Madison's New (Instrumental) 'Vision'

Madison's New (Instrumental) 'Vision'

MCC-Torn
MCC-Torn

June 11th, 2012, 7:32 am #1

Original Message <font face="times" size="3">(June 11 2012 at 3:32 AM):</font>

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[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Last month the elders announced Madison's new "vision" that approves the use of instrumental music. If someone wrote about this I didn't see it.

They said that using instruments is not a "salvation issue". Both services will use acappella music for now, but the first service will now get a praise team like the second service. And the second service will have more creative worship.

But the youth group gets to start using instrumental music. They said light acoustical instruments.

This seems like a huge change so I was surprised not to see it here yet.


[/color]</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></td></tr></table>

_________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]NOTE:The information above has been submitted anonymously. Meanwhile, we have opted to substitute "Concerned" for "Anonymous" as the name. The message remains unedited.
-----------------------[/color]
[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]We've heard from the author who is a long-time member of Madison and would like to be identified as "MCC-Torn" [... and appropriately so].[/color]
=================================================



=================================================
[color=#0000FF" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps ANATHEMA
By Ken Sublett[/color]



Heritage Church of Christ following the ACU pattern has imposed what he calls instrumental music.

http://www.piney.com/Heritage.Church.of ... Music.html

Jim Hackney led by the NACC at ACU gives his "proof texts" all of which are lies because he does not know the context.

http://www.piney.com/Jim.Hackney.Instru ... rship.html

The expression "having cymbals and psalteries and harps" is not a pattern for Christian worship: it is defined as the worship of Apollo (abaddon, Apollyon) and Dionysus first outed at Mount Sinai. If God turned them over to worship the starry host, and scholars agree that the Jews worshipped the starry host on their way back to Babylon, why do you suppose that latter day elders fulfil the warning of Paul against wolves and violently impose the same patternism: Who knows? both the Shadow and any Bible student knows.

http://www.piney.com/Having.Cymbals.and ... s.and.html
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on November 15th, 2015, 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 13th, 2012, 5:43 pm #2

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]It has been quite a history of significant changes at the Madison congregation in the last couple of decades, changes prompted by sorts of religious movements -- Charismatic, Contemporary Christian Music, Community Church, Unity in Diversity, and other Change Movements. These changes have affected not only Protestant religious groups but also a number of "mega" churches of Christ including Oak Hills, Richland Hills, Woodland Hills [and other "Hills"] and Madison.

The word for it all is "INFILTRATION" and subsequently "ACQUISITION," like it or not. While some of the "transformed" congregations would still cling to being part of "the churches of Christ [that] salute you" (Romans 16:16), there's no reason for them to do so. The Oak Hills Church (formerly "of Christ") dropped His name. Its "shepherds" headed by its "Reverend Pastor" Max Lucado [just loving the title when addressed by in denominational assemblies and conventions], because of cultural and social stigma, made an "executive" decision to remove its affiliation publicly with anything that is "church of Christ." Well, the reality is that the Oak Hills Church is a Community Church -- which may still have certain attributes that are unique to the New Testament church. Fact is: When a "Baptist" or "Methodist" or "Presbyterian" Church drops that specific identity to become a one-size-fits-all "Community Church," such an identity vanisheth away.

The Community Church Movement is not unique to churches of Christ. In fact, it has grown out of a denominational background. The chief models are the Willow Creek Association of Churches and the Willow Creek Community Church and the Saddleback Community Church. There are "Church of Christ" members of the WCA. Surprised?

What is the Oak Hills Church to anyone who is not aware of its history? What is the "Family of God Church" [formerly Woodland Hills Church of Christ] to anyone who is not aware of its history?

Is the Madison congregation that far behind?

Here are threads that detail the experiences that Madison has gone through during its "transformation":[/color]
Archives 1
http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumar ... 21126.html (currently not accessible)

Archives 2
http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumar ... 21024g.txt (currently not accessible)

Archives 3
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1027181246

Archives 4
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1041888038

Archives 5
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1049383651

Archives 6
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1062020979

Archives 7
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1074269951

Archives 8
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1100171098

Archives 9
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1110968133

Archives 10
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1115534555

Archives 11
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1151042140

Current: 11
WHAT HAPPENED AT MADISON THIS WEEK--The Timeline (Part XII)
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]See what the following articles have to say about the Madison church's experience outside of ConcernedMembers. While there are differences between CM's historical perspectives and those of the articles, the truth remains that the "changes" were not acceptable overall, and the congregation was divided. The "Praise Team" [a.k.a. "Church of Christ CHOIR"] was the last straw.

As if that [first] division primarily due to the departure from congregational singing were not enough or a "lesson learned," does the congregation's leadership really need to experience and take another risk?[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 13th, 2012, 5:46 pm #3

[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]Source: The Christian Chronicle (/Articles)[/color]
From the January 2002 Archives.
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[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Madison's Conflict Reflects Broader Issues[/color]

[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]LINDY ADAMS[/color]

[color=#000000" size="3.5" face="times]Its name is legendary and brings to mind legendary people and associations. It was our first multi-faceted, multi-programmed mega-church.

It's the church led by Jim Mankin, Jimmy Sites, Steve Flatt and, of course, the inimitable Ira North. It's Amazing Grace Bible Class, Happy Hills Boys Ranch, song leader Nick Boone -- yes, Pat's brother.

It's Madison.

It's the church on Gallatin Road in suburban Nashville, Tenn., which under the leadership of bigger-than-life Ira North, went from being a typical congregation to being what some considered our flagship. In its heyday it was the largest congregation in churches of Christ.

But in recent years Madison has fallen on hard times.

North succumbed to cancer in the 1984 and in the years since the congregation has gone from a well-oiled machine to one in need of overhaul.

However, recent attempts at an overhaul put those committed to the old ways and those seeking the new at terrible odds.

Tensions rose. Tempers flared. Members were set against members. Some left.

At the end of 1998, Madison's Sunday morning attendance was 3,240. Today it is 2,433, a loss of about 800 members, according to Jerry Sherrill, Madison's business administrator.

So traumatic, so heart-breaking, so disconcerting.

But too typical.

Across the nation religious groups from Baha'i to Baptist are embroiled in similar conflict, reports Faith Communities Today, a research project of the Lilly Endowment which released its findings on 42 U.S. religious bodies last March. Frequently the conflict centers on worship issues.

The FACT study -- which included data from congregations among churches of Christ -- found that 59 percent of all religious bodies nationwide changed worship practices a "great deal" in the last five years and that such change brought conflict.

As any attentive observer knows, our fellowship is no exception. Since mid-August, word of conflict in 11 congregations has been reported to the Chronicle. The discord is of several sorts, but often regards worship.

But what happened at Madison?

Some parts of the story are disputed. While Madison's elders declined to discuss the details of the conflict, some members and leaders shared their insights.

The church's troubles began in earnest in early 2001, members say. A contemporary Sunday morning service in the church's basement fellowship hall was added to two existing traditional services. The new gathering quickly outgrew its quarters.

In February, elder Buck Dozier read an elders' statement saying the contemporary service would replace the second traditional Sunday morning service in the main auditorium. The next Sunday some members walked out of the contemporary worship, according to deacon David Hardin.

From that Sunday, the conflict escalated. Madison's prominence drew coverage in local media -- including television reports and two articles in The Tennessean.

A few traditional members, calling themselves "Concerned Members," began a web site with complaints and reports and mailed 2,500 questionnaires to members polling them about issues.

A member from the traditional worship service called publicly for the elders' resignation.

Meanwhile, participants in the contemporary worship chafed under decisions by the elders requiring a mixture of traditional and contemporary songs and regulating the length of the sermon.

Practices including use of a praise team on Sunday morning and singing during communion have been prohibited, according to member David Hardin.

However, other Madison sources say such issues are under study.

In September the elders called for help. Larry Sullivan of the Straus Institute for Dispute Resolution, Pepperdine University, made the first of several visits to Madison to help resolve the difficulties.

Sullivan instructed the congregation in dispute resolution skills, conducted interviews with members from various factions and assembled teams to discuss differences. He said Madison, like many churches, is struggling with addressing contemporary culture without abandoning the truths of Christ's message.

Madison members are frustrated, he said. "They want to reach out and be pertinent to our culture today, yet not lose the underpinnings of the Gospel. I think everybody sees the dilemma and is trying to address it in certain ways."

As Madison seeks resolution to its ills, what in its experience can offer insight to other churches? Certainly that no church, regardless of prominence, age, history or leadership is immune.

Fifteen years ago few members could have imagined the fracturing that has occurred at Madison, according to sources at the congregation.

As the Madison elders said in their February statement, "... we believe that these times challenge us to humbly re-look at what we think and believe. ... We have sought the perfect church in the New Testament, but found them struggling also. We pursued infallible practice and spotless leadership in the Restoration Movement. We found greatness and inspiration, but no perfection. Regardless of our age or position, we all must admit our humanity, and humble ourselves before God."

COMING IN OUR SERIES ON CONFLICT: the Chronicle will examine additional sources of conflict, how to address them and lessons to be learned from congregations who have lived through strife and endured.
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Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on November 19th, 2014, 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 13th, 2012, 5:48 pm #4

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]It has been quite a history of significant changes at the Madison congregation in the last couple of decades, changes prompted by sorts of religious movements -- Charismatic, Contemporary Christian Music, Community Church, Unity in Diversity, and other Change Movements. These changes have affected not only Protestant religious groups but also a number of "mega" churches of Christ including Oak Hills, Richland Hills, Woodland Hills [and other "Hills"] and Madison.

The word for it all is "INFILTRATION" and subsequently "ACQUISITION," like it or not. While some of the "transformed" congregations would still cling to being part of "the churches of Christ [that] salute you" (Romans 16:16), there's no reason for them to do so. The Oak Hills Church (formerly "of Christ") dropped His name. Its "shepherds" headed by its "Reverend Pastor" Max Lucado [just loving the title when addressed by in denominational assemblies and conventions], because of cultural and social stigma, made an "executive" decision to remove its affiliation publicly with anything that is "church of Christ." Well, the reality is that the Oak Hills Church is a Community Church -- which may still have certain attributes that are unique to the New Testament church. Fact is: When a "Baptist" or "Methodist" or "Presbyterian" Church drops that specific identity to become a one-size-fits-all "Community Church," such an identity vanisheth away.

The Community Church Movement is not unique to churches of Christ. In fact, it has grown out of a denominational background. The chief models are the Willow Creek Association of Churches and the Willow Creek Community Church and the Saddleback Community Church. There are "Church of Christ" members of the WCA. Surprised?

What is the Oak Hills Church to anyone who is not aware of its history? What is the "Family of God Church" [formerly Woodland Hills Church of Christ] to anyone who is not aware of its history?

Is the Madison congregation that far behind?

Here are threads that detail the experiences that Madison has gone through during its "transformation":[/color]
Archives 1
http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumar ... 21126.html (currently not accessible)

Archives 2
http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumar ... 21024g.txt (currently not accessible)

Archives 3
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1027181246

Archives 4
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1041888038

Archives 5
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1049383651

Archives 6
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1062020979

Archives 7
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1074269951

Archives 8
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1100171098

Archives 9
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1110968133

Archives 10
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1115534555

Archives 11
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1151042140

Current: 11
WHAT HAPPENED AT MADISON THIS WEEK--The Timeline (Part XII)
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]See what the following articles have to say about the Madison church's experience outside of ConcernedMembers. While there are differences between CM's historical perspectives and those of the articles, the truth remains that the "changes" were not acceptable overall, and the congregation was divided. The "Praise Team" [a.k.a. "Church of Christ CHOIR"] was the last straw.

As if that [first] division primarily due to the departure from congregational singing were not enough or a "lesson learned," does the congregation's leadership really need to experience and take another risk?[/color]
[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]Source: The Christian Chronicle (/Articles)[/color]
From the January 2003 Archives.
_________________________________

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[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Life Looking Up at Madison, Minister Says[/color]

[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]LINDY ADAMS[/color]

[color=#000000" size="3.5" face="times]Life is looking up at the Madison church, Madison, Tenn., says Pulpit Minister Bruce White.

In December 2001 to begin a series on church coflict, the Chronicle chose to highlight the situation at Madison. Madison was once our largest congregation with attendance as high as 4,000 and was considered by some our fellowship's flagship.

At the time of our article, Madison's attendance had dropped dramatically and unrest over worship and other issues was prevalent. Some wondered if the congregation would stay intact.

White reports that today, about 14 months later, attendance has stabilized and started upward and other signs showed renewed confidence within the congregation.

After a low in attendance of 1,500 in December 2001, December 2002 attendance figures ran 1,800 White said. He points to encouraging signs such as 100 baptisms in 2002, 60 families placing membership and the addition of three elders and 20 deacons.

But the most positive sign, Madison leaders say, is a special Thanksgiving 2002 donation of $480,000 to retire a portion of the debt on a $7.5 million remodeling of Madison's physical plant completed in recent years.

The donation followed a stewardship study with Kregg Hood on "Take God at His Word." By comparison, the contribution in 2001 was $50,000, White said.

As for the future, Madison plans to turn from looking inward to outward, White said. In the spring the congregation will host an evangelism workshop with Jeff Walling and others to encourage community outreach.
[/color]</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></td></tr></table>
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on November 19th, 2014, 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 13th, 2012, 7:27 pm #5

Original Message <font face="times" size="3">(June 11 2012 at 3:32 AM):</font>

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[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Last month the elders announced Madison's new "vision" that approves the use of instrumental music. If someone wrote about this I didn't see it.

They said that using instruments is not a "salvation issue". Both services will use acappella music for now, but the first service will now get a praise team like the second service. And the second service will have more creative worship.

But the youth group gets to start using instrumental music. They said light acoustical instruments.

This seems like a huge change so I was surprised not to see it here yet.


[/color]</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></td></tr></table>

_________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]NOTE:The information above has been submitted anonymously. Meanwhile, we have opted to substitute "Concerned" for "Anonymous" as the name. The message remains unedited.
-----------------------[/color]
[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]We've heard from the author who is a long-time member of Madison and would like to be identified as "MCC-Torn" [... and appropriately so].[/color]
=================================================



=================================================
[color=#0000FF" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps ANATHEMA
By Ken Sublett[/color]



Heritage Church of Christ following the ACU pattern has imposed what he calls instrumental music.

http://www.piney.com/Heritage.Church.of ... Music.html

Jim Hackney led by the NACC at ACU gives his "proof texts" all of which are lies because he does not know the context.

http://www.piney.com/Jim.Hackney.Instru ... rship.html

The expression "having cymbals and psalteries and harps" is not a pattern for Christian worship: it is defined as the worship of Apollo (abaddon, Apollyon) and Dionysus first outed at Mount Sinai. If God turned them over to worship the starry host, and scholars agree that the Jews worshipped the starry host on their way back to Babylon, why do you suppose that latter day elders fulfil the warning of Paul against wolves and violently impose the same patternism: Who knows? both the Shadow and any Bible student knows.

http://www.piney.com/Having.Cymbals.and ... s.and.html
[color=#0000FF" size="3.5" face="times]Thanks from ConcernedMembers for the information. (Due to circumstances, I'd been away from the Madison assemblies for most of the time in the last several months. But I was there on 6/10/12, this past Sunday. You submitted your information on 6/11/12 Monday following. Then, I realized that "creative worship" has just begun in the contemporary period. How so? Well, here's the "gradualism" factor at work when a major change is being implemented. There was a contemporary-charismatic "Christian" music piece titled "So Excited" that was performed on stage by a finger-snapping, microphone-holding female lead singer and the boys. Oh, yeah, the last song in the "worship" guide, perhaps considered as outside or after the "worship services.").

Well, "So Excited" as performed was "creative worship," alright!!! I did not expect that at all. But that wasn't the first time performances on stage of that nature were that well-executed. In fact, during Madison's "Easter Sunday Worship Services," there were quite a few of these exciting activities performed on stage.

Then and now!!! Then, there was the implementation of the "Praise Team" strategy in 2001 -- one primary reason that the congregation divided, and hundreds of members left. Assembly became divided between "traditional" (first) and "contemporary" (second). The "Praise Team" became a permanent feature, of course, with the contemporary division. The "traditional" group has been Praise Team-free -- perhaps by design until senior saints have died off. Now, a decade later, the Praise Team-free environment is no more. (CAUTION: the Praise Team system is not the only issue.)

Let's not forget the division in the eldership alone at the time. Several of them left their home congregation or resigned. There have been elders from those that remained who are no longer elders now. Elders select additional elders. (Perhaps, many members have lost track of all current "shepherds." We don't hear of "deacons" anymore. The church's website seems to be "under construction" constantly [maybe not], and no information about the "office of an elder" can be found. Or, do I simply not know where to find the list of the office holders?)

Now, the implementation of instrumental music is about to happen.

No doubt that the survey or solicitation of suggestions and "ideas" was geared towards this pre-determined goal -- implementation of the instrumental music system in "worship." It is characteristic of surverys such as this one that with Only one member suggesting IM, that should be enough support or proof to incorporate musical idolatry in the assembly.

The famed Keith Lancaster (from Acappella.org) as "Worship Leader" to replace Nick Boone was fired. Brent Whitworth (cf. thread: "Brent Whitworth, Where Are You Now?") replaced Keith. Then, George Pendergrass (from Acappella.org) was employed as "Worship Leader" early this year, replacing Brent. But I wonder where George has been in the last few weeks?

Once, the brotherhood knows about what Madison is doing to achieve its goal of increased membership by whatever means, I wonder if certain churches or elders of other congregations will be inquiring or writing to Madison's leaders about this "endeavor." I know, I know about congregational autonomy. But this is not an "autonomy" issue. This is a New Testament church issue!!![/color]
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June 13th, 2012, 8:25 pm #6

Once church of Christ congregations get hooked into having praise teams that simulate denominational choirs, it's only a matter of time before they switch partly or completely from a cappella to instrumental music. And if they make this kind of doctrinal change, they'll be likely to make others in due course. For example, it wouldn't surprise me to see some church of Christ congregations adopting the Baptist doctrine that baptism is not essential for salvation, or the Catholic doctrine of infant baptism, and so forth. Such church of Christ congregations are willing to compromise their spiritual values to "appear like everybody else" and be "accepted" among the spiritually incompetent masses.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 13th, 2012, 9:37 pm #7

Looks like their web page has gone silent about worship. However, I believe this will happen because it is predestinated marked first by the "worship team" which is a heresy and denying the very meaning of worship. If you "give attendance" to the virtual sexual performance rather than reading and teaching the Word of Christ this is a MARK of strong delusions so that you believe your own lie.

I am still shocked that only a handful of those INTENTIONALLY PURPOSIING to drive their church have had such little luck. I would say that with Madison if you believe the Enoch, Jude, Mount Sinai pattern, when you have fallen you will never get back up. The Devil will keep you dancing on a string and you cannot stop. I hope this is a run-up to galaxy polar shift in December.

http://www.piney.com/WinTertDeSpec.html

But Venus (Zoe,Lucifer) and Bacchus [Dionysus: Wineskin God] are close allies. These two evil spirits are in sworn confederacy with each other, as the patrons of drunkenness and lust. So the theatre of Venus is as well the house of Bacchus: for they properly gave the name of Liberalia also to other theatrical amusements-which besides being consecrated to Bacchus (as were the Dionysia of the Greeks), were instituted by him; and, without doubt, the performances of the theatre have the common patronage of these two deities.
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
That immodesty of gesture and attire
.....which so specially and
.....peculiarly characterizes the stage
.....are consecrated to them-the one deity wanton by her sex, the other by his drapery;
.....while its services of voice, and song, and lute, and pipe,
.....belong to Apollos, and Muses, and Minervas, and Mercuries.


It has long been out of their control: Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon is devoted to SUN WORSHIP and perverted music. He is the "having fallen star" who unleashed the locusts (muses) from the PIT to which their spirits were consigned until the end time. They are so frenzed because they know their time is short.

I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the Lord; and I will heal him. Isaiah 57:19

But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. Isaiah 57:20

There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked. Isaiah 57:21




</font>
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on June 13th, 2012, 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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June 13th, 2012, 10:01 pm #8

Original Message <font face="times" size="3">(June 11 2012 at 3:32 AM):</font>

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[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Last month the elders announced Madison's new "vision" that approves the use of instrumental music. If someone wrote about this I didn't see it.

They said that using instruments is not a "salvation issue". Both services will use acappella music for now, but the first service will now get a praise team like the second service. And the second service will have more creative worship.

But the youth group gets to start using instrumental music. They said light acoustical instruments.

This seems like a huge change so I was surprised not to see it here yet.


[/color]</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></td></tr></table>

_________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]NOTE:The information above has been submitted anonymously. Meanwhile, we have opted to substitute "Concerned" for "Anonymous" as the name. The message remains unedited.
-----------------------[/color]
[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]We've heard from the author who is a long-time member of Madison and would like to be identified as "MCC-Torn" [... and appropriately so].[/color]
=================================================



=================================================
[color=#0000FF" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps ANATHEMA
By Ken Sublett[/color]



Heritage Church of Christ following the ACU pattern has imposed what he calls instrumental music.

http://www.piney.com/Heritage.Church.of ... Music.html

Jim Hackney led by the NACC at ACU gives his "proof texts" all of which are lies because he does not know the context.

http://www.piney.com/Jim.Hackney.Instru ... rship.html

The expression "having cymbals and psalteries and harps" is not a pattern for Christian worship: it is defined as the worship of Apollo (abaddon, Apollyon) and Dionysus first outed at Mount Sinai. If God turned them over to worship the starry host, and scholars agree that the Jews worshipped the starry host on their way back to Babylon, why do you suppose that latter day elders fulfil the warning of Paul against wolves and violently impose the same patternism: Who knows? both the Shadow and any Bible student knows.

http://www.piney.com/Having.Cymbals.and ... s.and.html
It's one thing when a congregation realizes it has followed a doctrine that is not true to the New Testament and takes corrective action. Today, however, when a congregation changes its position about a doctrinal matter and announces that the change is not a "savation issue," it usually means that congregation is about to deviate significantly from what is written in the New Testament. That congregation "justifies" its actions by assuming that as long as the majority agrees the change will not impact salvation, then it must be right and God will accept it.

I don't recall Jesus ever saying anything like, "If ye love me, keep only those commandments that the majority of the congregation agree to follow and add whatever ye like to them if anything seems 'missing' from them."

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 13th, 2012, 11:52 pm #9

Original Message <font face="times" size="3">(June 11 2012 at 3:32 AM):</font>

<table width="725" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" width="98%">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tr><td width="98%" bgcolor="#ffffff">

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[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Last month the elders announced Madison's new "vision" that approves the use of instrumental music. If someone wrote about this I didn't see it.

They said that using instruments is not a "salvation issue". Both services will use acappella music for now, but the first service will now get a praise team like the second service. And the second service will have more creative worship.

But the youth group gets to start using instrumental music. They said light acoustical instruments.

This seems like a huge change so I was surprised not to see it here yet.


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[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]NOTE:The information above has been submitted anonymously. Meanwhile, we have opted to substitute "Concerned" for "Anonymous" as the name. The message remains unedited.
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[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]We've heard from the author who is a long-time member of Madison and would like to be identified as "MCC-Torn" [... and appropriately so].[/color]
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[color=#0000FF" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps ANATHEMA
By Ken Sublett[/color]



Heritage Church of Christ following the ACU pattern has imposed what he calls instrumental music.

http://www.piney.com/Heritage.Church.of ... Music.html

Jim Hackney led by the NACC at ACU gives his "proof texts" all of which are lies because he does not know the context.

http://www.piney.com/Jim.Hackney.Instru ... rship.html

The expression "having cymbals and psalteries and harps" is not a pattern for Christian worship: it is defined as the worship of Apollo (abaddon, Apollyon) and Dionysus first outed at Mount Sinai. If God turned them over to worship the starry host, and scholars agree that the Jews worshipped the starry host on their way back to Babylon, why do you suppose that latter day elders fulfil the warning of Paul against wolves and violently impose the same patternism: Who knows? both the Shadow and any Bible student knows.

http://www.piney.com/Having.Cymbals.and ... s.and.html
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

MHC: 15:5-8 In the judgments God executes upon antichrist and his followers, he fulfils the prophecies and promises of his word. These angels are prepared for their work, clothed with pure and white linen, their breasts girded with golden girdles, representing the holiness, and righteousness, and excellence of these dealings with men. They are ministers of Divine justice, and do every thing in a pure and holy manner. They were armed with the wrath of God against his enemies. Even the meanest creature, when armed with the anger of God, will be too hard for any man in the world. The angels received the vials from one of the four living creatures, one of the ministers of the true church, as in answer to the prayers of the ministers and people of God. Antichrist could not be destroyed without a great shock to all the world, and even the people of God would be in trouble and confusion while the great work was doing. The greatest deliverances of the church are brought about by awful and astonishing steps of Providence; and the happy state of the true church will not begin till obstinate enemies shall be destroyed, and lukewarm or formal Christians are purified. Then, whatever is against Scripture being purged away, the whole church shall be spiritual, and the whole being brought to purity, unity, and spirituality, shall be firmly established.

Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple,
.....having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen,
.....and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

WES: 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple - As having received their instructions from the oracle of God himself. St. John saw them in heaven, verse 1, Rev 15:1 before they went into the temple. They appeared in habits like those the high priest wore when he went into the most holy place to consult the oracle. In this was the visible testimony of God's presence. Clothed in pure white linen - Linen is the habit of service and attendance. Pure - unspotted, unsullied. White - Or bright and shining, which implies much more than bare innocence. And having their breasts girt with golden girdles - In token of their high dignity and glorious rest.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels
.....seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever

Rev. 15:8 And the temple was filled with
.....smoke from the glory of God, and from his power;

God SENDS the Wine to the Wineskinners and POURS IT OUT.:

kapnos metaph., Porph.Abst.1.47): prov., kapnou skia, [The Law] of things worth nothing, grammatn kapnoi learned trifles, E.Hipp.954

Kapn-eios (sc. ampelos), hê, vine. A. with smokecoloured grapes.

2586. kapnos, kap-nos´; of uncertain affinity; smoke: -- smoke.
2585. kapeleuo, kap-ale-yoo´-o; from kapelos (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by implication) to adulterate (figuratively): corrupt.
kapno-mantis , eôs, ho, smoke-diviner,
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June 14th, 2012, 4:10 am #10

Original Message <font face="times" size="3">(June 11 2012 at 3:32 AM):</font>

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[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Last month the elders announced Madison's new "vision" that approves the use of instrumental music. If someone wrote about this I didn't see it.

They said that using instruments is not a "salvation issue". Both services will use acappella music for now, but the first service will now get a praise team like the second service. And the second service will have more creative worship.

But the youth group gets to start using instrumental music. They said light acoustical instruments.

This seems like a huge change so I was surprised not to see it here yet.


[/color]</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></td></tr></table>

_________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]NOTE:The information above has been submitted anonymously. Meanwhile, we have opted to substitute "Concerned" for "Anonymous" as the name. The message remains unedited.
-----------------------[/color]
[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]We've heard from the author who is a long-time member of Madison and would like to be identified as "MCC-Torn" [... and appropriately so].[/color]
=================================================



=================================================
[color=#0000FF" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps ANATHEMA
By Ken Sublett[/color]



Heritage Church of Christ following the ACU pattern has imposed what he calls instrumental music.

http://www.piney.com/Heritage.Church.of ... Music.html

Jim Hackney led by the NACC at ACU gives his "proof texts" all of which are lies because he does not know the context.

http://www.piney.com/Jim.Hackney.Instru ... rship.html

The expression "having cymbals and psalteries and harps" is not a pattern for Christian worship: it is defined as the worship of Apollo (abaddon, Apollyon) and Dionysus first outed at Mount Sinai. If God turned them over to worship the starry host, and scholars agree that the Jews worshipped the starry host on their way back to Babylon, why do you suppose that latter day elders fulfil the warning of Paul against wolves and violently impose the same patternism: Who knows? both the Shadow and any Bible student knows.

http://www.piney.com/Having.Cymbals.and ... s.and.html
Mr. Cruz,
in your post on 13 June at 3:27 your conclusion stated "Once, the brotherhood knows about what Madison is doing to achieve its goal of increased membership by whatever means, I wonder if certain churches or elders of other congregations will be inquiring or writing to Madison's leaders about this "endeavor." I know, I know about congregational autonomy. But this is not an "autonomy" issue. This is a New Testament church issue!!!"

You're right....so right. It isn't about congregational autonomy....it's about following Jesus and you not going about like an old lady craving her gossip. You are acting the opposite of what Jesus showed us to do and be. You and all the rest here slander any brother or sister that doesn't agree to your ideology. I mentioned "your ideology" for it certainly isn't that of God. You slander the elders of the congregation where you attend. I would put your gossip levels against those of anyone. Do you not care where your soul is eventually going?

As the great John Watson Smith spoke of......comments welcome
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