A NEW CYCLE: take the Alan Challenge

Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 10th, 2009, 8:14 pm #11

Ray denies that the SPIRIT OF CHRIST commanded the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. The SPIRITUAL thread speaks only of Abraham, Moses and the PROPHETS. The kings were given in God's ANGER and taken away in His anger to carry out the captivity and death sentence imposed because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai:

Acts 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge?
......the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer
......by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
Acts 7:36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt,
......and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,

......A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
......him shall ye hear.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness
......with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina,
......and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,


The Spirit of Christ OUTLAWED "vocal and instrumental rejoicing" when the Qahal, synagotue or church in the wilderness assembled." How many times does it take?

Number 57 is NOT a Psalm and therefore not suitable for use as a TEACHING PSALM. It is a: There are only 50 true Psalms not restricted and NONE of them include instruments. #4387 is Miktam 57:

4387. miktam, mik-tawm´; from 3799; an engraving, i.e. (techn.) a poem:Michtam.
3799. katham, kaw-tham´; a primitive root; properly, to carve or engrave, i.e. (by implication) to inscribe indelibly:mark.

1Sam. 21:13 And he changed his behaviour before them,
......and feigned himself mad in their hands,
......and scrabbled on the doors of the gate,
......and let his spittle fall down upon his beard.

This scrabble has the same meaning.8427. tavah, taw-vaw´; a primitive root; to mark out, i.e. (primitive) scratch or (definite) imprint:scrabble, set (a mark)

In many of the ancient documents from Babylon and other nations, the gods were believed to be inside of musical instruments which were made into the form of a bull (harp). The sounds of the strings was sold to be the voice of the god inside of the idols which even had "speaking tubes" so the manipulator could "discover" the needs of the worshipper and have the idol speak the answer to them (This was before radio).

Awake, my soul! Awake, harp and lyre! I will awaken the dawn. Psalm 57:8

However, Habakkuk pronounced:

Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. Habakkuk 2:19

But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. Habakkuk 2:20


DAVID'S AROUSERS: don't get upset: God turned Israel over to worship the starry host.

"In an inscription from Cyprus, in one from Rhodes and in several from around the district of Carthage, there are references to important personages who bear the title Mqm'lm which we can translate as AROUSERS of the god.'" (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, Doubleday, p. 247).

"We even have a mention at a later date of a similar custom in connection with the cult in Jerusalem, where certain Levites, called me'oreim, 'AROUSERS,' sang (every morning?) this verse from "Ps 44:23: "Awake, O Lord! Why do you sleep? Rouse yourself! Do not reject us forever." The Talmud tells us that John Hyrcanus suppressed the practice because it recalled too readily a pagan custom." (Roland de Vaux, p. 247).


Soothsayers: Anan (h6049) aw-nan'; a prim. root; to cover; used only as denom. from 6051, to cloud over; fig. to act covertly, i. e. practise magic: - * bring, enchanter, Meonemin, observer of times, soothsayer, sorcerer.

THE KING, KINGDOM, TEMPLE ETC WERE TURNED OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE RELIGIOUS PRCTICES OF THE ISRAELITE TEMPLE-STATE WHICH IS NOT EXACTLY LIKE THAT OF THE OTHER NATIONS SUCH AS BABLON. THAT IS WHAT THEY PRAYED FOR AND WHAT GOD GAVE THEM.

Under "Star Worship" the Jewish Encyclopedia states:

"Star Worship" is perhaps the oldest form of idolatry practiced by the ancients. The observation of the stars in the East very early led the people to regard the planets [wandering stars] and the fixed stars as gods. The religion of the ancient Egyptians is known to have consisted preeminently of Sun-worship. Moses sternly warned the Israelites against worshipping the Sun, Moon, stars, and all the hosts of heaven (Deuteronomy 4:19; 17:3). The Israelites fell into this kind of idolatry and as early as the time of Amos they had the images of Siccuth and Chium, 'the stars of their god' (Amos 5:26); the latter name is generally supposed to denote the planet Saturn. [666] That the Kingdom of Israel fell earlier than that of Judah is stated (II Kings 17:16) to have been due, among other causes, to its worshipping the host of heaven.

But the Kingdom of Judah in its later period seems to have outdone the Northern Kingdom [Israel] in star-worship." Of Manasseh it is related that he built altars to all the hosts of heaven in the two courts of the house of YHWY, and it seems it was the practice of even Kings before him to appoint priests who offered sacrifices to the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and all the hosts of heaven. Altars for star-worship were built on the roofs of the houses, and horses and chariots were dedicated to the worship of the Sun. (II Kings 21:5; 23:4-5, 11-12) Star-worship continued in Judah until the 18th year of Josiah's reign (621 B.C.) when the King took measures to abolish all kinds of idolatry. But although star-worship was then abolished as a public cult, it was practiced privately by individuals who worshipped the heavenly bodies, and poured out libations to them on the roofs of their houses (Zephaniah 1:5; Jeremiah 8:2; 19:13) Jeremiah, who prophesied in the sixth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin (591 B.C.) describes the worship of the Sun as practiced in the court of the Temple (Ezekiel 8:16) and that even after the destruction of the Temple the women insisted on continuing to worship the Queen of Heaven.
"The ancient Hebrews, being nomads like the Arabs, favored the Moon, while the Babylonians, who were an agricultural nation, preferred the Sun. But, as appears from Ezekiel 20:7-8 the Moon-worship of the Israelites, even while they were still in Egypt was combined with Sun-worship."


That means that ALL of those who have been led by the nose [in all the wrong places] by the NACC and their change agents have lied about every passage in the Bible and have been wittingly or HALF-wittingly tried to TAKE YOU CAPTIVE to the same MOTHER OF HARLOTS (Rev 17) who uses lusted after FRUITS as slick speakers, singers and instrument players whom John and all known evidence identifies as SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world. She/he/it began in the garden of Eden as the singing and harp playing prostitute. You had better FLEE BABYLON if it is not too late: the Bible, the Book of Enoch and common knowledges knows that once you have been forced to make the MUSIC IS WORSHIP CONNECTION you are hard wired and your PURPOSE DRIVEN life is to try to seduce everyone else to give you aid and comfort because you know your fate.

Jesus cast the musical minstrels OUT like dung and marked the MEN of that generation (race of vipers) as belonging to the marketplace with the pipers, singers and dancers where they sold radishes, sermons, young "chorus leaders" and whatever your heart lusted after. Jesus as the Alpha and Omega wrote Revelation 17-18 which probably shows that by the time you hear the MUSIC in the "holy places" your LAMPSTAND was removed by Jesus on His last visit: in the conclusion about the musical people in Amos God says "I will not pass this way again."
Quote
Share

Ray
Ray

February 11th, 2009, 1:26 pm #12

...instead he is long-winded, confusing, deceptive, and slanderously puts his words in the mouths of others.

Alan's simple challenge that Ken is unable to meet: "I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song.""
Quote
Share

Ray
Ray

February 11th, 2009, 1:30 pm #13

Ray denies that the SPIRIT OF CHRIST commanded the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. The SPIRITUAL thread speaks only of Abraham, Moses and the PROPHETS. The kings were given in God's ANGER and taken away in His anger to carry out the captivity and death sentence imposed because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai:

Acts 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge?
......the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer
......by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
Acts 7:36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt,
......and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,

......A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
......him shall ye hear.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness
......with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina,
......and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,


The Spirit of Christ OUTLAWED "vocal and instrumental rejoicing" when the Qahal, synagotue or church in the wilderness assembled." How many times does it take?

Number 57 is NOT a Psalm and therefore not suitable for use as a TEACHING PSALM. It is a: There are only 50 true Psalms not restricted and NONE of them include instruments. #4387 is Miktam 57:

4387. miktam, mik-tawm´; from 3799; an engraving, i.e. (techn.) a poem:Michtam.
3799. katham, kaw-tham´; a primitive root; properly, to carve or engrave, i.e. (by implication) to inscribe indelibly:mark.

1Sam. 21:13 And he changed his behaviour before them,
......and feigned himself mad in their hands,
......and scrabbled on the doors of the gate,
......and let his spittle fall down upon his beard.

This scrabble has the same meaning.8427. tavah, taw-vaw´; a primitive root; to mark out, i.e. (primitive) scratch or (definite) imprint:scrabble, set (a mark)

In many of the ancient documents from Babylon and other nations, the gods were believed to be inside of musical instruments which were made into the form of a bull (harp). The sounds of the strings was sold to be the voice of the god inside of the idols which even had "speaking tubes" so the manipulator could "discover" the needs of the worshipper and have the idol speak the answer to them (This was before radio).

Awake, my soul! Awake, harp and lyre! I will awaken the dawn. Psalm 57:8

However, Habakkuk pronounced:

Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. Habakkuk 2:19

But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. Habakkuk 2:20


DAVID'S AROUSERS: don't get upset: God turned Israel over to worship the starry host.

"In an inscription from Cyprus, in one from Rhodes and in several from around the district of Carthage, there are references to important personages who bear the title Mqm'lm which we can translate as AROUSERS of the god.'" (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, Doubleday, p. 247).

"We even have a mention at a later date of a similar custom in connection with the cult in Jerusalem, where certain Levites, called me'oreim, 'AROUSERS,' sang (every morning?) this verse from "Ps 44:23: "Awake, O Lord! Why do you sleep? Rouse yourself! Do not reject us forever." The Talmud tells us that John Hyrcanus suppressed the practice because it recalled too readily a pagan custom." (Roland de Vaux, p. 247).


Soothsayers: Anan (h6049) aw-nan'; a prim. root; to cover; used only as denom. from 6051, to cloud over; fig. to act covertly, i. e. practise magic: - * bring, enchanter, Meonemin, observer of times, soothsayer, sorcerer.

THE KING, KINGDOM, TEMPLE ETC WERE TURNED OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE RELIGIOUS PRCTICES OF THE ISRAELITE TEMPLE-STATE WHICH IS NOT EXACTLY LIKE THAT OF THE OTHER NATIONS SUCH AS BABLON. THAT IS WHAT THEY PRAYED FOR AND WHAT GOD GAVE THEM.

Under "Star Worship" the Jewish Encyclopedia states:

"Star Worship" is perhaps the oldest form of idolatry practiced by the ancients. The observation of the stars in the East very early led the people to regard the planets [wandering stars] and the fixed stars as gods. The religion of the ancient Egyptians is known to have consisted preeminently of Sun-worship. Moses sternly warned the Israelites against worshipping the Sun, Moon, stars, and all the hosts of heaven (Deuteronomy 4:19; 17:3). The Israelites fell into this kind of idolatry and as early as the time of Amos they had the images of Siccuth and Chium, 'the stars of their god' (Amos 5:26); the latter name is generally supposed to denote the planet Saturn. [666] That the Kingdom of Israel fell earlier than that of Judah is stated (II Kings 17:16) to have been due, among other causes, to its worshipping the host of heaven.

But the Kingdom of Judah in its later period seems to have outdone the Northern Kingdom [Israel] in star-worship." Of Manasseh it is related that he built altars to all the hosts of heaven in the two courts of the house of YHWY, and it seems it was the practice of even Kings before him to appoint priests who offered sacrifices to the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and all the hosts of heaven. Altars for star-worship were built on the roofs of the houses, and horses and chariots were dedicated to the worship of the Sun. (II Kings 21:5; 23:4-5, 11-12) Star-worship continued in Judah until the 18th year of Josiah's reign (621 B.C.) when the King took measures to abolish all kinds of idolatry. But although star-worship was then abolished as a public cult, it was practiced privately by individuals who worshipped the heavenly bodies, and poured out libations to them on the roofs of their houses (Zephaniah 1:5; Jeremiah 8:2; 19:13) Jeremiah, who prophesied in the sixth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin (591 B.C.) describes the worship of the Sun as practiced in the court of the Temple (Ezekiel 8:16) and that even after the destruction of the Temple the women insisted on continuing to worship the Queen of Heaven.
"The ancient Hebrews, being nomads like the Arabs, favored the Moon, while the Babylonians, who were an agricultural nation, preferred the Sun. But, as appears from Ezekiel 20:7-8 the Moon-worship of the Israelites, even while they were still in Egypt was combined with Sun-worship."


That means that ALL of those who have been led by the nose [in all the wrong places] by the NACC and their change agents have lied about every passage in the Bible and have been wittingly or HALF-wittingly tried to TAKE YOU CAPTIVE to the same MOTHER OF HARLOTS (Rev 17) who uses lusted after FRUITS as slick speakers, singers and instrument players whom John and all known evidence identifies as SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world. She/he/it began in the garden of Eden as the singing and harp playing prostitute. You had better FLEE BABYLON if it is not too late: the Bible, the Book of Enoch and common knowledges knows that once you have been forced to make the MUSIC IS WORSHIP CONNECTION you are hard wired and your PURPOSE DRIVEN life is to try to seduce everyone else to give you aid and comfort because you know your fate.

Jesus cast the musical minstrels OUT like dung and marked the MEN of that generation (race of vipers) as belonging to the marketplace with the pipers, singers and dancers where they sold radishes, sermons, young "chorus leaders" and whatever your heart lusted after. Jesus as the Alpha and Omega wrote Revelation 17-18 which probably shows that by the time you hear the MUSIC in the "holy places" your LAMPSTAND was removed by Jesus on His last visit: in the conclusion about the musical people in Amos God says "I will not pass this way again."
Behold, the simplicity of the Holy Word-Psalm 108 (KJV)

A Song or Psalm of David.

1 O God, my heart is fixed; I will sing and give praise, even with my glory. 2 Awake, psaltery and harp: I myself will awake early. 3 I will praise thee, O LORD, among the people: and I will sing praises unto thee among the nations. 4 For thy mercy is great above the heavens: and thy truth reacheth unto the clouds. 5 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens: and thy glory above all the earth;

6 That thy beloved may be delivered: save with thy right hand, and answer me. 7 God hath spoken in his holiness; I will rejoice, I will divide Shechem, and mete out the valley of Succoth. 8 Gilead is mine; Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is my lawgiver; 9 Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe; over Philistia will I triumph. 10 Who will bring me into the strong city? who will lead me into Edom? 11 Wilt not thou, O God, who hast cast us off? and wilt not thou, O God, go forth with our hosts? 12 Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. 13 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he it is that shall tread down our enemies.
Quote
Share

Matt
Matt

February 11th, 2009, 10:27 pm #14


After reading Ken's "responses" to the simple question that Alan posted, it has become abundantly clear that he cannot turn off the antiquity/Mythology/Sexual/ mumbo jumbo and answer a simple question.

If he cannot, can anyone?

Please, using Book, Chapter and Verse, show me where it is a sin to use a musical instrument to worship God. I will help you out some, it is in the same BCV that does the following:

1. allows Wed. night Bible services
2. allows a paid full time preacher
3. allows there to be a "song leader"
4. allows there to be "Bible Class"
5. orders us to take communion every Sunday morning
6. allows the communion to consist of Welch's grape juice, even though no such product existed in Bible times.
7. allows there to be youth groups or youth ministers.
8. clearly bans miracles, speaking in tongues, prophecy etc.
9. allows multiple cups to be used in communion, etc.

This could go on forever. All I ask is for someone to calmly and rationally explain why they do not believe instruments should be used in worship and then give Biblical support for this belief.
Quote
Share

Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 12th, 2009, 5:35 am #15

Alan wrote: Since Donnie and Joe know so much more regarding the doctrine of Christ than anyone else, I was just wondering if they could tell exactly what verses that Jesus spoke in regards to not having instrumental music.

Please be specific. I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song."

This site is just so knowledgable, I know you can find it.

Until then.....


Alan, it is time to recycle some BASICS as in summer training camp: lets begin: "THIS is a baseball." It is well documented in the Bible and especially the Greek literature that people use music as SORCERY and so says John in Revelation 18). The only LEGALISM word I can find is the Greek NOMOS: that speaks of HUMAN MADE laws which are made to CHARM or enchant the citizens into submission so that no one will dare question the LAW MAKERS. If you say that THERE IS NOTHING repudiating instruments in the Bible and nothing commanding them then it is CERTAIN that the very late use of music in the "church" is a NOMOS which usually applied to Apollo (Abaddon, Apollon" and his MUSES (Rev 18) who were dirty adulteresses.

Maybe if you grasped that it was the Spirit of Christ who commanded the Holy Convocation for the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. It was INCLUSIVE of Rest, reading and rehearsing the Word. They were restricted to their own precincts to prevent them from attending the Seventh day paganism which originated in Babylon along with the tithe. It was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing. That command was never rescinded and never violated by the SPIRITUAL THREAD off Israel who were QUARANTINED from the sacrificial or exorcism noise (never music) when they warriors "made the lambs dumb before the slaughter.

I need to begin there, but here is a bit of information and REMEMBER that when you say that Jesus didn't CONDEMN the use of instruments you are gambling your soul on people who cannot DEFINE words. You have the duty to define words before you DELIBERATELY sow discord and offend many. If you cannot FIND the clear evidence then I submit that you have not yet become a disciple with A holy spirit or A good conscience, consciousness or a co-perception of the Word

You will remember that Jesus spoke to the false Jews in parables by which truth had been hidden from the foundation of the world. The easiest way to hide the truth in plain sight is to "translate" the Bible "using different words for a pleasing variety" even says the KJV people. This makes it easy to further pervert or corrupt the word meaning "selling learning at retail" by defining words and context to make it POWERFUL in trying to manipulate people's minds: this is called witchcraft or sorcery by John speaking of speakers, singers and instrument players who refuse to "sing that which is written" with one mind and one mouth and to "teach that which has been taught." It is a plot by God who needs no wimpy burgers.

John refused to baptize the dominant clergy class and called them a generation or RACE of vipers. During the curse of the sacrificial system the "instruments" of the warrior classes bearing Canaanite guild names were sounded (not music) during the burning of the GOATS which were sacrificed to prevent sacrificing TO THE GOATS defined in Greek as the CAPELLA from which we get the sad tragedy songs by the a capellas.

Peter told the people to SAVE YOURSELVES from this CROOKED RACE. Crooked is opposite to the orthodox: MYTHS always written by poets and musicians who could never write truth.

Skolios A. curved, bent (opposite to orthos, euthus) muthos
III. skolion, to, intestine, splanchana kai nephron kai skolion

Muthos used with tragoidia, mimesis, poetes etc. Latin fabula II. In partic. (freq. and class.), a fictitious narrative, a tale, story; 1. Most freq., a dramatic poem, drama, play; tragôidia, mimêsis, poiêtês, ; muthoisin skoliois Hes.Op.194
2. fiction (opposite logos, historic truth), Pi.O.1.29 (pl.), N.7.23 (pl.), Pl.Phd.61b, Prt.320c, 324d, etc.


Don't miss the point that the VIPER GENERATION from Cain (meaning a musical note) murdered Seth:

Matt 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Matt 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Matt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you
........prophets, and wise men, and scribes:
........and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
........and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
........and persecute them from city to city:
Matt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
........from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias,
........whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


Because Jesus warned about parables from the foundation of the world, don't miss the point that the Bible is the history of the Hebrew people and that they existed at the time of Cain: cain is said to be OF that wicked one and Eve was wholly seduced in a sexual sense enabled by music. More later.

Rev. 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

they claim they are Jews #2453 Ioudas - Judas; in Hebrew 3063 - Yehudah - a descendant of Judah. The paid their way into the Herodian ruling class. The Saducean priesthood during the first century were not of Aaron but consisted of four families: Boethus, Hanan, Kimchit, and Phiabi. They intermarried with the Herodians, the Royal Rulers of the State of Israel, who were, themselves Edomites (Idumeans) from the Petra region (or Edom) and descendants of Esau (or Seir, which means "shaggy, he-goat, devil"), thus the "synagogue of Satan" leaders claimed to be Jews but were Edomites appointed by the Herodian rulers under Rome; Herod Antipas, for instance, and Pontius Pilate held the same governmental position for Rome, the reason for much rivalry between them); since Esau was "red and hairy" his nickname was Edom, and he lived in Seir where Ham's descendants settled.


As such they "wore the hat of Hermes" from which the musical discorders get the new hermeneutic. You might want to see how this was music and sex as the abomination of desolation" in the Jerusalem temple: some were still active and tried to seduce Jesus shown when He called the MEN of that generation like CHILDREN which identified the "youth ministers" or chorus leaders used and abused: He consigned the pipers, singers and dancers to the marketplace where all pagan and perverted worship took place.

http://www.piney.com/2Macc.html

So we might circle back to the beginning in Genesis where the meaning of SERPENT is "a musical enchanter(ess)." The king/queen of Tyre used music to steal property and the "souls of men" and is called the "singing and harp playing prostitute." Now, only a legalist would look for a LAW OF SILENCE (invented by the musical group) which says "thou shalt not play the musical prostitute." Stinkty or slithering animals are symbols of the enemies of the Words of God.

The serpent is related to brass and the flute which is lumped with pollute and prostitute as the meaning of when "men began to CALL upon the name of the Lord."

Gen. 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth:
........For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Gen. 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos:
........then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

582. enowsh, en-oshe´; from 605; properly, a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified 120); hence, a man in general (singly or collectively):--another, x (blood-)thirsty, certain, chap(-man); divers, fellow, x in the flower of their age, husband, (certain, mortal) man, people, person, servant, some (x of them), + stranger, those, + their trade. It is often unexpressed in the English versions, especially when used in apposition with another word . Compare 376.

605. Anash, aw-nash´; a primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy:--desperate(-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.


It was in this "generation" that false worship began. We know that Jubal "handled" musical instruments meaning "without authority.." When men FALL from grace it is always caused or MARKED by the use of music. What better supernatural sign of false prophets? The meaning of "began to call upon the name of the Lord" was how the Israelites--given The Book of The covenant of grace, ROSE up to play in musical idolatry. This was PROFANING the sabbath which was REST FROM the pagan seventh day worship rituals marked by music to ENCHANT or TRANQUALIZE the common fodder. This word is h2490 identical to David's "praise" word which means to MAKE SELF VILE which is the root word for LUCIFER the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden.
"
This word is used of "Lucifer being cast as profane out of Heaven" and the equivalent word when Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG.

This word is used interchangeably as a "melody" word and normally marked women or male prostitute who prowled around all pagan-like temples of which that in Jerusalem was identified when God "turned them over to worship the starry host."

5059. nagan, naw-gan´; a primitive root; properly, to thrum, i.e. beat a tune with the fingers; expec. to play on a stringed instrument; hence (generally), to make music:--player on instruments, sing to the stringed instruments, melody, ministrel, play(-er, -ing).

Which points to the TOUCH word used by Eve when she was seduced or enchanted by the "serpent" as the name of the Assyrian Enchanter called "the tallest tree in Eden" of which she was seduced but Adam "ate" from the midst willingly.

5060. naga, naw-gah´; a primitive root; properly, to touch, i.e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman); by implication, to reach (figuratively, to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.):--beat, (x be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.

Adam Clark:
Verse 26. Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.] The marginal reading is, Then began men to call themselves by the name of the Lord; which words are supposed to signify that in the time of Enos the true followers of God began to distinguish themselves, and to be distinguished by others, by the appellation of sons of God; those of the other branch of Adam's family, among whom the Divine worship was not observed, being distinguished by the name, children of men. It must not be dissembled that many eminent men have contended that ljwh huchal, which we translate began, should be rendered began profanely, or then profanation began, and from this time they date the origin of idolatry. Most of the Jewish doctors were of this opinion, and Maimonides has discussed it at some length in his Treatise on Idolatry; as this piece is curious, and gives the most probable account of the origin and progress of idolatry, I shall insert it here.


You will remember the false conclusions: Because God created musical Instruments (Bible says Satan did) it is right and proper for us to use ANYTHING that God created in our worship to him. The problem is that you worship the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. Now, see how the earliest recorded commentary uses the same imagination even when "the imagination of the human hear is only evil continually."

"In the days of Enos the sons of Adam erred with great error, and the counsel of the wise men of that age became brutish, and Enos himself was (one) of them that erred; and their error was this:
........they said, Forasmuch as God hath created these stars and spheres
........to govern the world, and set them on high, and imparted honour unto them,
........and they are ministers that minister before him;
........it is meet that men should laud, and glorify, and give them honour.
For this is the will of God, that we magnify and honour whomsoever he magnifieth and honouret; even as a king would have them honoured that stand before him, and this is the honour of the king himself. When this thing was come up into their hearts they began to build temples unto the stars, and to offer sacrifice unto them, and to laud and glorify them with words, and to worship before them, that they might in their evil opinion obtain favour of the Creator; and this was the root of idolatry, &c.

And in process of time there stood up false prophets among the sons of Adam, which said that God had commanded and said unto them, Worship such a star, or all the stars, and do sacrifice unto them thus and thus; and build a temple for it, and make an image of it, that all the people, women, and children may worship it.
........And the false prophet showed them the image
........which he had feigned out of his own heart,
........and said it was the image of such a star,
........which was made known unto him by prophecy.
And they began after this manner to make images in temples, and under trees, and on tops of mountains and hills, and assembled together and worshipped them, &c. And this thing was spread through all the world, to serve images with services different one from another, and to sacrifice unto and worship them.
........So, in process of time, the glorious and fearful name (of God)
........was forgotten out of the mouth of all living,
........and out of their knowledge, and they acknowledged him not.
And there was found no people on the earth that knew aught, save images of wood and stone, and temples of stone, which they had been trained up from their childhood to worship and serve, and to swear by their names. And the wise men that were among them, as the priests and such like, thought there was no God save the stars and spheres, for whose sake and in whose likeness they had made these images; but as for the Rock everlasting,
there was no man that acknowledged him or knew him save a few persons in the world, as Enoch, Methuselah, Noah, Sham, and Heber. And in this way did the world walk and converse till that pillar of the world, Abraham our father, was born." Maim. in Mishn, and Ainsworth in loco.


Moses was writing an inverted version of the Babylon legends used as worship where God had sentenced Israel because of musical idolatry. In the end time worship (now) the same enchanters are used by the Babylon mother of harlot: they are the same lusted after "fruits" spoken of by Amos and as speakers, singers and instrument players they are called SORCERERS. The sound of the millstone was always the way to find the GRINDERS who spread their legs and the "piping sounds" made by the grinding advertised their second occupation.

I will follow up quickly.
1. Christ OUTLAWED vocal and instrumental rejoicing for the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness: the word TRIUMPH OVER or ALARM is what you produce when you MAKE MUSIC which destroys the ability to hold school of the Bible--only.

2. The SPIRITUAL THREAD of the mass of the population attended synagogue or school of the Bible in their own precincts once a week. They were EXCLUDED from the vile sacrificial system: when you heard the NOISE you had better be OUTSIDE OF THE GATES.

3. The sacrificial system had been dead for centuries when Jesus came and was under the Edomites or race of vipers to whom Jesus would not reveal truth.

4. At the same time Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG as Lucifer was CAST AS PROFANE out of heaven. He MARKED the MEN of that time as CHILDREN (perverst re Isa 3) who PIPED hoping to get others to sing or lament and dance the perverted Dionysus "bowing to Baal" OUCH!

5. There is no recorded history before these end times which did not denounce instrumental music based on BIBLICAL LITERACY and common decency.

6. Singing as an ACT was not imposed until they year 373 and split the east church from the west.

7. People who IMPOSE instruments plan to sow discord--upset your comfort zone--to make a place of respect for their musician friends.

8. Therefore, you need a LAW which has Jesus DENYING what He repudiated in all of the Prophets.

For anyone who has ever read the book of Exodus you understand that they fell into musical idolatry which they brought with them from Egypt which had been brought with them from Babylon. God abandoned them to worship the starry hosts and later God gave them kings in His anger and took them away in His anger. They were chosen to put the nation into captivity including confiscating the young men to make and blow instruments before the King's chariots.

The common people were QUARANTINED from the much later unauthorized temple and the ugly sacrifices of innocent animals: the Levitical warrior musicians were to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" and Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would try the same MUSICAL attack on Jesus and fail.

Christ was the ROCK which led and fed the Isralites: when the ELITE (military-clergy) were abandoned to worship the STARRY HOST including Chiun 666, the Sabbath which had been PROFANED by having a religious ritual including music. Therefore, KEEPING the Sabbath meant "keeping it in prison" and people were locked down in their own precincts: a Sabbath Day's journey was what was PERMITTED which was about 700 feet. The same REST or PAUO was given us by Christ who fired the BURDEN LADERS which primarily meant the form of "singing" you children love to use to out yourselves.

The Holy Convocation was held on the FIRST and SEVENTH days of festivals and later on all SABBATH (Rest days) while the RELIGIOUS events such as making offerings was on the DAY AFTER THE SABBATH.

Because the REST was rest FROM the speakers, singers and instruument players including the takers of tithes and "sending out ministers" the Holy Convocation meant only to READ and DISCUSS the Word of God: just what Jesus commanded and Paul inforced.

Num. 10:7 But when the congregation [Qahal, synagogue] is to be gathered together,
ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm.


No one but a son of Aaron was ever allowed to blow the SIGNAL TRUMPETS

Num. 10:8 And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations.

The "musical" instruments were ADDED by David under the KING and COMMANDERS of the Army for the STATE which Nehemiah called Robbers and Parasites.


Both Calvin and Luther grasped that this was a direct command NOT to call or conduct the church in the wilderness with vocal or instrumental rejoicing because it always creates a sense of panic and because you DO NOT call an assembly God has not authorized.

Nehemiah defined the King, Priests and false prophets of being ROBBERS and PARASITES. When he held the Holy convocation as COMMANDED by Christ for the synagogue (ekklesia):

Neh. 8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man
........ into the street that was before the water gate;
........and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring
........the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

Neh. 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women,
........and all that could hear with understanding,
........upon the first day of the seventh month.
Neh. 8:3 And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate
........from the morning until midday, before the men and the women,
........and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive
Neh. 8:4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose;
........and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah,
........on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum,
........and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.

Neh. 8:5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;)
........and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

Neh. 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen,
........with lifting up their hands [PALMS]: and they bowed their heads,
........and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground unto the book of the law.

HERE IS WHAT THE PARASITES DID: Jesus paid it all but YOU better pay ME

Truphaô 2.revel in, LXXSi.14.4 ; delight in, .Ne.9.25. [Nehemiah called the kings-priests parasites]
A. live softly, luxuriously, fare sumptuously, of a child, leukos . Ep.Jac.5.5, Gal.6.416, etc.; paison, truphêson, zêson

paison paizô [pais] 4. to play (on an instrument), to sport, play, jest, joke, to make sport of one, mock him,
III. give oneself airs, be dainty, fastidious, connected to the Polus, Spoiled pets: en tais ekklêsiais t. kai kolakeuesthai, of the people,


That means the SPOILED PETS OF THE EKKLESIA OR CHURCH.

THE SYNAGOGUE WAS LIMITED SOLELY TO an opening blessing and:

Why do you READ the word in order to preach it?

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city
........them that preach him,
........being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


HERE IS WHAT PAUL DID AND WHAT HE COMMANDED TIMOTHY TO DO TO HOLD "CHURCH"

1Tim. 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
1Tim. 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
Quote
Share

Stephen
Stephen

February 12th, 2009, 10:35 pm #16

Tonight, like every Thursday night, I will get together with a group of my friends here at college and we will worship Jesus. I play guitar. I love to praise Jesus through playing my guitar and singing words from my heart to Him. Jesus loves a heart of sincere worship and I feel his love when I play and sing. One of my professors here at school was a translator of the New Testament for the New Living Translation. He is a loving man of God and a terrific biblical scholar. His goal with the NLT was to translate God's Word accurately from the best ancient Greek and Latin texts we have available in an understandable and readable way. This was the same goal scholars who worked with the King James Version. Different translations are good for gaining unique insights into the Bible. I sincerely wish I was skilled enough in Greek to translate the NT myself and experience God's word in a way that scholars have throughout the centuries.

To everyone on this site my greatest concern with its content is that it consists of arguments severely lacking in love. I get very discouraged when I read threads like these. Discussion is important to growth in Jesus but bickering is nothing but harmful. Brother attacking brother is not the life exemplified by Jesus.

Ken, I get the feeling that you often feel very alone. You feel that everyone has forsaken the faith except you; that you are the only one still trying to live the right way for God. I know how you feel. I'm a Christian in college. Almost everyday I walk to class and feel alone. You and I are the same in this way. Yet I am reminded of the story of Elijah. He felt alone too; like the only man left in the whole world who still loved God. What was God's response to Elijah's sorrow and lonliness? "Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." There are still many people that love God, Ken. You have brothers and sisters in Christ in places you don't even realize. I'm one of them.

In His Love,
Stephen
Quote
Share

Anonymous
Anonymous

February 13th, 2009, 6:52 pm #17

Yes, I am aware that there are more than 7,000 who have not bowed to Baal but my target are the ones who gleefully lie, cheat and steal the church house of widows to turn then into a theater for holy entertainment. I assure you that no one has taken a church of Christ captive--about 11 out of up to 18,000--who has not deliberately lied to God and about God and taken their congregation captive to the CURSE which God imposed on Israel BECAUSE of of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai: just read Acts 7 and they can get away with being Old Testament illiterate and therefore legalistic. I am quite certain that you don't know anyone who knows what happened at Mount Sinai. I rest assured that I am fairly alone because I have the Bible and all recorded history from the olden times on my side.

http://www.piney.com/MuSinai.html

Then you can see how ALL of the prophets speaking by the Spirit of Christ repudiated the whole degenerate monarchy and called them robbers and parasites.

http://www.piney.com/MuSinai2.html

No, Stephen, you missed out on psychology and mind reading

I live on the side of a hill in a valley with 115 acres with a creek running through it: it is fed by two major branches leaping over waterfalls on the notrh and 5 such branches from the south. I have an old county road running through it with neighbors on both sides who visit on horses or 4 wheelers. I have deer, wolves (especially pear ripening time), coyotes and lots of smaller cretures.

I have one wife of 52 years, one dog, one cat and a lovely house. Since schools don't teach people to go into all the world I have taken that mission. Here is a short map history of my congregation by size.

http://www4.clustrmaps.com/counter/maps ... &map=world

And a smaller map which shows locations from just last June.

http://www4.clustrmaps.com/counter/maps ... &map=world

Since I post Biblical and historic literature all of which repudiates music as WORSHIP and defines it as witchery or as John does in Revelation 18 sorcers who HAD deceived the whole world. It is a fact that I haven't heard of one preacher ot Greek scholar who does not THINK that the Bible commanded music.

Paul's UNIQUE worship word is to give heed to the Word of God and thus the Church in the Wilderness was commanded in the wilderness, affirmed by Jesus Christ, commanded by Paul and practiced before the first sowers of discord as late as 373 which divided the east from the west.

I can tell you without any blushing that you don't know a preacher or "scholar" who has ever read the literature whose links I give you free of charge. If I seem alone in these end times be assured that you will find NO Biblical text or any recorded literature which does not know that MUSIC tends to induce a DRUG HIGH and you THINK that you are praiseing God but you are stroking your own pleasure centers. Huxley speaking of the actors and musicians promoted by Lynn Ancerson etal and quoting Huxley says that the performing changes their character and they are engaging in emotional masturbation. The Egyptians called it and performed it with literal masturbation on their "gods" while claiming to praise them. The vineyard lady, Carol Wimber, promoter of the new style praise singing from old style Babylon promotes it as a sexual-like climax with the spirit. Woe.

http://www.piney.com/VineyardIntimacy.html

There was never any PRAISE singing or instruments in any institution of God and the TEMPLE-STATE was permitted as a curse as God "turned them over to worship the starry host" BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

The praise singer was called a prophesier (whom God does not recognize) or sorcery and because he/she was emotionally and sexually abnormal his/her/its antics were sold to the IGNORANT as the spirit of the gods inside: nothing much has changed and the praise singer was the world's OLDEST profession. The praise leader or precentor is called "the oldest heresy largely pervading the church."

http://www.piney.com/MuPraisePr1.html

http://www.piney.com/MuEncomiast.html

"Alexander, on the other hand, preferred his native place, urging very truly that an enterprise like theirs required congenial soil to give it a start,

in the shape of 'fat-heads' and simpletons; that was a fair description, he said, of the Paphlagonians beyond Abonutichus;

they were mostly superstitious and well-to-do; one had only to go there with someone to play the flute, the tambourine, or the cymbals, set the proverbial mantic sieve a-spinning, and there they would all be gaping as if he were a god from heaven.


I know some things the scholars will never know: for instance, the use of music was always a way to deceive the ignorant classes to force them into captivity. When educated men met together and wanted to discuss an issue they sent the flute-girl (synonym for prostitute) or the harp-player out because the music seduced them into "getting drunk on wine" and doing nasty things to one another.

I'm heading upstairs for another cup of coffee or perhaps noon feeding and I expect to be pounced on by a kitten and a wife who shares my HEAVENLY LONELINESS.
Quote
Share

Stephen
Stephen

February 17th, 2009, 6:30 pm #18

I found your response interesting. Honestly a bit offensive at times but it's ok no big deal. I think your description of instrumental worship as "emotional masturbation" excessive but nevertheless I can agree with you in some ways. Music, be it secular or in church, can be emotionally manipulative. I find often times in churches I visit that music is idolized. People worry so much about the quality of sound or getting just the right mood that the Holy Spirit gets lost in the shuffle. These, however, are human faults in using music in worship. I believe music is a terrific gift from God and when employed properly with an attitude of humility to God it can be a tremendous blessing to people and Jesus Himself.

That being said I'd like to engage in some friendly dialogue on a few Scriptures. I'm curious to know what your interpretation is.

The first topic is King David and his use of instruments in worship. David himself was described as a man after God's own heart and was also a skilled harp player. "Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him." -1 Samuel 16:22-24

I'm also curious about your thoughts on the 288 Levite musicians David employed for worship. (1 Chronicles 25:1-7)

The third passage is a story from the life of Elisha in which he calls for a musician in order to focus his mind and heart in a worshipful attitude that God honors. "But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the LORD came upon him." -2 Kings 3:15

Finally, I'm wanting to know your interpretation on a text out of Revelation. "And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." -Revelation 5:7-10

To me this verse at most strongly indicates that instrumental worship occurs in heaven and the least John doesn't look poorly upon the use of instruments in worship.

Anyways, hope to hear from you soon...

In His Love,
Stephen

Quote
Share

Anonymous
Anonymous

February 18th, 2009, 8:56 pm #19

Sorry about the slows: I have been having forum editor problems.

I found your response interesting. Honestly a bit offensive at times but it's ok no big deal. I think your description of instrumental worship as "emotional masturbation" excessive but nevertheless I can agree with you in some ways. Music, be it secular or in church, can be emotionally manipulative. I find often times in churches I visit that music is idolized. People worry so much about the quality of sound or getting just the right mood that the Holy Spirit gets lost in the shuffle. These, however, are human faults in using music in worship. I believe music is a terrific gift from God and when employed properly with an attitude of humility to God it can be a tremendous blessing to people and Jesus Himself.

I will dwell on this a bit: I believe that I have done more research on the music issue thean most and I can honestly say that the religious music ritual has no other meaning except the superstituous "prophesiers" who were emotionally and sexually abnormal. Because David made the radical switch of letting the warrior instrument players--which needed no authority if you wanted to turn the enemy into cowards--was abnormal. The warrior musicians and their "praise psalms" was a threat always carried out: If you don't turn coward we will Rape you, Rob you and Rapture you.

When Jesus spoke of the MEN of that generation like CHILDREN who PIPED trying to get everyone to sing or lament and dance this was the INITIATION of the always-homosexual priests of Dionysys, Cybele or the mother goddess in Revelation 17. She used lusted after FRUITS as performance preachers, singers and instrument players whom John called sorcerers. David introduced MALES as singer/musicians and the names of the guilds, their dress, their falsetto style and the names of their instruments were feminie or effeminate. When David stripped down to his ephod.


David made himself vile and would be honored by the women who would be camp followers. Here is what happened:

2 Sam 6:5 And David and all the house of Israel PLAYED before the Lord
........on all manner of instruments made of fir wood,
........ even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels,
........ and on cornets, and on cymbals.


This was the same "rising up to play" at Mount Sinai:
The word PLAY was confessed by David to MAKE SELF VILE and he did it to be honored by the CAMP FOLLOWER GIRLS:

lu-do to sport, to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song:
C. Ludere aliquem or aliquid, to play, mock, imitate, to imitate work, make believe work, -PARASITES-

........2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness,
........as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes,
........sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

........Truphaô , ( -truphe- ) A. live softly, luxuriously, fare sumptuously, paison, paison

paizô -pais-. to play (on an instrument), to sport, play, jest, joke, to make sport of one, mock him,

B. To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play,"

........Nu-do I. to make naked or bare; to strip, bare, lay bare,
........expose to view, uncover

............Scurra , ae, m. 1. A city buffoon, droll, jester (usually in the suite of wealthy persons,
............and accordingly a kind of parasite; syn.: -Of the clown in a pantomime, sannio, parasitus)

............Sannio ,
............ I. one who makes mimicking grimaces, a buffoon
............Parasi-tus , i, m., = parasitos, lit. one who eats with another; hence,
............ parasitus Phoebi, a player, actor -For APOLLO or Apollyon and his MUSES-


Jesus said:

Mt.11:28 Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Phorizo (g5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to load up (prop. as aa vessel or animal),
i.e. (fig.) to overburden with ceremony (or spiritual anxiety): - lade, be heavy laden.


Paul outlawed this as SELF PLEASURE in Romans 15 which includes music and all of the hypocritic arts and crafts. Rather, the church is to pleas others for their GOOD and for their EDIFICATION or EDUCATION. This commanded please word means to inform and educate: the only purpose of the church.

Phort-izô

Load them with burdens, to carry away a load of honey, vision encumbering,

This points to a man seeking Phoibou (Apollo, Abaddon, Apollyon god of fear and homosexual worship) sang his victory song, won married his own mother as the prize.

Mim-etes A. imitator, grammatônforgers, Scribes. Lib. Ep.115.4.
II. artist (cf. >mimesis one who mpersonates characters, as an actor or poet,
2. coupled with >goes, mere actor, impostor,
........Similar Latin: masturbtor I.one who defiles himself (post-Aug.), Mart. 14, 203, 2.

Doxo mimetes , one who stones, their oppressor, deikelikas one who represents,
........ hupokrites Aristotle, Poetics, how a hypocrite should tell lies.

........Plato, Statesman -303c- as not being statesmen,
........but partisans and since they preside over the greatest counterfeits,
........they are themselves counterfeits, and since they are the greatest of imitators and cheats,
........they are the greatest of all sophistsYounger Socrates

........This term sophist seems to have come round quite rightly to the so-called statesmen.
........Stranger

........Well, this part has been exactly like a play.
........Just as we remarked a moment ago, a festive troop of centaurs or satyrs was coming into view,
........which we had to separate from the art of statesmanship; .


Sophis- A.master of one's craft, adept, expert, of diviners Hdt.2.49; of poets, meletan sophistais prosbalon cf. Cratin.
2; of musicians, sophistes . parapaion chelun -hermes harp-

Pindar, Isthmian 1 fine warriors gained fame, and they are celebrated with lyres and flutes in full-voiced harmonies
........ for time beyond reckoning. Heroes who are honored by the grace of Zeus provide a theme for skilled poets

I won't apologize for the picture of a Satyr as a picture of the NEW WINESKINNERS


Quote
Share

Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 18th, 2009, 11:29 pm #20

I found your response interesting. Honestly a bit offensive at times but it's ok no big deal. I think your description of instrumental worship as "emotional masturbation" excessive but nevertheless I can agree with you in some ways. Music, be it secular or in church, can be emotionally manipulative. I find often times in churches I visit that music is idolized. People worry so much about the quality of sound or getting just the right mood that the Holy Spirit gets lost in the shuffle. These, however, are human faults in using music in worship. I believe music is a terrific gift from God and when employed properly with an attitude of humility to God it can be a tremendous blessing to people and Jesus Himself.

That being said I'd like to engage in some friendly dialogue on a few Scriptures. I'm curious to know what your interpretation is.

The first topic is King David and his use of instruments in worship. David himself was described as a man after God's own heart and was also a skilled harp player. "Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him." -1 Samuel 16:22-24

I'm also curious about your thoughts on the 288 Levite musicians David employed for worship. (1 Chronicles 25:1-7)

The third passage is a story from the life of Elisha in which he calls for a musician in order to focus his mind and heart in a worshipful attitude that God honors. "But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the LORD came upon him." -2 Kings 3:15

Finally, I'm wanting to know your interpretation on a text out of Revelation. "And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." -Revelation 5:7-10

To me this verse at most strongly indicates that instrumental worship occurs in heaven and the least John doesn't look poorly upon the use of instruments in worship.

Anyways, hope to hear from you soon...

In His Love,
Stephen
PART Two response.

You need to begin at Mount Sinai where Israel rose up to play in musical idolatry. For that profaning the Sabbath which was for rest and not for worship, God turned them over to worship the starry host and gave them a firey law. The kings were given in God's anger and taken away in His anger because the "elders" fired God. God understood that they wanted to worship like the nations.

Samuel and others make it clear that God pronounced judgment upon the nation and promised that the kings would lead them into slavery and then captivity and death. That even includes the warning that the kings would confiscate the young men to make "instruments of chariots" and like all oriental potentates they would run before the chariots making noise (never called music) and be the first ones killed. Prophets like Nehemiah confirm this and identify the Civil-Military-Clergy complex as robbers and parasites.

Even in the wilderness the Qahal was the synagogue and the holy convocation was to read the Word and discuss it: that was always the pattern for the synagogue and the church.



That being said I'd like to engage in some friendly dialogue on a few Scriptures. I'm curious to know what your interpretation is.

The first topic is King David and his use of instruments in worship.

David himself was described as a man after God's own heart and was also a skilled harp player.


There are two understandings of that: first, most scholars say that it means that "God picked David." Secondly, there are severaly passages which praise people because they "walked in the first ways of David." David was king and the Levitical Warrior instrument players were under the king and commanders of the army. The Temple was not the Tent God had given to David at a Jebusite High place called Sodom.

"...by speaking of Himself as 'greater than the Temple' (Mt. 12:6) and by quoting Hos. 6:6, 'I desire goodness and not sacrifice,' He indicated the relative subortinateness of the temple and its whole system of worship, and in His utterance to the woman of Samaria He intimated the abolition both of the whole idea of the central sanctuary and of the entire ceremonial worship; 'Neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father'; they that worship him must worship in spirit (mind) and truth" (Jn. 4:21, 24)." (Int. Std. Bible Ency., Worship, p. 3111).
Remember that God turned the national system over to worship the starry host: all of The book of The Law was added to protect the weak against the strong but had no spiritual or redeaming value.

http://www.piney.com/First.Samuel.Eight.html
This clearly identifies the kings as those who would carry out the captivity and death penalty. Therefore, whatever you see David doing has nothing to do with the SPIRITUAL THREAD which quarantined the people OUTSIDE THE GATES when they heard the NOISE never called music. The people always attended CHURCH in the wilderness which included REST, reading the Word and discussisng it. It excludes vocal or instrumental rejoicing.

John Calvin Numbers 10

http://www.piney.com/Calvin.Numbers.10.html

Numbers 10:6. When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey:
they shall blow an alarm for their journeys

........Calvin's Latin: 6. Quum autem clanxeritis cum jubilatione secundo, tum proficiscentur castra eorum
........qui castrametantur ad meridiem; cum jubilatione clangent in profectionibus suis.

Numbers 10:7. But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow,
but ye shall not sound an alarm.

........You SHALL NOT: 7. Quando vero congregabitis coetum, clangetis, sed absque jubilatione.

Both the Hebrew and Latin show that the CHURCH was and is a school of the Bible--only: you don't need a LAW not to make music in Bible Class.

THE SYNAGOGUE word used by the Jews is:

6951. Qahal kaw-hawl´; from 6950; assemblage (usually concretely): assembly, company, congregation, multitude

IN THE LATIN THE "SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE" IS CALLED THE ACADAMY

Calvin: 7. Quando vero congregabitis coetum, clangetis, sed absque jubilatione.

[7] quando autem congregandus est populus simplex tubarum clangor erit et non concise ululabunt

Con-grgo Congrego Academia congregation. where plato taught, scholars are called Academici, and his doctrine
Philosophia Academica.. The philosophy of the Acadamy,A. For The philosophy of the Academy:
Academia congregation. where plato taught, scholars are called Academici,
and his doctrine. Distinction from Stoica, Cynica

That which was permitted as a "church bell" :



Simplex I. In gen., simple, plain, uncompounded, unmixed,

That which was OUTLAWED.

Tuba Apart from military purposes, it was used on various occasions, as at religious festivals, games, funerals,
........b. Sonorous, elevated epic poetry,
........c. A lofty style of speaking,
........II. Trop.: tuba belli civilis, i. e. exciter, author, instigato


THE SYNAGOGUE RESTRICTED WITHIN THE PEOPLE'S PRECINCTS NEVER CHANGED:

ONLY for the national sacrificial system and going to war were instruments used. The BOOK of Psalms contains only 50 mizmors suitable for use and none of them include instruments. The other Psalms are warrior's panic Psalms and never used in the synagogue:

The book of Psalms contain new doctrine after the Law of Moses. And after the writing of Moses, it is the second book of doctrine... (David) first gave to the Hebrews a new style of psalmody, why which he abrogates the ordinances established by Moses with respect to sacrifices, and introduces the new hymn and a new style of jubilant praise in the worship of God; and throughout his whole ministry he teaches very many othe things that went beyond the law of Moses." (Fragment of Commentary by Hippolytus, bishop of Rome, Ante-Nicene, V, p. 170)

You say, "We want to be like the nations, like the peoples of the world, who serve wood and stone." But what you have in mind will never happen. Eze.20:32

"The quotation from Acts refers to David early in life, before he had fallen into those great sins which cast such a shadow upon his administration...This commendation is not absolute, but describes the character of David in comparison with that of Saul...It merely indicates a man whom God will approve, in distinction from Saul, who was rejected" (Haley's Bible Handbook, p. 222).


When people are compared to David it is during his first ways and not his last ways:

........And the Lord was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim; 2Chr.17:3

I repeat that there are TWO THREADS in the Old Testament (and in everything): First the EVIL THREAD was a secular monarchy which God warned and Nehemiah claimed that they were robbers and parasites. ALL of the deliberate sowing of musical discord are proof texted from the EVIL THREAD
Quote
Share