re: darwin's manifesto

re: darwin's manifesto

Joined: October 11th, 2006, 4:20 am

January 11th, 2011, 3:13 pm #1

Mike Darwin wrote:
"The malice, venom and obvious contempt with which cryonics is attacked on [various websites] is not only unacceptable, it is intolerable. "



Well, they certainly have attacked cryonics on those sites. But IMO those sites do not amount to a hill of beans. It will have no effect on cryonics. Just let it roll off your back.


Mike Darwin wrote:

"Of course, the problem arises of how to separate the truth from the lies. This is not easy to do for people who have little or no knowledge of cryonics, medicine, or its related or supporting disciplines. The only solution for issues of that kind, for technical issues, is education; and that burden vis-à-vis cryonics, lies squarely and justly on our shoulders as cryonicists. And I will add that it is not merely a burden, but a responsibility – and one that we have not discharged well over the past decade or so. That deficiency can and will be remedied.
A more difficult task is the frank and open discussion of the social, ethical and moral implications of cryonics and its supporting technologies. "



Who cares? This sort of discussion, even on national TV, is not going to change many minds. This is a rational discussion. 99.9 percent of Americans are not going to decide anything about cryonics on a rational, conscious level. That is not how homo sapiens is constructed.


Mike Darwin wrote:
"Much worse still is the poor behavior of people like Mark Plus and Luke Parrish (both of whom I greatly respect), who start blogs, end them, start new blogs and end them again, ad infinitum. This is not a sane strategy for cryonics advocacy, and in fact, it damages cryonics by fragmenting information and discouraging others from doing a high quality and consistent job of educating the global public."




No, it don't. Cryonics, the very idea of it, just bounces off of the heads of 99.9 percent of humanity, whether or not Mark Plus is on his 144th blog or not. And get this--the words that come out of the mouths of people when you talk to them about cryonics are usually meaningless. What they say has nothing to do with how they feel about cryonics. And it is not done consciously.



Mike Darwin wrote:
"Manufacturing Mavericks But to be fair, other credible and energetic young spokesmen for cryonics don't exist because they have yet to be made - and they are made, not born. As Alcor became increasingly empowered, and as cryonics grew, bright young men began to show up on our doorstep – often unannounced. ... Thus, if cryonics is to be free of some of the misery it is currently experiencing, and if it is to have a future, then a conscious decision must be made to exercise judgment about which people, young and old who exist out there in this world of 6+ billion people, are worth effort - and then to give them everything we've got. "




Nice sentiment. But you are molding them in YOUR image, with YOUR ideas, with YOUR strategies. The same strategies that have yielded a grand total of 1000 members in 40 years.
You want to recreate YOUR failure in THEM!



Mike Darwin wrote:
The Problem of the World Wide Web
“Why are these salacious allegations about cryonicists of such profound interest to a group of non-cryonicists who clearly spend considerable amounts of their time and energy attacking cryonics, often stupidly and baselessly?”




I imagine it has something to do with L'Affaire Ted Williams. And then throw in terror management theory. We threaten the "death room" that these people have constructed. We threaten their psychological defenses against death. My theory on it, anyways....


Mike Darwin wrote:
"We should not hire people who are almost complete strangers to us, let alone promote people who are not cryonicists to positions with authority, or access to sensitive information. This seems such a commonsense point that one has to be either an idiot or a fool not to recognize it.....A recitation of the full list of sociopaths and gross incompetents who have been rapidly empowered in cryonics, at great cost in lives and money, would be equal to or greater in length than this already lengthily essay."




Agreed. And why are cryonicists so bad at hiring people? Because we are not people persons. We do not read other people well. Cryos spent most of their childhood with their noses in a book. That was how we developed this unusual sense of objectivity, all the better to apply logic to the idea of cryonics, my dear. But in doing so, we gave up a lot, e.g., the ability to read people. Know your weaknesses.



Mike Darwin wrote:

"I have spent a considerable amount of time, especially in recent years, going to and fro over the earth; I have seen the great garbage patch in the Pacific – a sterile void of petrochemical end products the size of the state of Texas, and spent days in the Central American jungles whilst ash falls down like rain, day and night, without stopping. I have walked up and down in the earth through the abandoned thermonuclear infrastructure of the previous century and the emerging subterranean earthworks being built to rid the planet of vertebrate life in the event of ‘total war’ in this century."




But have you watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate?


Mike Darwin wrote:
"Alternative Mechanisms
An institutional model that would have arguably been a better fit for cryonics is that of the egalitarian, but nevertheless quite powerful ‘secret’ fraternal organizations, of which the Free Masons is the prototype. "




Or a church?



Mike Darwin wrote:
"The attacks that have recently begun on cryonics (and the underlying reasons for them) must be dealt with, and dealt with starting now.
....Indeed, nourishing them with our own blood and treasure. If you post to ...[these websites] or any of the other hateful and destructive anti-cryonics sites, you should understand that you are directly feeding their bloodlust....
The message here is as simple as it is succinct. STOP POSTING TO THESE SITES and STOP ALL INTERACTION WITH THOSE WHO POST TO THEM, OR IN ANY WAY AID OR ABET THEM. "




Again, tempest in a teapot. Hill of beans, etc. It really doesn't matter much what they say. Here is a far bigger problem: Our ideas have been almost wholly rejected by 99.9 percent of society. And then throw in the fact that we cryos even refuse to acknowledge this and seek other strategies. We are in big trouble, but the these websites you cite have nothing to do with it.


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Joined: March 3rd, 2005, 2:52 am

January 11th, 2011, 3:43 pm #2

I have walked up and down in the earth through the abandoned thermonuclear infrastructure of the previous century and the emerging subterranean earthworks being built to rid the planet of vertebrate life in the event of total war in this century.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV

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Joined: November 30th, 2005, 4:41 am

January 12th, 2011, 5:47 am #3

Mike Darwin wrote:
"The malice, venom and obvious contempt with which cryonics is attacked on [various websites] is not only unacceptable, it is intolerable. "



Well, they certainly have attacked cryonics on those sites. But IMO those sites do not amount to a hill of beans. It will have no effect on cryonics. Just let it roll off your back.


Mike Darwin wrote:

"Of course, the problem arises of how to separate the truth from the lies. This is not easy to do for people who have little or no knowledge of cryonics, medicine, or its related or supporting disciplines. The only solution for issues of that kind, for technical issues, is education; and that burden vis-à-vis cryonics, lies squarely and justly on our shoulders as cryonicists. And I will add that it is not merely a burden, but a responsibility – and one that we have not discharged well over the past decade or so. That deficiency can and will be remedied.
A more difficult task is the frank and open discussion of the social, ethical and moral implications of cryonics and its supporting technologies. "



Who cares? This sort of discussion, even on national TV, is not going to change many minds. This is a rational discussion. 99.9 percent of Americans are not going to decide anything about cryonics on a rational, conscious level. That is not how homo sapiens is constructed.


Mike Darwin wrote:
"Much worse still is the poor behavior of people like Mark Plus and Luke Parrish (both of whom I greatly respect), who start blogs, end them, start new blogs and end them again, ad infinitum. This is not a sane strategy for cryonics advocacy, and in fact, it damages cryonics by fragmenting information and discouraging others from doing a high quality and consistent job of educating the global public."




No, it don't. Cryonics, the very idea of it, just bounces off of the heads of 99.9 percent of humanity, whether or not Mark Plus is on his 144th blog or not. And get this--the words that come out of the mouths of people when you talk to them about cryonics are usually meaningless. What they say has nothing to do with how they feel about cryonics. And it is not done consciously.



Mike Darwin wrote:
"Manufacturing Mavericks But to be fair, other credible and energetic young spokesmen for cryonics don't exist because they have yet to be made - and they are made, not born. As Alcor became increasingly empowered, and as cryonics grew, bright young men began to show up on our doorstep – often unannounced. ... Thus, if cryonics is to be free of some of the misery it is currently experiencing, and if it is to have a future, then a conscious decision must be made to exercise judgment about which people, young and old who exist out there in this world of 6+ billion people, are worth effort - and then to give them everything we've got. "




Nice sentiment. But you are molding them in YOUR image, with YOUR ideas, with YOUR strategies. The same strategies that have yielded a grand total of 1000 members in 40 years.
You want to recreate YOUR failure in THEM!



Mike Darwin wrote:
The Problem of the World Wide Web
“Why are these salacious allegations about cryonicists of such profound interest to a group of non-cryonicists who clearly spend considerable amounts of their time and energy attacking cryonics, often stupidly and baselessly?”




I imagine it has something to do with L'Affaire Ted Williams. And then throw in terror management theory. We threaten the "death room" that these people have constructed. We threaten their psychological defenses against death. My theory on it, anyways....


Mike Darwin wrote:
"We should not hire people who are almost complete strangers to us, let alone promote people who are not cryonicists to positions with authority, or access to sensitive information. This seems such a commonsense point that one has to be either an idiot or a fool not to recognize it.....A recitation of the full list of sociopaths and gross incompetents who have been rapidly empowered in cryonics, at great cost in lives and money, would be equal to or greater in length than this already lengthily essay."




Agreed. And why are cryonicists so bad at hiring people? Because we are not people persons. We do not read other people well. Cryos spent most of their childhood with their noses in a book. That was how we developed this unusual sense of objectivity, all the better to apply logic to the idea of cryonics, my dear. But in doing so, we gave up a lot, e.g., the ability to read people. Know your weaknesses.



Mike Darwin wrote:

"I have spent a considerable amount of time, especially in recent years, going to and fro over the earth; I have seen the great garbage patch in the Pacific – a sterile void of petrochemical end products the size of the state of Texas, and spent days in the Central American jungles whilst ash falls down like rain, day and night, without stopping. I have walked up and down in the earth through the abandoned thermonuclear infrastructure of the previous century and the emerging subterranean earthworks being built to rid the planet of vertebrate life in the event of ‘total war’ in this century."




But have you watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate?


Mike Darwin wrote:
"Alternative Mechanisms
An institutional model that would have arguably been a better fit for cryonics is that of the egalitarian, but nevertheless quite powerful ‘secret’ fraternal organizations, of which the Free Masons is the prototype. "




Or a church?



Mike Darwin wrote:
"The attacks that have recently begun on cryonics (and the underlying reasons for them) must be dealt with, and dealt with starting now.
....Indeed, nourishing them with our own blood and treasure. If you post to ...[these websites] or any of the other hateful and destructive anti-cryonics sites, you should understand that you are directly feeding their bloodlust....
The message here is as simple as it is succinct. STOP POSTING TO THESE SITES and STOP ALL INTERACTION WITH THOSE WHO POST TO THEM, OR IN ANY WAY AID OR ABET THEM. "




Again, tempest in a teapot. Hill of beans, etc. It really doesn't matter much what they say. Here is a far bigger problem: Our ideas have been almost wholly rejected by 99.9 percent of society. And then throw in the fact that we cryos even refuse to acknowledge this and seek other strategies. We are in big trouble, but the these websites you cite have nothing to do with it.

If you wish to take a poke at Mike's views, you can easily focus on this key quote from his manifesto:

"It is also critical that cryonicists understand that their existence and objectives are independent of nation-states, or any other human institution, for that matter."
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Joined: November 30th, 2005, 4:41 am

January 12th, 2011, 7:15 am #4

Take a look at "Exemplifying Alcors Once Proud Tradition of Technical Education & Openness"

There is a key figure in this exemplification: Leaf - Leaf - Leaf - Leaf - Leaf - Leaf.

I never had a chance to meet the man, but from what I've been told by numerous individuals over the years, he was very much a great man.
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Joined: March 3rd, 2005, 2:52 am

January 12th, 2011, 2:20 pm #5

Time to become a bit more skeptical, Mathew. One of Jerry's colleagues hinted to me years ago that Jerry had something to do with political assassinations in the U.S. in the 1960's.

Really?



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Joined: March 3rd, 2005, 2:52 am

January 12th, 2011, 2:35 pm #6

If you wish to take a poke at Mike's views, you can easily focus on this key quote from his manifesto:

"It is also critical that cryonicists understand that their existence and objectives are independent of nation-states, or any other human institution, for that matter."
RESPONSIBILITY, PROBABILITY, AND DURABILITY
We very much should not identify our own fate with that of "society" or "mankind" or even the Earth (cryonics societies should found offices off the Earth as soon as that becomes possible). Didn't we become cryonicists because we proposed to escape that which all the philosophers said was the common fate of all mankind? Floods, earthquakes, meteor impact, major war, mobs searching for us in every cranny, how could we be fazed by such trivialities having once adopted our major goal?
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Joined: November 30th, 2005, 4:41 am

January 13th, 2011, 3:01 am #7

Time to become a bit more skeptical, Mathew. One of Jerry's colleagues hinted to me years ago that Jerry had something to do with political assassinations in the U.S. in the 1960's.

Really?


Rumors are rumors, and skepticism of rumors is of value too. Do you have any evidence to backup your statement?

My primary point here is that it appears the once proud tradition came to an end not long after Jerry's departure from the scene, and those who remained were not able to keep it together and the organization fractured. If Jerry were still alive to this very day, my guess is the history of cryonics would have unfolded very differently.
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Joined: March 3rd, 2005, 2:52 am

January 13th, 2011, 3:10 am #8

I find this puzzling statement in Mike Darwin's interview with Jerry Leaf, published back in 1986:
When I came back (we were quietly reinserted into Germany after the Southeast Asian operations) and I was cycled back to the US for a period of time (during which time I was involved in additional covert operations here). . .
Considering that Jerry's "covert operations" in Southeast Asia apparently involved assassinating people, what could his statement about "additional covert operations here," in the U.S., mean?





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Joined: November 30th, 2005, 4:41 am

January 13th, 2011, 3:24 am #9

RESPONSIBILITY, PROBABILITY, AND DURABILITY
We very much should not identify our own fate with that of "society" or "mankind" or even the Earth (cryonics societies should found offices off the Earth as soon as that becomes possible). Didn't we become cryonicists because we proposed to escape that which all the philosophers said was the common fate of all mankind? Floods, earthquakes, meteor impact, major war, mobs searching for us in every cranny, how could we be fazed by such trivialities having once adopted our major goal?
Mike's cowboy attitude may have served well when things needed to get done in the early days of cryonics where the only people that we could look to were other cryonicists. Things are a little different today in that we have good relations with many different institutions, organizations, businesses, officials, etc.; and running roughshod over established business relations is a great way to shorten a career in cryonics.
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Joined: November 30th, 2005, 4:41 am

January 13th, 2011, 3:30 am #10

I find this puzzling statement in Mike Darwin's interview with Jerry Leaf, published back in 1986:
When I came back (we were quietly reinserted into Germany after the Southeast Asian operations) and I was cycled back to the US for a period of time (during which time I was involved in additional covert operations here). . .
Considering that Jerry's "covert operations" in Southeast Asia apparently involved assassinating people, what could his statement about "additional covert operations here," in the U.S., mean?




You are presenting a question, not evidence of anything.
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