Manufacturing Taboos

Rocnar
Rocnar

April 18th, 2011, 10:43 pm #21

Sorry, Dave, but you continue to perpetuate the old apples-and-oranges bit. God doesn't address PA systems (and hundreds of other non-spiritual items), so there is no problem in having them; they are, indeed, aids. Their presence does not conflict with New Testament Scripture.

On the other hand, God DOES address worship music. The only kind of music that he mentions is vocal music, which is a cappella singing--singing without the accompaniment of musical instruments. So, it boils down to whether we want to obey New Testament Scripture and sing a cappella; or whether we want to be defiant, ADD to NT Scripture, and bring in the musical instruments, which DO conflict with NT Scripture. Man's tradition is to consider instruments as "aids" that "enhance" and "accompany" our singing, but God mentions nothing about aiding, enhancing, or accompanying our singing. Our simple voices in song are sufficient. What about singing in unison or in 2-, 3-, or 4-part harmony? God just tells us to SING; He specifies nothing about unison or harmony. Therefore, the choice is ours.

The only way we could ever rightfully bring in instruments would be if God in the New Testament had said something generic to the effect of, "Worship Me with music." That would have given us carte blanche to use either vocal music, instrumental music, or combinations of the two.
Dr. Crump, who are you to condemn instruments when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, who are you to deem using instruments as sinful when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, have you ever considered that you are going out on a limb?

Perhaps you should be silent where God has not spoken.

BTW, that advise came from a good COC friend that I RESPECT.
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Rocnar
Rocnar

April 18th, 2011, 10:46 pm #22

Sorry, Dave, but you continue to perpetuate the old apples-and-oranges bit. God doesn't address PA systems (and hundreds of other non-spiritual items), so there is no problem in having them; they are, indeed, aids. Their presence does not conflict with New Testament Scripture.

On the other hand, God DOES address worship music. The only kind of music that he mentions is vocal music, which is a cappella singing--singing without the accompaniment of musical instruments. So, it boils down to whether we want to obey New Testament Scripture and sing a cappella; or whether we want to be defiant, ADD to NT Scripture, and bring in the musical instruments, which DO conflict with NT Scripture. Man's tradition is to consider instruments as "aids" that "enhance" and "accompany" our singing, but God mentions nothing about aiding, enhancing, or accompanying our singing. Our simple voices in song are sufficient. What about singing in unison or in 2-, 3-, or 4-part harmony? God just tells us to SING; He specifies nothing about unison or harmony. Therefore, the choice is ours.

The only way we could ever rightfully bring in instruments would be if God in the New Testament had said something generic to the effect of, "Worship Me with music." That would have given us carte blanche to use either vocal music, instrumental music, or combinations of the two.
Dr. Crump, who are you to condemn instruments when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, who are you to deem using instruments as sinful when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, have you ever considered that you are going out on a limb?

Perhaps you should be silent where God has not spoken.

BTW, that advise came from a good COC friend that I RESPECT.
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Rocnar
Rocnar

April 18th, 2011, 10:47 pm #23

Sorry, Dave, but you continue to perpetuate the old apples-and-oranges bit. God doesn't address PA systems (and hundreds of other non-spiritual items), so there is no problem in having them; they are, indeed, aids. Their presence does not conflict with New Testament Scripture.

On the other hand, God DOES address worship music. The only kind of music that he mentions is vocal music, which is a cappella singing--singing without the accompaniment of musical instruments. So, it boils down to whether we want to obey New Testament Scripture and sing a cappella; or whether we want to be defiant, ADD to NT Scripture, and bring in the musical instruments, which DO conflict with NT Scripture. Man's tradition is to consider instruments as "aids" that "enhance" and "accompany" our singing, but God mentions nothing about aiding, enhancing, or accompanying our singing. Our simple voices in song are sufficient. What about singing in unison or in 2-, 3-, or 4-part harmony? God just tells us to SING; He specifies nothing about unison or harmony. Therefore, the choice is ours.

The only way we could ever rightfully bring in instruments would be if God in the New Testament had said something generic to the effect of, "Worship Me with music." That would have given us carte blanche to use either vocal music, instrumental music, or combinations of the two.
Dr. Crump, who are you to condemn instruments when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, who are you to deem using instruments as sinful when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, have you ever considered that you are going out on a limb?

Perhaps you should be silent where God has not spoken.

BTW, that advise came from a good COC friend that I RESPECT.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 18th, 2011, 11:25 pm #24

Ken,
Why would you ever worship Zeus? I knew that you had a lot of it wrong, but I did think you worshiped the One and Only God. Don't tell me that you've gone off the deep end???
When you tamper with God's Word he sends strong delusions so you believe a lie and are damned. A Disciple has no need to ASSIST God.

2Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty,
......not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
......but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every mans conscience
......in the sight of God.
2Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds
......of them which believe not,
......lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
......who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
?
2Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves,
......but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake.
2Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,
......hath shined in our hearts,
......to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God
......in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels,
......that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Vessels are of clay and not gold: God cannot use your talent.

Opposite. organon, Democr. A. instrument, implement, tool, for making or doing a thing, S.Tr.905, cf. athrobrtos; logkhopoin organa polemika hopla te kai organa Pl.R.374d, cf. Lg. 956a ; o.engine of war,
3. musical instrument, Simon.31, f.l. in A.Fr.57.1 ; ho men di' organn eklei anthrpous, of Marsyas, Pl.Smp.215c ; aneu organn psilois logois ibid., cf. Plt.268b ; o. polukhorda Id.R.399c, al.; met' ds kai tinn organn

sophos , , on,
A. skilled in any handicraft or art, clever, harmatlatas s. Pi.P.5.115, cf. N.7.17; kubernts A.Supp.770; mantis Id.Th.382; oinothetas S.OT484 (lyr.); of a sculptor, E.Fr.372; even of hedgers and ditchers, Margites Fr.2; but in this sense mostly of poets and musicians,

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Rocnar
Rocnar

April 18th, 2011, 11:40 pm #25

Dr. Crump, who are you to condemn instruments when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, who are you to deem using instruments as sinful when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, have you ever considered that you are going out on a limb?

Perhaps you should be silent where God has not spoken.

BTW, that advise came from a good COC friend that I RESPECT.
Go ahead and make you jokes. My PC was not responding to my frantic pounding.
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Da ve
Da ve

April 19th, 2011, 12:47 am #26

According to 1 Cor. 4:6, we are not to go above what is written in Scripture. That is, we are not to add to, take from, or in any way alter God's commands as presented in the New Testament. To do so is sinful. If something about a command does not suit us and we tweak it so that it becomes more palatable to the masses, then that is sinful. Likewise, manufacturing taboos that are not present in the New Testament is also sinful.

For example, if a congregation decides to change its meeting time and someone condemns that change as sinful, that person sins, because the New Testament does not address meeting times. Likewise, condemning a change in the number of hymns sung or the order of worship is sinful, because the New Testament does not address those issues.

Pushing for denominationalism, some members of the Church of Christ claim that it is a sin to condemn anything that God does not explicitly forbid by name, despite the fact that God may have already addressed the issue.

For example, the New Testament specifies bread and fruit of the vine as the emblems for the Lord's Supper, yet some people advocate alternatives like pizza and soft drinks, because the New Testament does not forbid those items by name. The argument is that if God had wanted ONLY bread and fruit of the vine, He would have said not to use any other emblems. It's the old bit of "God didn't say not to." Because those people claim that condemning pizza and soft drinks is sinful, they manufacture a taboo that is not present in the New Testament. Hence, they sin.

A similar example involves instrumental music. Although Christ through Paul tells us to sing and make melody in our hearts (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16), advocates of instruments claim that condemning instruments is sinful, because the New Testament does not explicitly condemn them by name. The argument is that if God had wanted ONLY vocal music, He would have said not to use any other forms of music. Again, it's the old bit of "God didn't say not to." Because those people claim that condemning instrumental music is sinful, they manufacture a taboo that is not present in the New Testament. Hence, they sin.

People who manufacture taboos to please themselves in worship are not willing to take Gods explicit commands in the New Testament and abide by them. They would have God make an extensive, exhaustive list of every conceivable item in the universe that is forbidden; without such a list, they do as they please. That, of course, is utterly ridiculous.
Ken,
When you say...."When you tamper with God's Word he sends strong delusions so you believe a lie and are damned."

Would you call that your self-fulfilling prophecy? Aren't you the one who says to speak that which is written, but then tries his best to infuse Greek mythology and believe that the Word isn't complete and strong enough, so you believe that you need to add the book of Enoch?
You are in good company here at concernedmembers for sure. They accuse someone of what they are actually doing themselves. Ken, you should have been around when they translated the KJV. You were born too late. You would told them how to do it right, ya think?
Why do you think that you got banned at Faithsite? Why do you believe you continue to get banned at the Grace Forum? Because you believe that you are THE present day vicar of God!! Pope Ken? No, you need your own title for you don't like the Catholics either. You don't like the church of Christ....it just isn't good enough for you anymore either. You pretty much don't like any church, do you? Are you your own cornerstone? You certainly can't lay a claim to the one that Jesus died for. You are an entity unto thyself. To him who has an ear, listen to what the Lord has to say through the apostle Peter.
1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

Ken, you don't even LIKE people. How could you when you believe that you're the lone bastion and pillar of the Christian faith? No one is faithful enough for you.
You have failed miserably, for you can't even read the above passage without feeling deep remorse. Without love Ken, you are nothing!
Check out 1 Corinthians 13 if you don't want to take my word for it.
That is why you and this site has failed altogether. You and this site shows no love for the brothers that they disagree with. You gents are always ready to condemn, but never build up.

Donnie, keep waiting for your apology from Madison too. I am sure that it should be coming any day now. Don't you dare fret it.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 19th, 2011, 1:31 am #27

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What part of that do you not understand?
If the message from God is to "Teach that which has been taught" and if you want to sing "use one mind and one mouth speaking that which is written for our learning."

Anyone who can say that that is not binding on them simply is not yet a disciple.
Christ repudiated all of the sacrificial system in the prophets specificially using musical instruments as the MARK of those who do not intend to obey His commands.

If Jesus Christ in person did not command you to sing and make melody WITH a harp then based on the understanding of all pagan religious music and musicians the performers (hypocrites says Jesus) "set their lies to melodies to deceive the simple." You will find no recorded history which does not see religious musicians as vile and gender-bent. That is what observers see when the singy-clappy boys begin to perform: that's why up to 1/2 of the owners cast themselves out of their own synagogue.

It would help if you didn't try to interpret me.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

April 19th, 2011, 1:38 am #28

According to 1 Cor. 4:6, we are not to go above what is written in Scripture. That is, we are not to add to, take from, or in any way alter God's commands as presented in the New Testament. To do so is sinful. If something about a command does not suit us and we tweak it so that it becomes more palatable to the masses, then that is sinful. Likewise, manufacturing taboos that are not present in the New Testament is also sinful.

For example, if a congregation decides to change its meeting time and someone condemns that change as sinful, that person sins, because the New Testament does not address meeting times. Likewise, condemning a change in the number of hymns sung or the order of worship is sinful, because the New Testament does not address those issues.

Pushing for denominationalism, some members of the Church of Christ claim that it is a sin to condemn anything that God does not explicitly forbid by name, despite the fact that God may have already addressed the issue.

For example, the New Testament specifies bread and fruit of the vine as the emblems for the Lord's Supper, yet some people advocate alternatives like pizza and soft drinks, because the New Testament does not forbid those items by name. The argument is that if God had wanted ONLY bread and fruit of the vine, He would have said not to use any other emblems. It's the old bit of "God didn't say not to." Because those people claim that condemning pizza and soft drinks is sinful, they manufacture a taboo that is not present in the New Testament. Hence, they sin.

A similar example involves instrumental music. Although Christ through Paul tells us to sing and make melody in our hearts (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16), advocates of instruments claim that condemning instruments is sinful, because the New Testament does not explicitly condemn them by name. The argument is that if God had wanted ONLY vocal music, He would have said not to use any other forms of music. Again, it's the old bit of "God didn't say not to." Because those people claim that condemning instrumental music is sinful, they manufacture a taboo that is not present in the New Testament. Hence, they sin.

People who manufacture taboos to please themselves in worship are not willing to take Gods explicit commands in the New Testament and abide by them. They would have God make an extensive, exhaustive list of every conceivable item in the universe that is forbidden; without such a list, they do as they please. That, of course, is utterly ridiculous.
Who are you to assume that instruments are acceptable in Christian worship, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to ADD instruments when God explicitly tells us to SING and make melody in our hearts?

Who are you to assume that, if we want something MORE in a command from God, yet He is silent about it, then His silence is permissive?

Who are you to assume that, because God explictly tells us to SING and make melody in our hearts but but stops there, then He grants "silent" permission to make melody on instruments as well?

Who are you to change any one of God's commands from what He explicitly states therein?

Who are you to go above and beyond the boundaries of any one of God's commands?

Who are you to assume that using instruments in Christian worship pleases God, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to assume that instruments are necessary to "aid," "enhance," and "accompany" the human voice to make it more effective in praising God, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to use "God didn't say not to" to justify instruments, when that philosophy is not found anywhere in the New Testament?

Who are you to manufacture a taboo that says condemning instruments is a sin, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to assume that whatever man thinks is "right" in worship, then God agrees?

Who are you to assume ANYTHING about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Gospel, worship, and salvation that is not written in the New Testament?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 19th, 2011, 2:30 am #29

Make DISCIPLES and teach them what I COMMANDED TO BE TAUGHT.
This as the SOLE RESOURCE is stated over and over and over.
Those tiltable toward instruments stand up before all of the "scholars" and say he NEVER commanded what was to be taught: never.

Now, I believe that when Jesus said that "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge" and Paul said God left the Word in clay vessels meaning those of low standing and apt to be despised and rejected by men.

And the manufacturing plant of preachers with no role and no dole unless they teach that which has been taught.

I think you can assume that Satan is pretty slick, turns his ministers into angels (evangelists) of light, and the massed multitudes (beasts) follow them like Mary's little lambs, that we are watching something of enhanced Biblical Proportions and--if possible--will lead astray the very elect (church members).

That's why--as Jesus warned in John 17--when you speak or post the Words of Christ in context, they will ban you and would hurt you really bad if they could get their hands on you.

Their agents do the dirty work and those speaking on their own (sons of the Devil) have agreed not to respond.

Revelation 17-18 defines it all in great detail: they are sorcerers or witches all of whom used musical instruments to fool the fools that the gods spoke through the instrument.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 19th, 2011, 2:30 am #30

Who are you to assume that instruments are acceptable in Christian worship, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to ADD instruments when God explicitly tells us to SING and make melody in our hearts?

Who are you to assume that, if we want something MORE in a command from God, yet He is silent about it, then His silence is permissive?

Who are you to assume that, because God explictly tells us to SING and make melody in our hearts but but stops there, then He grants "silent" permission to make melody on instruments as well?

Who are you to change any one of God's commands from what He explicitly states therein?

Who are you to go above and beyond the boundaries of any one of God's commands?

Who are you to assume that using instruments in Christian worship pleases God, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to assume that instruments are necessary to "aid," "enhance," and "accompany" the human voice to make it more effective in praising God, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to use "God didn't say not to" to justify instruments, when that philosophy is not found anywhere in the New Testament?

Who are you to manufacture a taboo that says condemning instruments is a sin, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to assume that whatever man thinks is "right" in worship, then God agrees?

Who are you to assume ANYTHING about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Gospel, worship, and salvation that is not written in the New Testament?
Make DISCIPLES and teach them what I COMMANDED TO BE TAUGHT.
This as the SOLE RESOURCE is stated over and over and over.
Those tiltable toward instruments stand up before all of the "scholars" and say he NEVER commanded what was to be taught: never.

Now, I believe that when Jesus said that "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge" and Paul said God left the Word in clay vessels meaning those of low standing and apt to be despised and rejected by men, He warned the discerning NEVER to follow or believe or enable a skilled rhetorician who is hired because of his pleasing style of poetic rhetoric which is one of the marks of the effeminate.

And the manufacturing plant of preachers with no role and no dole unless they teach that which has been taught.

I think you can assume that Satan is pretty slick, turns his ministers into angels (evangelists) of light, and the massed multitudes (beasts) follow them like Mary's little lambs, that we are watching something of enhanced Biblical Proportions and--if possible--will lead astray the very elect (church members).

That's why--as Jesus warned in John 17--when you speak or post the Words of Christ in context, they will ban you and would hurt you really bad if they could get their hands on you.

Their agents do the dirty work and those speaking on their own (sons of the Devil) have agreed not to respond.

Revelation 17-18 defines it all in great detail: they are sorcerers or witches all of whom used musical instruments to fool the fools that the gods spoke through the instrument.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on April 19th, 2011, 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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