend to (grandkids' birthday parties, graduations, etc.) or cruises to take, than to be sitting around twiddling their thumbs hoping they can get back into the workplace again, howbeit temporarily, and howbeit doing (shudder!) cryonics..

It is also my humble opinion that all of these nonworkable "solutions" presented in the past by Ms. Maxim are merely ploys to get cryonics to fail. That is a not unknown tactic to cause failure from within an organization - to convince its leaders to accept a strategy that is doomed to failure.

FD
yeah, right. Ha ha.

On the matter of retired professionals, they're not looking to get back into the workplace. They're looking for interesting hobbies. They take their hobbies VERY seriously. I've student that market. I know it better than you do.

They would sit around the Alcor campus in Oregon boning up on everything related to a good medical treatment AS A HOBBY-- with NO PRESSURE-- feeling useful because they are ON CALL. This has never been tried. I'm saying it's worth a try.

As far as Maxim as a double agent, sounds like you had doubled up on your double expresso today.
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Joined: October 2nd, 2004, 8:27 pm

October 22nd, 2009, 6:12 pm #8

I don't follow the logic. I think that many people who post on this forum have an unfortunate tendency to immediately impugn the motives of anyone who disagrees with them. This goes for Finance Department as much as it does for Melody Maxim, and many others. I don't know what it is about this forum, or perhaps cryonics in general, that seems to attract people predisposed to this sort of paranoid thinking. Can we just assume that people really do have the motives they claim to have? It isn't as if any of us can confirm one way or the other anyway, and tossing those sorts of accusations around doesn't exactly get us anywhere.
We have had years now of her criticizing every nook and cranny of SA and now Alcor. Now let's see a detailed positively presented program of changes to cryonics that make sense and will work. It ain't gonna be one or two professionals sitting around at SA doing nothing like the RUPs do - they won't be able to stand the boredom. It ain't gonna be retired pros on retainer, who will be less likely to show up when needed than the currently actively employed pros on retainer are.

If Melody can't show us how to truly fix the problems we all know are there, she should cease her efforts to destroy the existing structure by means such as continuous attack posts and complaint mail. Whether my suspicions about her are correct (and I hope they are not) will be learned as, in her words, the "dust settles".

FD
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Joined: October 6th, 2004, 6:46 pm

October 22nd, 2009, 6:27 pm #9

the salaries being paid to the unprofessional practitioners are equal to if not more than professional medical people get paid for similar services?

Do you really think, in this economy, there is a shortage of qualified people WHO WOULD LOVE to have a cush job sitting around all day doing nothing and getting paid for it?

Jeez...
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Joined: October 6th, 2004, 6:46 pm

October 22nd, 2009, 6:29 pm #10

As Hugh was heard saying on Johnson's tape, you have to administer a drug to a cryonics patient who is pronounced because if you don't, he could accidently wake up. This process would be illegal in all states except OR and WA right now... so that makes those two states the ONLY states in which optimal cryonics would be legal right now.

Alcor storage site could remain in AZ. But the operational site with the REITRED PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL PEOPLE with a cell phone-- would be in Oregon or WAshington state.... at an Alcor campus of some sort-- living their RETIRED life, playing golf or whatever, and being ON CALL for the cryonics lab there.

DeWolf moved to OR for reasons he won't say but this is the central reason in my estimation. Ex Alcor Pres Mondragon is there too. As well as that other guy who pretends he has a local cryonics training office-- whose equipment is utterly fantastic-- and goes way beyond training into potential real use... Sparks.
http://www.oregoncryo.com/contact.htm

The biggest problem in cryonics is that the right hand doesn't konw what the left is doing. Everyone in cryonics thinks they can do it on their own. Ettinger even says make individual efforts. But until we get beyond and start thinking and speaking fro cryonics as a whole, we'll be in danger of corrupting the entire mission. So it's up to you, the reader, to make your view known here in the most effective cryoincs discusison that ever existed... Cold filter... and to come to agreemnt with me.

The secretiveness of Alcor and cryonic in general is DUE to the fact that you have borderline crap occuring that nobody wants to talk about because it's illegal. So... either you contineu to be part of the conspiracy of silence on that-- or wake up to my call-- and Maxim's calls... to upgrade the entire mission by thinking of it as a whole.... Holistic cryonics I guess you could call it... taking everything into account... and designing the thing on that basis.

Cheap labor, no regulation.

Its the American way!
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