Well, I'm learning the basics of the Toolset (NWN).

Well, I'm learning the basics of the Toolset (NWN).

Joined: November 16th, 2001, 10:19 am

June 24th, 2002, 5:46 am #1

I've learned how to build a basic campaign.

Tonight, I went through and created a whole batch of items. They are "basic" items, in Diablo II terms. Everything comes in 3 flavors: Iron, Platinum, and Adamantium. The higher the metal, the better it is.

For example:
An Iron Short Sword has the same stats as a Short Sword in NWN. A Platinum Short Sword, while still being a base, non-magical item, has a bonus +1 damage and weighs 20% less. An Adamantium Short Sword has +2 damage and weighs 40% less. Iron Full Plate is just your average Full Plate, but Adamantium Full Plate weighs 40% less and has a bonus +2 AC.

Magical / "Unique" items based off these new "base" items would be powerful indeed.

It's really nothing special. I was simply bored, and wanted to have some fun. But, it saves anyone else the trouble of doing it, and it helped me learn about item creation / customization, to go along with building a dungeon, or a town, or a city (all of which I have built). It takes quite a bit of work to make a campaign. I haven't done ANY scripting yet, solely building, so NPCs and the like have no conversations or anything. And, I'm just toying, trying to learn. Still, it's fun. :-D

This Toolset really is quite powerful. It will be very fun to see what can really be built with it, once on learns all the necessary things (like the scripting language and whatnot). Even with the most basic knowledge (like I had), it IS possible to create a working campaign, complete with NPCs. I'm sure that, once more people get this game, we will start seeing some impressive campaigns.

I know that I intend to try and make my own, if only for my own personal amusement in creating it. I don't know what I intend to do, nor how big. Right now, I'm just toying, trying to learn. That's probably all it will amount to: a learning project. But, we shall see.

I'm off for now.

Roland The Gunslinger
The Diablo Strategy Compendium
http://www.diablosc.com/
The Diablo Strategy Compendium Forums
http://www.diablosc.com/cgi-bin/dcboard/dcforum.cgi
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Ozymandous
Ozymandous

June 24th, 2002, 2:03 pm #2

Trying to "uber" D&D to fit into the over "candyized" D2 mold? lol!

There's a reason magical items work as they do in D&D, so the game isn't unbalanced, you know, the problem that D2 suffered for in droves??

In AD&D (second edition I suppose it could be called) magical stuff typically weighed less than it's counterparts, this isn' the case anymore (surprised me) unless there is some special magical quality that does this as a property.

By the way, why Adamantium as the third level of "power" for items? Mithral(sp?) would seem to be a much better choice since it is lighter and stronger than steel or iron in the D&D universe. Adamantium was used in the first chapter of the game because it is used in the creation of magical items in some cases but you'd rarely find enough to make a whole suit of full plate for example, at least in my experience.

Do you plan to make your items into some campaign or module? If so let me know so I can stay well away from such a broken and unbalanced module, I had more than enough of the "candy" while I played D2. I am sure that plenty of the D2 "RPG" crowd would love your ideas however.
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Charis
Charis

June 24th, 2002, 3:18 pm #3

You would think he was talking about making the floor of town littered with Vorpal Blades or +5 Holy Avengers by your comments... easy now :P

I don't care about having gobs of extra +dmg or uber items, but I sure would like magical armor to be a little less encumbering! Tedium, unnecessary painful tedium it is, when you find an extra set of banded mail to sell and want to walk a while before heading to town.

My encouragement to Roland and others taking their first steps learning the toolset. It'll take quite a while to be proficient, much less masterful, so keep at it and have fun in the process!!

Charis
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Lissa
Lissa

June 24th, 2002, 3:32 pm #4

Trying to "uber" D&D to fit into the over "candyized" D2 mold? lol!

There's a reason magical items work as they do in D&D, so the game isn't unbalanced, you know, the problem that D2 suffered for in droves??

In AD&D (second edition I suppose it could be called) magical stuff typically weighed less than it's counterparts, this isn' the case anymore (surprised me) unless there is some special magical quality that does this as a property.

By the way, why Adamantium as the third level of "power" for items? Mithral(sp?) would seem to be a much better choice since it is lighter and stronger than steel or iron in the D&D universe. Adamantium was used in the first chapter of the game because it is used in the creation of magical items in some cases but you'd rarely find enough to make a whole suit of full plate for example, at least in my experience.

Do you plan to make your items into some campaign or module? If so let me know so I can stay well away from such a broken and unbalanced module, I had more than enough of the "candy" while I played D2. I am sure that plenty of the D2 "RPG" crowd would love your ideas however.
In 3rd Edition, Platnium and Mithril are synonomous. In previous additions of AD&D, Mithril was mostly Platnium with a little Silver and Iron thrown in. Also, they dropped the "meteoric" from the front of iron. Why did they do this? Got me.
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KingOfPain
KingOfPain

June 24th, 2002, 3:42 pm #5

Trying to "uber" D&D to fit into the over "candyized" D2 mold? lol!

There's a reason magical items work as they do in D&D, so the game isn't unbalanced, you know, the problem that D2 suffered for in droves??

In AD&D (second edition I suppose it could be called) magical stuff typically weighed less than it's counterparts, this isn' the case anymore (surprised me) unless there is some special magical quality that does this as a property.

By the way, why Adamantium as the third level of "power" for items? Mithral(sp?) would seem to be a much better choice since it is lighter and stronger than steel or iron in the D&D universe. Adamantium was used in the first chapter of the game because it is used in the creation of magical items in some cases but you'd rarely find enough to make a whole suit of full plate for example, at least in my experience.

Do you plan to make your items into some campaign or module? If so let me know so I can stay well away from such a broken and unbalanced module, I had more than enough of the "candy" while I played D2. I am sure that plenty of the D2 "RPG" crowd would love your ideas however.
Btw, you should go there and have some fun with this thread.
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 3&forum=48

There are comments ranging from
"Why not just play Diablo?" (from the imagination challenged) to
"you A/A types make me sick." (from the pettish name caller)

> Do you plan to make your items into some campaign or module? If so let me know so I can stay well away from such a broken and unbalanced module, I had more than enough of the "candy" while I played D2. I am sure that plenty of the D2 "RPG" crowd would love your ideas however

What am I missing here? You are implying any campaign or module based on a Diablo theme is automatically "broken and unbalanced". How did you come to that conclusion?

KoP




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Ozymandous
Ozymandous

June 24th, 2002, 4:17 pm #6

You would think he was talking about making the floor of town littered with Vorpal Blades or +5 Holy Avengers by your comments... easy now :P

I don't care about having gobs of extra +dmg or uber items, but I sure would like magical armor to be a little less encumbering! Tedium, unnecessary painful tedium it is, when you find an extra set of banded mail to sell and want to walk a while before heading to town.

My encouragement to Roland and others taking their first steps learning the toolset. It'll take quite a while to be proficient, much less masterful, so keep at it and have fun in the process!!

Charis
Form the tone of his post it did seem like he wanted to litter town with "uber candy-coated goodness", which is why I posted.

It's great that he's using the toolset but the last thing this game needs is people trying to force it to be like the "RPG" Diablo2!!

I agree that armor encumbrance is a PITA but that's realistic also, can you wear a full suit of platemail and carry two other full set's and walk much more than a crawl? Unless you're Mr. Olympus, the answer is no.

D&D is a trade-off. You want to be able to lug everything around then you do one of three things:
1) Increase your strength.
2) Save money and buy a bag of holding (surprised me that they were in there), which allows for 3 set's of armor without ANY extra weight.
3) Hope and pray you get mithral armor from the store (yeah right, as if that was really sold in stores in the old school version of D&D) or some sort of magical armor that weighs less.

Everyone is under the same rules in this game, which is good. It's great to encourage people but you also don't want to encourage bad habits either.
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Ozymandous
Ozymandous

June 24th, 2002, 5:55 pm #7

Btw, you should go there and have some fun with this thread.
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 3&forum=48

There are comments ranging from
"Why not just play Diablo?" (from the imagination challenged) to
"you A/A types make me sick." (from the pettish name caller)

> Do you plan to make your items into some campaign or module? If so let me know so I can stay well away from such a broken and unbalanced module, I had more than enough of the "candy" while I played D2. I am sure that plenty of the D2 "RPG" crowd would love your ideas however

What am I missing here? You are implying any campaign or module based on a Diablo theme is automatically "broken and unbalanced". How did you come to that conclusion?

KoP



What are you missing? The mind-set of "we want more, more, more, more, so we can then complain about broken elements and how "easy" the game is".

Did I say that any campaign based on Diablo would be bad? No, I said if Roland made a campaign or module using these over-blown, unbalanced items then it would be to out of balance and un-fun for me. My general impression is that since Roland appears to want to make NWN into some sort of D2 type game (based on the initial ideas proposed here) then everything he would do would be broken and in favor of "munchkin" type power gaming. Then again Roland might not over-do everything in the game but I have a suspicion that people would be fighting red dragons in every other house by the time they reached 5th level as it stands now.

Using D2 as a bare framework for a game wouldn't necessarily be bad if you stripped off all the broken and unbalanced things like uber weapons, broken skills, too weak or too strong monsters, melee chances to hit based on Mlvl vs. clvl, etc. Heh, all you'd have is a bare idea of any quest driven story if you did this anyway, which is the point of NWN, to make an engrossing story, not just an arcade game set in a fnatasy world. If you want the latter go play DS, it has that in spades.
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Nystul
Nystul

June 24th, 2002, 8:17 pm #8

Form the tone of his post it did seem like he wanted to litter town with "uber candy-coated goodness", which is why I posted.

It's great that he's using the toolset but the last thing this game needs is people trying to force it to be like the "RPG" Diablo2!!

I agree that armor encumbrance is a PITA but that's realistic also, can you wear a full suit of platemail and carry two other full set's and walk much more than a crawl? Unless you're Mr. Olympus, the answer is no.

D&D is a trade-off. You want to be able to lug everything around then you do one of three things:
1) Increase your strength.
2) Save money and buy a bag of holding (surprised me that they were in there), which allows for 3 set's of armor without ANY extra weight.
3) Hope and pray you get mithral armor from the store (yeah right, as if that was really sold in stores in the old school version of D&D) or some sort of magical armor that weighs less.

Everyone is under the same rules in this game, which is good. It's great to encourage people but you also don't want to encourage bad habits either.
"It's great that he's using the toolset but the last thing this game needs is people trying to force it to be like the "RPG" Diablo2!!"

Why?

Because real roleplayers would never stoop so low as to play a munchkinish dungeon crawl? That can't be true, as there are plenty of counterexamples around here.

Because the toolset is not designed to make an enjoyable munchkinish dungeon crawl? That remains to be seen, but given the flexibility of the engine I suspect that a fun crawl could be developed.

Because you aren't in the mood to play a munchkinish dungeon crawl? Fair enough, but that may not apply to all of us for the life of the game. There is nothing wrong with a level 5 character slaying dragons, as long as the challenge matches the rewards within the context of the campaign in which they both exist.

-Nystul
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KingOfPain
KingOfPain

June 25th, 2002, 7:04 am #9

What are you missing? The mind-set of "we want more, more, more, more, so we can then complain about broken elements and how "easy" the game is".

Did I say that any campaign based on Diablo would be bad? No, I said if Roland made a campaign or module using these over-blown, unbalanced items then it would be to out of balance and un-fun for me. My general impression is that since Roland appears to want to make NWN into some sort of D2 type game (based on the initial ideas proposed here) then everything he would do would be broken and in favor of "munchkin" type power gaming. Then again Roland might not over-do everything in the game but I have a suspicion that people would be fighting red dragons in every other house by the time they reached 5th level as it stands now.

Using D2 as a bare framework for a game wouldn't necessarily be bad if you stripped off all the broken and unbalanced things like uber weapons, broken skills, too weak or too strong monsters, melee chances to hit based on Mlvl vs. clvl, etc. Heh, all you'd have is a bare idea of any quest driven story if you did this anyway, which is the point of NWN, to make an engrossing story, not just an arcade game set in a fnatasy world. If you want the latter go play DS, it has that in spades.
> If you want the latter go play DS, it has that in spades

Sounds too similar to "Why not just play Diablo?" ;p

Anyway, I see nothing wrong with his exercise, not for the sake of an exercise in itself, and not until we know his game plan, then game balance thereof.

By the same token, I hope, and will probably see some campaigns that require matured characters (or the DM will just grant them certain lvls right off the bat). We don't always have to start life fighting lvl 1 monsters... but of course, the module should be balanced accordingly

Oh yeah, is DS pretty well a dead game amongst the folks here?

KoP


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Joined: November 16th, 2001, 10:19 am

June 25th, 2002, 7:26 am #10

You would think he was talking about making the floor of town littered with Vorpal Blades or +5 Holy Avengers by your comments... easy now :P

I don't care about having gobs of extra +dmg or uber items, but I sure would like magical armor to be a little less encumbering! Tedium, unnecessary painful tedium it is, when you find an extra set of banded mail to sell and want to walk a while before heading to town.

My encouragement to Roland and others taking their first steps learning the toolset. It'll take quite a while to be proficient, much less masterful, so keep at it and have fun in the process!!

Charis
Really I'm just tinkering. I am all for the balance in D&D. I think, personally, that NWN boasts more balance than any other D&D-based PC game I have ever played.

I am just learning. Tinkering. Fooling around. That's about it. I may make a campaign module, in time. I may not. And besides, this equipment is by no means "Godly". Do you know how expensive it is to own it? And it has level requirements. By the time you've saved enough gold to afford the item, you've found / bought something even better. :-P

And, again, I have to say this: I AM JUST TINKERING. I am having FUN. Christ, is that so wrong? I find it sadly depressing how ignorant and rude you are being. Perhaps it's just me, but that's my impression. I would have expect better. I thought this place was an open, friendly environment. I hope I haven't been mistaken.

Roland The Gunslinger
The Diablo Strategy Compendium
http://www.diablosc.com/
The Diablo Strategy Compendium Forums
http://www.diablosc.com/cgi-bin/dcboard/dcforum.cgi
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