Otter Creek Church: a Community Church?

Otter Creek Church: a Community Church?

Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

August 26th, 2006, 7:55 am #1

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>I have just re-visited Otter Creek’s new-formatted website:
Its story: “…while our heritage is in God and His Son, our history is one of a community congregation that welcomes all comers and seeks opportunities to serve and comfort in His name.” [emph. d.c.]

Its mission: “The Otter Creek Church is a Christ-led, Spirit-powered, Grace-motivated family of believers. Our mission is to:
  • reach up through worship and holy living
  • reach in by fostering community and maturity
  • reach out through service, witness and influence
God is changing the world through us as we become Christ’s presence in this place.”

Its faith: “In a religious world where there is so much variety and divergence, it’s important for a community of faith to be open about what they believe. It is in the spirit of that openness that Otter Creek points to the following matters as important & central to its faith. These matters are the core of us, and though our convictions extend beyond what we mention here, these beliefs are what we consider to be necessary for fellowship in Jesus.

“You won’t find anything strange or out of line with the beliefs of most Christians. We provide this statement of faith, not to explain how we are distinct from everybody around us, but to testify that we have a great deal in common with all those who claim Jesus as Lord and who take the Bible seriously.”

Some of the itemized statements no longer consider baptism as a necessary or the ultimate step in the conversion process—or at least … are inconsistent or contradictory. Notice:
  • “Salvation is by God’s grace, through Christ’s cross, and a result of the Spirit’s active work. It is received through faith. It is sealed in confession and baptism. It is demonstrated in a life lived under the lordship of Jesus.
  • “There is one Church. She is the community of people who have trusted in Jesus to make them right with God and to send the Holy Spirit to make them more like God. The church is a “commissioned people,” partnering with God to accomplish His purposes in this world.
  • “God has given His church special ways in which we can draw close to Him personally and enjoy His blessings. These include baptism [sounds like an after-the-fact … in the church], prayer, worship, preaching, the Supper, Bible study, spiritual gifts, fasting, and relationship with each other and Himself.”
Its leaders: The names of 15 elders are listed. The list is a portion of a page with no pictures, no contact information, etc.—in comparison to pages of info on the admin staff and ministers both men and women.

Whereas Tim Woodroof, “functions as our ‘Senior Minister,’ coordinating the ministry team, working directly with the elders, and being a spokesman for the church

Its other activities: In the TGIW (Thank God it’s Wednesday) section, we read:
  • That’s right; Wednesday nights do count at Otter Creek! We’re not saying you have to attend church on Wednesday in order to please God or get your “ticket punched.” What we are saying is during the summer months of June, July and August, a gifted mix of speakers, authors, musicians, and actors will join us on Wednesday evenings @ 7pm to inspire and challenge. You may just find yourself saying, “Thank God it’s Wednesday!
Musicians! “Join us for a wonderful musical experience” with Phil Keaggy in concert—that was on August 23. Some of the other activities scheduled … and the women speakers:
  • JUNE 7 -- Beyond the DaVinci Code: The Real Story of Jesus & Women
    Dr. Amy Jill Levine
  • JUNE 14 -- How the Trinity Keeps the Christian Life on Track
    [Wasn’t the “direct influence” of God’s Spirit upon the Christian or the church taught? Hmmm! dc]
    Dr. Leonard Allen
  • JUNE 28 -- FX! A Family Worship Experience [What “worship” experience?]
  • AUGUST 9 -- Vespers with a message from Kathleen Flood on
    "Why Sabbath?"
Is this the Otter Creek [Community] Church?

Donnie</font>
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

August 26th, 2006, 8:07 am #2

Source: <font size=4>OtterCreek</font> <font size=3>Church</font>

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>“The Musical Worship”: “Brandon [Scott Thomas] has been on the ministry team at Otter Creek since November, 1995. He leads our regular worship times, plans special events, organizes the choir and praise team ministries and works with a wide variety of gifted people to enrich our worship experiences. He also plans our Summer Life Series, various outreach events, & plays a leading role in the Zoe Worship Ministry.

Praise Teams
  • The members of the praise teams serve primarily as praise leaders [men and women] for each service at Otter Creek. They also direct thoughts through means of special songs and readings. Members of the praise team will be [future?] expected to live as worshippers.
Musical Productions
  • We have established a tradition of excellence in the arts. Traditionally, we do a full-scale musical with costumes, stage, and lighting at Easter and a smaller-scaled production at Christmas. Both productions are approached from a highly professional point of view and with the expectation that we can have high quality productions in churches today. We would love for you to be a part of that with us. Believe me, there IS a place for YOU!”
Is this the Otter Creek [Community] Church?

Donnie [emphases mine]</font>
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

August 26th, 2006, 5:35 pm #3

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>I have just re-visited Otter Creek’s new-formatted website:
Its story: “…while our heritage is in God and His Son, our history is one of a community congregation that welcomes all comers and seeks opportunities to serve and comfort in His name.” [emph. d.c.]

Its mission: “The Otter Creek Church is a Christ-led, Spirit-powered, Grace-motivated family of believers. Our mission is to:
  • reach up through worship and holy living
  • reach in by fostering community and maturity
  • reach out through service, witness and influence
God is changing the world through us as we become Christ’s presence in this place.”

Its faith: “In a religious world where there is so much variety and divergence, it’s important for a community of faith to be open about what they believe. It is in the spirit of that openness that Otter Creek points to the following matters as important & central to its faith. These matters are the core of us, and though our convictions extend beyond what we mention here, these beliefs are what we consider to be necessary for fellowship in Jesus.

“You won’t find anything strange or out of line with the beliefs of most Christians. We provide this statement of faith, not to explain how we are distinct from everybody around us, but to testify that we have a great deal in common with all those who claim Jesus as Lord and who take the Bible seriously.”

Some of the itemized statements no longer consider baptism as a necessary or the ultimate step in the conversion process—or at least … are inconsistent or contradictory. Notice:
  • “Salvation is by God’s grace, through Christ’s cross, and a result of the Spirit’s active work. It is received through faith. It is sealed in confession and baptism. It is demonstrated in a life lived under the lordship of Jesus.
  • “There is one Church. She is the community of people who have trusted in Jesus to make them right with God and to send the Holy Spirit to make them more like God. The church is a “commissioned people,” partnering with God to accomplish His purposes in this world.
  • “God has given His church special ways in which we can draw close to Him personally and enjoy His blessings. These include baptism [sounds like an after-the-fact … in the church], prayer, worship, preaching, the Supper, Bible study, spiritual gifts, fasting, and relationship with each other and Himself.”
Its leaders: The names of 15 elders are listed. The list is a portion of a page with no pictures, no contact information, etc.—in comparison to pages of info on the admin staff and ministers both men and women.

Whereas Tim Woodroof, “functions as our ‘Senior Minister,’ coordinating the ministry team, working directly with the elders, and being a spokesman for the church

Its other activities: In the TGIW (Thank God it’s Wednesday) section, we read:
  • That’s right; Wednesday nights do count at Otter Creek! We’re not saying you have to attend church on Wednesday in order to please God or get your “ticket punched.” What we are saying is during the summer months of June, July and August, a gifted mix of speakers, authors, musicians, and actors will join us on Wednesday evenings @ 7pm to inspire and challenge. You may just find yourself saying, “Thank God it’s Wednesday!
Musicians! “Join us for a wonderful musical experience” with Phil Keaggy in concert—that was on August 23. Some of the other activities scheduled … and the women speakers:
  • JUNE 7 -- Beyond the DaVinci Code: The Real Story of Jesus & Women
    Dr. Amy Jill Levine
  • JUNE 14 -- How the Trinity Keeps the Christian Life on Track
    [Wasn’t the “direct influence” of God’s Spirit upon the Christian or the church taught? Hmmm! dc]
    Dr. Leonard Allen
  • JUNE 28 -- FX! A Family Worship Experience [What “worship” experience?]
  • AUGUST 9 -- Vespers with a message from Kathleen Flood on
    "Why Sabbath?"
Is this the Otter Creek [Community] Church?

Donnie</font>
NOT TO FORGET THAT THEY BOAST ABOUT HAVING LOTS OF LIPSCOMB PROFESSORS!

The feminists and lesbian theologians who have TAKEN CAPTIVE the Methodists and other worship SOPHIA/ZOE as Goddess worship. Rubel Shelly and John York have a take off in their REIMAGING the church. They claim to have NEW GLASSES through which they get visions.

The ZOE or "mother of the Gods" is the prophecy of the end time MOTHER OF HARLOTS. John says of her speakers, singers and musicians that they are SORCERERS.

Having a feminists DO the gospel of Judas is a MARK of the SECT of Cainites or Orphites or SERPENT WORSHIPERS. Jude points to The Book of Enoch to show FOR WHOM God will come with ten thousand angels to EXECUTE judgment on the UNGODLY. Enoch and others show how SATAN caused the Fall by using the JUBAL character (who handled instruments without authority) to form mixed-sex choirs, use instruments and all of the seductive power of women. This authority is AUTHENTIA which is both erotic and murderous. The Mother of Harlots needs a name.
  • <font color = blue>Some have identified the Ophites with the false teachers denounced in the Epistle of Jude as filthy dreamers, who "defile the flesh, and set at naught dominion, and rail at dignities," who "went in the way of Cain, and ran riotously in the error of Balaam for hire, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah," as "wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever." The resemblance is certainly very striking, and those heretics may have been the forerunners of the Ophites of the second century. </font>
The book of Enoch identifies the YOUTHFUL type of Jubal, Jabal, Tubal-Cain and Naamah (the enchantress) as having been USED by Satan. He tought them how to form choirs, use instruments, use seductive clothing and to seduce the SETHITES away from the Living Word. It is the MUSICAL DECEIVERS for who God comes to execute judment because they are CAINITES or KENITES. Isaiah 30 defines HELL as specificially prepared for drive the MUSICAL SORCERERS back into hell to the beat of the same instruments Lucifer brought into the garden of Eden.
  • <font color = blue>A book entitled "the Gospel of Judas" was circulated among them. </font>
Hesoid could have been the source for John's definiton of the Babylon Harlot in Revelation 17-18. She USES speakers, singers, musicians and ALL unholy "staff infection" and John identifies them as SORCERERS. The OPHIS points to the sOPHISts or the serpents or musical enchanters in Eden. Lucifer or ZOE is called the "singing and harp playing prostitue" who stole your money AND your souls. Satan is really SHEtan and Paul more than we do when warning about EVE who was wholly seduced and gave birth to that wicked one, Cain meaning "a musical Mark." The MUSES are the LOCUSTS under Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon:
  • <font color=blue>the Muses of Olympus, daughters of Zeus who holds the aegis:

    (ll. 26-28) `Shepherds of the wilderness, wretched things of shame, mere bellies, we know how to speak many false things as though they were true; but we know, when we will, to utter true things.'

    (ll. 29-35) So said the ready-voiced daughters of great Zeus, and they plucked and gave me a rod,

    a shoot of sturdy laurel, a marvellous thing,
    and breathed into me a divine voice
    to celebrate things that shall be and things there were aforetime;and they bade me sing of the race of the blessed gods that are eternally,

    but ever to sing of themselves both first and last.</font>
Sophia is called the SERPENT and ZOE (Lucifer) is called the BEAST and the female instructing principle. They force the little dumb patriarchal Jehovah to form musical worship teams to WORSHIP SOPHIA AND ZOE. It is not possible to worship God when Sophia-Zoe are bring "menstrual fluid" into the pulpit and among the new Gnostic ALSO into the communion wine. Don't DRINK out of any otter polluted pool.

<font color=blue>Chapter XXX.-Doctrines of the Ophites and Sethians.

1. Others, again, portentously declare that there exists, in the power of Bythus, a certain primary light, blessed, incorruptible, and infinite: this is the Father of all, and is styled the first man.

They also maintain that his Ennoea, going forth from him, produced a son, and that this is the son of man-the second man. Below these, again, is the Holy Spirit, and under this superior spirit the elements were separated from each other, viz., water, darkness, the abyss, chaos, above which they declare the Spirit was borne, calling him the first woman.
  • Afterwards, they maintain, the first man, with his son, delighting over the beauty of the Spirit-that is,
    • of the woman-and shedding light upon her,

      begat by her an incorruptible light, the third male, whom they call Christ,-the son of the first and second man,

      and of the Holy Spirit, the first woman.
2. The father and son thus both had intercourse with the woman (whom they also call the mother of the living) [Eve, ZOE]. When, however, she could not bear nor receive into herself the greatness of the lights,
  • they declare that she was filled to repletion, and became ebullient on the left side;

    and that thus their only son Christ, as belonging to the right side, and ever tending to what was higher,

    was immediately caught up with his mother to form an incorruptible Aeon. This constitutes the true and holy Church, which has become the appellation, the meeting together, and the union of the father of all, of the first man, of the son, of the second man, of Christ their son, and of the woman who has been mentioned.
3. They teach, however, that the power which proceeded from the woman by ebullition, being besprinkled with light, fell downward from the place occupied by its progenitors, yet possessing by its own will that besprinkling of light; and it they call Sinistra, Prunicus, and Sophia, as well as masculo-feminine. </font>
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Joined: August 3rd, 2006, 12:51 pm

August 27th, 2006, 4:20 pm #4

Source: <font size=4>OtterCreek</font> <font size=3>Church</font>

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>“The Musical Worship”: “Brandon [Scott Thomas] has been on the ministry team at Otter Creek since November, 1995. He leads our regular worship times, plans special events, organizes the choir and praise team ministries and works with a wide variety of gifted people to enrich our worship experiences. He also plans our Summer Life Series, various outreach events, & plays a leading role in the Zoe Worship Ministry.

Praise Teams
  • The members of the praise teams serve primarily as praise leaders [men and women] for each service at Otter Creek. They also direct thoughts through means of special songs and readings. Members of the praise team will be [future?] expected to live as worshippers.
Musical Productions
  • We have established a tradition of excellence in the arts. Traditionally, we do a full-scale musical with costumes, stage, and lighting at Easter and a smaller-scaled production at Christmas. Both productions are approached from a highly professional point of view and with the expectation that we can have high quality productions in churches today. We would love for you to be a part of that with us. Believe me, there IS a place for YOU!”
Is this the Otter Creek [Community] Church?

Donnie [emphases mine]</font>
This thread is sick..

We have a christian who comes in late at service to avoid the contemporary songs...sits in the balcony and finds negative reviews of his congregation to spread to the world through his website..

Then we have a christian who stays at home and doesn't attend a congregation but sits on his computer and tells people that those who are attending and worshipping are wrong to sing in the assembly and for having paid preachers...

Though they are both christians in the body of Christ...I ask...Are they qualified to sit in judgement of Otter Creek and Madison...What do you think?

God bless,Peck
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Jimmy Joe
Jimmy Joe

August 28th, 2006, 2:59 am #5

NOT TO FORGET THAT THEY BOAST ABOUT HAVING LOTS OF LIPSCOMB PROFESSORS!

The feminists and lesbian theologians who have TAKEN CAPTIVE the Methodists and other worship SOPHIA/ZOE as Goddess worship. Rubel Shelly and John York have a take off in their REIMAGING the church. They claim to have NEW GLASSES through which they get visions.

The ZOE or "mother of the Gods" is the prophecy of the end time MOTHER OF HARLOTS. John says of her speakers, singers and musicians that they are SORCERERS.

Having a feminists DO the gospel of Judas is a MARK of the SECT of Cainites or Orphites or SERPENT WORSHIPERS. Jude points to The Book of Enoch to show FOR WHOM God will come with ten thousand angels to EXECUTE judgment on the UNGODLY. Enoch and others show how SATAN caused the Fall by using the JUBAL character (who handled instruments without authority) to form mixed-sex choirs, use instruments and all of the seductive power of women. This authority is AUTHENTIA which is both erotic and murderous. The Mother of Harlots needs a name.
  • <font color = blue>Some have identified the Ophites with the false teachers denounced in the Epistle of Jude as filthy dreamers, who "defile the flesh, and set at naught dominion, and rail at dignities," who "went in the way of Cain, and ran riotously in the error of Balaam for hire, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah," as "wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever." The resemblance is certainly very striking, and those heretics may have been the forerunners of the Ophites of the second century. </font>
The book of Enoch identifies the YOUTHFUL type of Jubal, Jabal, Tubal-Cain and Naamah (the enchantress) as having been USED by Satan. He tought them how to form choirs, use instruments, use seductive clothing and to seduce the SETHITES away from the Living Word. It is the MUSICAL DECEIVERS for who God comes to execute judment because they are CAINITES or KENITES. Isaiah 30 defines HELL as specificially prepared for drive the MUSICAL SORCERERS back into hell to the beat of the same instruments Lucifer brought into the garden of Eden.
  • <font color = blue>A book entitled "the Gospel of Judas" was circulated among them. </font>
Hesoid could have been the source for John's definiton of the Babylon Harlot in Revelation 17-18. She USES speakers, singers, musicians and ALL unholy "staff infection" and John identifies them as SORCERERS. The OPHIS points to the sOPHISts or the serpents or musical enchanters in Eden. Lucifer or ZOE is called the "singing and harp playing prostitue" who stole your money AND your souls. Satan is really SHEtan and Paul more than we do when warning about EVE who was wholly seduced and gave birth to that wicked one, Cain meaning "a musical Mark." The MUSES are the LOCUSTS under Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon:
  • <font color=blue>the Muses of Olympus, daughters of Zeus who holds the aegis:

    (ll. 26-28) `Shepherds of the wilderness, wretched things of shame, mere bellies, we know how to speak many false things as though they were true; but we know, when we will, to utter true things.'

    (ll. 29-35) So said the ready-voiced daughters of great Zeus, and they plucked and gave me a rod,

    a shoot of sturdy laurel, a marvellous thing,
    and breathed into me a divine voice
    to celebrate things that shall be and things there were aforetime;and they bade me sing of the race of the blessed gods that are eternally,

    but ever to sing of themselves both first and last.</font>
Sophia is called the SERPENT and ZOE (Lucifer) is called the BEAST and the female instructing principle. They force the little dumb patriarchal Jehovah to form musical worship teams to WORSHIP SOPHIA AND ZOE. It is not possible to worship God when Sophia-Zoe are bring "menstrual fluid" into the pulpit and among the new Gnostic ALSO into the communion wine. Don't DRINK out of any otter polluted pool.

<font color=blue>Chapter XXX.-Doctrines of the Ophites and Sethians.

1. Others, again, portentously declare that there exists, in the power of Bythus, a certain primary light, blessed, incorruptible, and infinite: this is the Father of all, and is styled the first man.

They also maintain that his Ennoea, going forth from him, produced a son, and that this is the son of man-the second man. Below these, again, is the Holy Spirit, and under this superior spirit the elements were separated from each other, viz., water, darkness, the abyss, chaos, above which they declare the Spirit was borne, calling him the first woman.
  • Afterwards, they maintain, the first man, with his son, delighting over the beauty of the Spirit-that is,
    • of the woman-and shedding light upon her,

      begat by her an incorruptible light, the third male, whom they call Christ,-the son of the first and second man,

      and of the Holy Spirit, the first woman.
2. The father and son thus both had intercourse with the woman (whom they also call the mother of the living) [Eve, ZOE]. When, however, she could not bear nor receive into herself the greatness of the lights,
  • they declare that she was filled to repletion, and became ebullient on the left side;

    and that thus their only son Christ, as belonging to the right side, and ever tending to what was higher,

    was immediately caught up with his mother to form an incorruptible Aeon. This constitutes the true and holy Church, which has become the appellation, the meeting together, and the union of the father of all, of the first man, of the son, of the second man, of Christ their son, and of the woman who has been mentioned.
3. They teach, however, that the power which proceeded from the woman by ebullition, being besprinkled with light, fell downward from the place occupied by its progenitors, yet possessing by its own will that besprinkling of light; and it they call Sinistra, Prunicus, and Sophia, as well as masculo-feminine. </font>
Mr.Sublett,
A short and to the point question. As you seem to consider yourself an intelligent man, does the word loquacious mean anything to you?
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Jimmy Joe
Jimmy Joe

August 28th, 2006, 3:08 am #6

This thread is sick..

We have a christian who comes in late at service to avoid the contemporary songs...sits in the balcony and finds negative reviews of his congregation to spread to the world through his website..

Then we have a christian who stays at home and doesn't attend a congregation but sits on his computer and tells people that those who are attending and worshipping are wrong to sing in the assembly and for having paid preachers...

Though they are both christians in the body of Christ...I ask...Are they qualified to sit in judgement of Otter Creek and Madison...What do you think?

God bless,Peck
Peck,
To answer your question without explicating in a two thousand word post, the simple answer is a resounding NO.
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Another OC Member
Another OC Member

August 28th, 2006, 2:05 pm #7

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>I have just re-visited Otter Creek’s new-formatted website:
Its story: “…while our heritage is in God and His Son, our history is one of a community congregation that welcomes all comers and seeks opportunities to serve and comfort in His name.” [emph. d.c.]

Its mission: “The Otter Creek Church is a Christ-led, Spirit-powered, Grace-motivated family of believers. Our mission is to:
  • reach up through worship and holy living
  • reach in by fostering community and maturity
  • reach out through service, witness and influence
God is changing the world through us as we become Christ’s presence in this place.”

Its faith: “In a religious world where there is so much variety and divergence, it’s important for a community of faith to be open about what they believe. It is in the spirit of that openness that Otter Creek points to the following matters as important & central to its faith. These matters are the core of us, and though our convictions extend beyond what we mention here, these beliefs are what we consider to be necessary for fellowship in Jesus.

“You won’t find anything strange or out of line with the beliefs of most Christians. We provide this statement of faith, not to explain how we are distinct from everybody around us, but to testify that we have a great deal in common with all those who claim Jesus as Lord and who take the Bible seriously.”

Some of the itemized statements no longer consider baptism as a necessary or the ultimate step in the conversion process—or at least … are inconsistent or contradictory. Notice:
  • “Salvation is by God’s grace, through Christ’s cross, and a result of the Spirit’s active work. It is received through faith. It is sealed in confession and baptism. It is demonstrated in a life lived under the lordship of Jesus.
  • “There is one Church. She is the community of people who have trusted in Jesus to make them right with God and to send the Holy Spirit to make them more like God. The church is a “commissioned people,” partnering with God to accomplish His purposes in this world.
  • “God has given His church special ways in which we can draw close to Him personally and enjoy His blessings. These include baptism [sounds like an after-the-fact … in the church], prayer, worship, preaching, the Supper, Bible study, spiritual gifts, fasting, and relationship with each other and Himself.”
Its leaders: The names of 15 elders are listed. The list is a portion of a page with no pictures, no contact information, etc.—in comparison to pages of info on the admin staff and ministers both men and women.

Whereas Tim Woodroof, “functions as our ‘Senior Minister,’ coordinating the ministry team, working directly with the elders, and being a spokesman for the church

Its other activities: In the TGIW (Thank God it’s Wednesday) section, we read:
  • That’s right; Wednesday nights do count at Otter Creek! We’re not saying you have to attend church on Wednesday in order to please God or get your “ticket punched.” What we are saying is during the summer months of June, July and August, a gifted mix of speakers, authors, musicians, and actors will join us on Wednesday evenings @ 7pm to inspire and challenge. You may just find yourself saying, “Thank God it’s Wednesday!
Musicians! “Join us for a wonderful musical experience” with Phil Keaggy in concert—that was on August 23. Some of the other activities scheduled … and the women speakers:
  • JUNE 7 -- Beyond the DaVinci Code: The Real Story of Jesus & Women
    Dr. Amy Jill Levine
  • JUNE 14 -- How the Trinity Keeps the Christian Life on Track
    [Wasn’t the “direct influence” of God’s Spirit upon the Christian or the church taught? Hmmm! dc]
    Dr. Leonard Allen
  • JUNE 28 -- FX! A Family Worship Experience [What “worship” experience?]
  • AUGUST 9 -- Vespers with a message from Kathleen Flood on
    "Why Sabbath?"
Is this the Otter Creek [Community] Church?

Donnie</font>
I'll say the same thing I said over in the Otter Creek thread on the MoreChurches side of things.

Otter Creek is posting the sermons on their website at http://www.ottercreek.org/ministers_sermons.php

The current series is Family Matters and it should explain/confirm/disavow any thinking or presumptions you might have made.

So far the sermons have been:

July 16, 2006 - Family Matters
Who is Otter Creek? / What We Believe document (pdf)

July 23, 2006 - Family Matters
A Theology of Membership

July 30, 2006 - Family Matters
The Purpose of Membership

August 6, 2006 - Family Matters
You and Your Shepherds

August 13, 2006 - Family Matters
What We Believe About Baptism

August 20, 2006 - Family Matters
Worship Anchors and Boundaries

August 27, 2006 - Family Matters
Otter Creek and Your Marriage

If you're not actually going to go to the church, or call one of the ministers or a member to find out more about it, then listen to this series.

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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

August 29th, 2006, 12:01 am #8

Mr.Sublett,
A short and to the point question. As you seem to consider yourself an intelligent man, does the word loquacious mean anything to you?
Mostly what I quoted was not MY WORDS. But, I do tend to try to shame the preachercator and sangacator who do their "clap clap clap e de clapp" 20 times and say "je Zeus" (hail Zeus) for being what Peter called your common adulterers. The one who CORRUPTS the Word is one who MAKES A TRADE or HAWKS HIS WARES from group to group or PEDDLES WORS AT RETAIL. There is NO hope for such people who are ACTING UP in end time prophecy where the speakers, singers and musicians are called by John just your ordinary SORCERS or WITCHES. That is the MARK that the candles HAVE BEEN BLOWN and will never be relit.

There are NO saddles on the school of the Bible and the ONE ANOTHER are commanded to speak "that which is written" or 'scripture' to be a SCHOOL OF THE BILBE and to leave NO ROOM for the SELF-PLEASERS to get your goat and money. These are all called HYPOCRITES whom Jesus defined by quoting prophecy as "speakers, singers and instrument players."

Now, loquacious is the DIRECT COMMAND for the NOT REMOTELY SANGING passages the scam artist use fleece the widows and honest working people. Here is Ephesians 5 in Latin:

Eph 5: [19]WEB loquentes vobismet ipsis in psalmis et hymnis et canticis spiritalibus cantantes et psallentes in cordibus vestris Domino

Loquor is defined for the EKKLESIA or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE: Only perverts ever held WORSHIP SERVICES (hard bondage) and Jesus FIRED THEM

<font color=blue>1. [Sanscr. lap-, to talk, whisper; , to speak, talk, say (in the lang. of common life, in the tone of conversation;

A. To speak, declare, show, indicate or express clearly</font>

Now, we have the METHOD as a direct command and we KNOW that the content for a school of the BIBLE is the BIBLE "as it has been written." Isn't that amazing that one who has fled Babbling Babylon can know that and SHARE it with people: Would piney let a young girl be raped in the middle of the street? Does Piney have the right to speak WHAT Jesus exampled and Paul commanded and the church practiced: No singing as an ACT until about the year 400 TOO LATE, TOO LATE and was added by non-Christian Bishops.

Since Otter is up a creek without a tail studying the Didache, they should understand that NONE of these documents allows any MONEY for vagrant preachers or for second-ask alms.

<font color=blue>Didache CHAPTER 5
5:1 But the path of death is this. First of all, it is evil, and full of cursing; there are found murders, adulteries, lusts, fornication, thefts, idolatries, soothsaying, SORCERERS, robberies, false witnessings, hypocrisies, double-mindedness, CRAFT, pride, malice, self-will, covetousness, filthy talking, jealousy, audacity, pride, arrogance;</FONT>

When speaking the WORD the FACTS which stream out of happy valley is:

<font color=blue>Logik-os, ( [logos] )

A. of or for speaking or speech, merê l. the organs of speech, Plu.Cor.38: logikê, hê, speech, OPPOSITE TO MOUSIKE </font>

SPEAKING in the EKKLESIA is the OPPOSITE of MUSIC.

Speaking to Paul means SPEAKING as in the word SPEAKING

The SINGING and MELODY was in the HEART which is the only place God even LOOKS for our worship. Jesus PURCHASED our right to worship in OUR SPIRIT. Paul said that the Jews now worshipped in THE spirit because OUTSIDE there be DOGS. These were the male prostitutes lurking like wolves seeking someone to devour by singing theirwhining and howling tunes.

Why should someone get so upset because SOMEONE ELSE has to try to rescue his kin?

It is a fact that Isaiah 30 discloses FOR WHOM God prepared HELL: He beats them into it with music. THAT is because you CANNOT perform without falling under the definiton by Jesus of a HYPOCRITE. By pointing to Isaiah and Ezekiel He identified the hypocrites as "speakers, singers and instrument players."
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

August 30th, 2006, 7:21 am #9

I'll say the same thing I said over in the Otter Creek thread on the MoreChurches side of things.

Otter Creek is posting the sermons on their website at http://www.ottercreek.org/ministers_sermons.php

The current series is Family Matters and it should explain/confirm/disavow any thinking or presumptions you might have made.

So far the sermons have been:

July 16, 2006 - Family Matters
Who is Otter Creek? / What We Believe document (pdf)

July 23, 2006 - Family Matters
A Theology of Membership

July 30, 2006 - Family Matters
The Purpose of Membership

August 6, 2006 - Family Matters
You and Your Shepherds

August 13, 2006 - Family Matters
What We Believe About Baptism

August 20, 2006 - Family Matters
Worship Anchors and Boundaries

August 27, 2006 - Family Matters
Otter Creek and Your Marriage

If you're not actually going to go to the church, or call one of the ministers or a member to find out more about it, then listen to this series.
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Hello, Another—

I’m curious as to why the reference to yourself as being “Another OC Member.” Besides whom?

It appears that a church’s website tells much about its teachings and practices. Is Rick Warren’s philosophy studied and taught at OC … his 40-day something, his purpose-driven books or manual, etc.? Is instrumental music a specialty in the assembly? I don’t know; I’m not sure—would you inform us?

What’s going on? The subject “Family Matters” that you mentioned is on the front page:
  • ”We'll be spending a few weeks here at the end of the summer to talk about some "Family Matters"--who we are as a church, what we believe, what it means to be a member, what kind of relationship we hope to have with each other. We've been talking about these ideas with new members, but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ... just so we all know. The sermons are available on the sermon page--if you want to catch up.”
What really caught my attention was this part of the statement, “…but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ...” I’m just wondering what prompted the “but” remark.

Perhaps, you would want to respond to what may be a wrong impression or perception of Otter Creek and its leanings.

Thanks!

Donnie</font>
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Another OC Member
Another OC Member

August 30th, 2006, 1:02 pm #10

I'm "Another OC Member," simply to differentiate between myself and the OC Member in the MoreChurches side of things...

As to your other questions, I respond simply for information.

Is Rick Warren’s philosophy studied and taught at OC … his 40-day something, his purpose-driven books or manual, etc.?

It has not been studied by the church at large, or by a particular class. Individual small groups might have and individual members have.

Is instrumental music a specialty in the assembly?

Not in the Sunday morning assembly. On Sunday nights and Wednesday nights? Yes. This is primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ, not because of some determination of sinfulness within the practice. I would recommend listening to "Worship Anchors and Boundaries" for a much more detailed explanation of the thinking behind this.

What really caught my attention was this part of the statement, “…but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ...” I’m just wondering what prompted the “but” remark.

There is a new/perspective members class called Foundations where much of the material in this current series is covered. The elders thought it would be good for the entire congregation to here where they and the ministers stood on these subjects, so they asked Tim Woodroof to preach a series on these subjects, as you can see from the entire statement:

We've been talking about these ideas with new members, but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ... just so we all know.

Again, I would recommend listening to the sermons, particularly "Who is Otter Creek?" That will give you a clearer idea.

As far as the "wrong idea," rumors and innuendo spread very quickly. Less about actions because those are pretty apparent, but primarily about motivations. I just would rather people really do the full amount of research into somewhere rather than just making assumptions.
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