From Pellaton to Magic Lever: auto-winding by excentric pawls...

From Pellaton to Magic Lever: auto-winding by excentric pawls...

Joined: May 5th, 2009, 1:22 pm

May 18th, 2012, 2:22 am #1


(I hope I haven't posted this here before)

As discussion of this topic recently picked up again, I thought I would present some of what I have mapped out so far on the topic...

The following list is arranged thematically to represent a progression of simplification from Pellaton through to Magic Lever, rather than a chronological sequence. (If you want a chronological list, the dates are included)
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">The original excentic auto-winding system was invented and patented in 1946 by Albert Pellaton for IWC and the calibre 85 was produced from 1950.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">IWC 85 (1950) -<span>  </span>Cam on rotor hub, ruby cam followers, spring-tensioned pawl fingers both acting on same side of pawl wheel.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Orient Super Auto (1961) – Identical to Pellaton system.<span>  </span>Cal 670 from 1963 and variants (e.g. 676) also used a Pellaton system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Shanghai SS2 (1965) -<span>  </span>Same as Pellaton but maybe more compact.<span>  </span>Slow development, limited production, superseded by SS4 with similar winding system, made until mid 1970s
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Timex M31 (1957) -<span>  </span>Almost identical system to Pellaton, but unjewelled and with circular cam.<span>  </span>Very cheap.<span>  </span>Produced until 1980.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Longines 19A (1952) - Single pawl finger so only winds when cam apex is advancing towards cam follower.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Cyma 470 (1953) -<span>  </span>Split system with two cam followers each driving a single pawl.<span>  </span>Looks complicated.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">AHS 154 (1962) -<span>  </span>Stamped sheet-metal version of Cyma system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Citizen 3KS (1958) - <span> </span>Similar to Pellaton, but with lever pivot opposite the pawl wheel, with pawls reaching around the rotor axis, engaging opposite sides of the wheel.<span>  </span>Pawls are tensioned against each other.<span>  </span>Massively over-engineered module and only made for a few months.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Revue 87 (late 1950s) - <span> </span>Geometrically similar to Citizen, but with simple stamped lever encircling the cam.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Otero 77 (late 1960s) - <span> </span>Two pawls driven directly from a crank pin on the rotor hub, engaging opposite sides of the pawl wheel, tensioned by leaf springs outside of each pawl.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Seiko (1959) -<span>  </span>Similar to Otero, but pawls cut from a single piece of metal and therefore self-tensioning.<span>  </span>Late 1960s 7009 variant dispenses with auto module bridge by placing crank on an offset wheel driven by the rotor.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Orient, Hamazawa, Hangzhou, Golden Time, Sea-Gull, Fujita, Liaocheng -<span>  </span>Same as either version of Seiko system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 

 
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Joined: September 1st, 2008, 1:36 pm

May 18th, 2012, 10:25 am #2

,,,,,,,,,,,>> recently purchased a chinese made watch. the movement is unmarked automatic and I`m guessing it has 21 jewels. Looking at the dial, there is a date at 3 o`clock and a subdual for seconds a 9 o`clock. The crown is at 3 o`clock as well. It is handwind as well as auto but I found it interesting that it only winds up in one direction. So far, I`m surprised about its accuracy which is about -7 sec/day.
Do you know anything about this kind of movement?

I don`t make things. I make things better !
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Joined: June 19th, 2009, 6:51 pm

May 18th, 2012, 2:09 pm #3

'watch' doesn't give us much to go on

------------------------------------------

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Joined: June 19th, 2009, 6:51 pm

May 18th, 2012, 2:16 pm #4

(I hope I haven't posted this here before)

As discussion of this topic recently picked up again, I thought I would present some of what I have mapped out so far on the topic...

The following list is arranged thematically to represent a progression of simplification from Pellaton through to Magic Lever, rather than a chronological sequence. (If you want a chronological list, the dates are included)
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">The original excentic auto-winding system was invented and patented in 1946 by Albert Pellaton for IWC and the calibre 85 was produced from 1950.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">IWC 85 (1950) -<span>  </span>Cam on rotor hub, ruby cam followers, spring-tensioned pawl fingers both acting on same side of pawl wheel.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Orient Super Auto (1961) – Identical to Pellaton system.<span>  </span>Cal 670 from 1963 and variants (e.g. 676) also used a Pellaton system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Shanghai SS2 (1965) -<span>  </span>Same as Pellaton but maybe more compact.<span>  </span>Slow development, limited production, superseded by SS4 with similar winding system, made until mid 1970s
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Timex M31 (1957) -<span>  </span>Almost identical system to Pellaton, but unjewelled and with circular cam.<span>  </span>Very cheap.<span>  </span>Produced until 1980.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Longines 19A (1952) - Single pawl finger so only winds when cam apex is advancing towards cam follower.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Cyma 470 (1953) -<span>  </span>Split system with two cam followers each driving a single pawl.<span>  </span>Looks complicated.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">AHS 154 (1962) -<span>  </span>Stamped sheet-metal version of Cyma system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Citizen 3KS (1958) - <span> </span>Similar to Pellaton, but with lever pivot opposite the pawl wheel, with pawls reaching around the rotor axis, engaging opposite sides of the wheel.<span>  </span>Pawls are tensioned against each other.<span>  </span>Massively over-engineered module and only made for a few months.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Revue 87 (late 1950s) - <span> </span>Geometrically similar to Citizen, but with simple stamped lever encircling the cam.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Otero 77 (late 1960s) - <span> </span>Two pawls driven directly from a crank pin on the rotor hub, engaging opposite sides of the pawl wheel, tensioned by leaf springs outside of each pawl.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Seiko (1959) -<span>  </span>Similar to Otero, but pawls cut from a single piece of metal and therefore self-tensioning.<span>  </span>Late 1960s 7009 variant dispenses with auto module bridge by placing crank on an offset wheel driven by the rotor.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Orient, Hamazawa, Hangzhou, Golden Time, Sea-Gull, Fujita, Liaocheng -<span>  </span>Same as either version of Seiko system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 

 
but did add a simpler mechanism.

I notice the absence of Semag in the list LOL

------------------------------------------

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Joined: September 1st, 2008, 1:36 pm

May 19th, 2012, 12:30 am #5

'watch' doesn't give us much to go on

------------------------------------------

............ >>. posted some but Zeke is guarding this place and wouldn`t wanna drive him mad

I don`t make things. I make things better !
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Joined: September 1st, 2008, 1:36 pm

May 19th, 2012, 12:42 am #6

(I hope I haven't posted this here before)

As discussion of this topic recently picked up again, I thought I would present some of what I have mapped out so far on the topic...

The following list is arranged thematically to represent a progression of simplification from Pellaton through to Magic Lever, rather than a chronological sequence. (If you want a chronological list, the dates are included)
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">The original excentic auto-winding system was invented and patented in 1946 by Albert Pellaton for IWC and the calibre 85 was produced from 1950.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">IWC 85 (1950) -<span>  </span>Cam on rotor hub, ruby cam followers, spring-tensioned pawl fingers both acting on same side of pawl wheel.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Orient Super Auto (1961) – Identical to Pellaton system.<span>  </span>Cal 670 from 1963 and variants (e.g. 676) also used a Pellaton system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Shanghai SS2 (1965) -<span>  </span>Same as Pellaton but maybe more compact.<span>  </span>Slow development, limited production, superseded by SS4 with similar winding system, made until mid 1970s
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Timex M31 (1957) -<span>  </span>Almost identical system to Pellaton, but unjewelled and with circular cam.<span>  </span>Very cheap.<span>  </span>Produced until 1980.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Longines 19A (1952) - Single pawl finger so only winds when cam apex is advancing towards cam follower.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Cyma 470 (1953) -<span>  </span>Split system with two cam followers each driving a single pawl.<span>  </span>Looks complicated.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">AHS 154 (1962) -<span>  </span>Stamped sheet-metal version of Cyma system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Citizen 3KS (1958) - <span> </span>Similar to Pellaton, but with lever pivot opposite the pawl wheel, with pawls reaching around the rotor axis, engaging opposite sides of the wheel.<span>  </span>Pawls are tensioned against each other.<span>  </span>Massively over-engineered module and only made for a few months.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Revue 87 (late 1950s) - <span> </span>Geometrically similar to Citizen, but with simple stamped lever encircling the cam.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Otero 77 (late 1960s) - <span> </span>Two pawls driven directly from a crank pin on the rotor hub, engaging opposite sides of the pawl wheel, tensioned by leaf springs outside of each pawl.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Seiko (1959) -<span>  </span>Similar to Otero, but pawls cut from a single piece of metal and therefore self-tensioning.<span>  </span>Late 1960s 7009 variant dispenses with auto module bridge by placing crank on an offset wheel driven by the rotor.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Orient, Hamazawa, Hangzhou, Golden Time, Sea-Gull, Fujita, Liaocheng -<span>  </span>Same as either version of Seiko system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 

 
.............. >>> reading somewhere that the auto wind was originaly invented or made by Zenith (?????) but Bretling was the 1st to put it in production.

I don`t make things. I make things better !
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Joined: June 19th, 2009, 6:51 pm

May 19th, 2012, 12:58 am #7

............ >>. posted some but Zeke is guarding this place and wouldn`t wanna drive him mad

I don`t make things. I make things better !
so he isn't always that quick to reduce them in the INVICTANATOR!

------------------------------------------

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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 11:34 pm

May 19th, 2012, 1:35 am #8

(I hope I haven't posted this here before)

As discussion of this topic recently picked up again, I thought I would present some of what I have mapped out so far on the topic...

The following list is arranged thematically to represent a progression of simplification from Pellaton through to Magic Lever, rather than a chronological sequence. (If you want a chronological list, the dates are included)
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">The original excentic auto-winding system was invented and patented in 1946 by Albert Pellaton for IWC and the calibre 85 was produced from 1950.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">IWC 85 (1950) -<span>  </span>Cam on rotor hub, ruby cam followers, spring-tensioned pawl fingers both acting on same side of pawl wheel.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Orient Super Auto (1961) – Identical to Pellaton system.<span>  </span>Cal 670 from 1963 and variants (e.g. 676) also used a Pellaton system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Shanghai SS2 (1965) -<span>  </span>Same as Pellaton but maybe more compact.<span>  </span>Slow development, limited production, superseded by SS4 with similar winding system, made until mid 1970s
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Timex M31 (1957) -<span>  </span>Almost identical system to Pellaton, but unjewelled and with circular cam.<span>  </span>Very cheap.<span>  </span>Produced until 1980.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Longines 19A (1952) - Single pawl finger so only winds when cam apex is advancing towards cam follower.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Cyma 470 (1953) -<span>  </span>Split system with two cam followers each driving a single pawl.<span>  </span>Looks complicated.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">AHS 154 (1962) -<span>  </span>Stamped sheet-metal version of Cyma system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Citizen 3KS (1958) - <span> </span>Similar to Pellaton, but with lever pivot opposite the pawl wheel, with pawls reaching around the rotor axis, engaging opposite sides of the wheel.<span>  </span>Pawls are tensioned against each other.<span>  </span>Massively over-engineered module and only made for a few months.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Revue 87 (late 1950s) - <span> </span>Geometrically similar to Citizen, but with simple stamped lever encircling the cam.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Otero 77 (late 1960s) - <span> </span>Two pawls driven directly from a crank pin on the rotor hub, engaging opposite sides of the pawl wheel, tensioned by leaf springs outside of each pawl.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Seiko (1959) -<span>  </span>Similar to Otero, but pawls cut from a single piece of metal and therefore self-tensioning.<span>  </span>Late 1960s 7009 variant dispenses with auto module bridge by placing crank on an offset wheel driven by the rotor.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">Orient, Hamazawa, Hangzhou, Golden Time, Sea-Gull, Fujita, Liaocheng -<span>  </span>Same as either version of Seiko system.
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;">

 

 
You do say "identical to" the Pellaton (IWC) ...

I've not found that statement in any of my research yet [see my latest response on your other post]... are you claiming the "identicality" based on:
1. your own observation of the actual movements?

2. a statement you found online (or some printed source)?

3. or are you using "identical" when you can only prove "similar"??

I'm not trying to give you hard time ... it's just that I've been trying to "nail down" the connection & find some definitive statements/diagrams/etc. somewhere online or in print, but the closest I get is Japanese writers who note the "similarity" but haven't (apparently) yet had the confidence to claim "identicality" and who don't offer proof of any legal connection (like a licensing agreement) between IWC & Orient that would have allowed them to legally use an "identical" system of auto-wind back then.

===============================================


Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
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Joined: May 5th, 2009, 1:22 pm

May 19th, 2012, 7:41 am #9

i.e. I could not see any way in which it diverged from the patented design. I might be wrong.

What I posted above started out as some notes for my own reference, but I thought it might be of some interest to others here. It certainly is not intended to be authoritative.

I would certainly appreciate some input into this discussion by somebody with expertise with patents as I would be keen to know how much divergence from the patent would be necessary to avoid a license agreement. Comparing what I can see of the Orient system with the diagrams submitted by Pellaton, it seems to me that at a functional level any difference would be very subtle.

But even with the Timex design, how critical (in terms of patent protection) is the cam profile or whether or not jewels are incorporated into the cam followers? Timex were building them in vast quantities from as early as 1957.

Or did IWC only maintain the patent for 10 years?
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Joined: May 5th, 2009, 1:22 pm

May 19th, 2012, 7:48 am #10

,,,,,,,,,,,>> recently purchased a chinese made watch. the movement is unmarked automatic and I`m guessing it has 21 jewels. Looking at the dial, there is a date at 3 o`clock and a subdual for seconds a 9 o`clock. The crown is at 3 o`clock as well. It is handwind as well as auto but I found it interesting that it only winds up in one direction. So far, I`m surprised about its accuracy which is about -7 sec/day.
Do you know anything about this kind of movement?

I don`t make things. I make things better !
I can think of a couple of Chinese movements that fit your description, but the one that's mostly doing the rounds at the moment would be the Sea-Gull ST25. I think either Parnis or Tao International use an ST25 in the seconds-at-9 and date-at-3 configuration.

Somebody on another forum who has an ST25 with power-reserve indicator reckons it will fully wind in only 2 hours. If that is correct, then I'm impressed as my ST25 has a total reserve of 51 hours! Goes to show that unidirectional auto-winding can be every bit as efficient as bidirectional.
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