They have chosen...

They have chosen...

Charis
Charis

March 21st, 2003, 9:01 pm #1

I've been noting several Civ3 similiarities with the current conflict, and try to remember how 'off' Civ3 is from reality, the connections are not that close. But I just about fell out of my chair when Sec. Donald Rumsfield used the comment in his briefing today regarding S.H... "Well you know, he had a choice to make, and...

... he chose unwisely." :lol:

Other strange things that popped to mind...
"I wonder how Turkey would respond to a deity ROP(TM)?"
"Oh yea? You declare war on me?? I'll show you!! I'll... I'll... I'll pillage my own oil supply!!?"
"Can we rush a temple in Basra? We don't want a flip"
"Maybe that part about AI having a 'favorite' government strongly dislikes others in a 'shunned' government isn't far off?"

Note, don't take these as anything other than hypothetical musings on Civ 3 :P
Charis
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Joined: February 15th, 2003, 12:42 am

March 21st, 2003, 11:20 pm #2

I laughed out loud when he used that phrase. Unfortunately, I was at work at the time. Fortunately, my work environment is very tolerant of lightheartedness.

I used a Civ3 reference during a discussion with a co-worker yesterday. He noted that some analysts were saying Iraq's air force might be utilizing Cessna jets. We were joking about a "dogfight" between a Cessna and an F-15. I then told him about Civ3 and how, on a moderately routine basis, it was possible to see a tank fighting a backwards country's spearman or musketman.

Other observations:

- Civ3 got war "happiness" right -- the Dow's going nuts now that we're fighting and rolling along nicely.

- with his navy (or lack thereof) and lone harbor unavailable, Saddam can't keep hope alive by hopping on a ship (a la the AI's "sailing settler") before his last city falls.

- unlike in Civ3, it really IS possible to destroy a palace (or two, or three, . . .).

This could turn into a really fun, if wholly off-topic, thread!
Last edited by TheRealReagan on March 21st, 2003, 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sullla
Sullla

March 21st, 2003, 11:29 pm #3

I've been noting several Civ3 similiarities with the current conflict, and try to remember how 'off' Civ3 is from reality, the connections are not that close. But I just about fell out of my chair when Sec. Donald Rumsfield used the comment in his briefing today regarding S.H... "Well you know, he had a choice to make, and...

... he chose unwisely." :lol:

Other strange things that popped to mind...
"I wonder how Turkey would respond to a deity ROP(TM)?"
"Oh yea? You declare war on me?? I'll show you!! I'll... I'll... I'll pillage my own oil supply!!?"
"Can we rush a temple in Basra? We don't want a flip"
"Maybe that part about AI having a 'favorite' government strongly dislikes others in a 'shunned' government isn't far off?"

Note, don't take these as anything other than hypothetical musings on Civ 3 :P
Charis
"I wonder how Turkey would respond to a deity ROP(TM)?"

That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time, Charis. I get images of this going through my head:



Americans on the left, Brits on the right, and pretty please don't hurt us as you pass through.
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Sirian
Sirian

March 21st, 2003, 11:38 pm #4

I've been noting several Civ3 similiarities with the current conflict, and try to remember how 'off' Civ3 is from reality, the connections are not that close. But I just about fell out of my chair when Sec. Donald Rumsfield used the comment in his briefing today regarding S.H... "Well you know, he had a choice to make, and...

... he chose unwisely." :lol:

Other strange things that popped to mind...
"I wonder how Turkey would respond to a deity ROP(TM)?"
"Oh yea? You declare war on me?? I'll show you!! I'll... I'll... I'll pillage my own oil supply!!?"
"Can we rush a temple in Basra? We don't want a flip"
"Maybe that part about AI having a 'favorite' government strongly dislikes others in a 'shunned' government isn't far off?"

Note, don't take these as anything other than hypothetical musings on Civ 3 :P
Charis
I saw the Pentagon briefing today and noted the same thing. Chose unwisely? Definitely an American euphemism that will live in our culture for a long time to come.

I admit, that's not funny itself. But laid against the experience of RBD SG3 and succeeding events, I agree, once can't help but laugh. There's a lot of irony there.

In other news, I could not sleep last night. I was glued to my TV watching American tanks rolling through the desert, live, hour after hour. In one sense, it was about as exciting as looking out the window nonstop on a five hour road trip, watching tires spin on the pavement. Watching grass grow is more interesting, in itself. Yet... there was something compelling about it anyway: knowing that these are armed forces moving at a brisk pace across another nation's soil, toward what will be combat, unless the enemy capitulates. Each of those soldiers is a man, one of my fellow citizens, and each soldier on the other side is also a man. I hope that more rather than fewer will CHOOSE WISELY and not force the Coalition units to destroy them. That destruction now seems certain, and only a question of how high of a cost they will try to impose on us, how much cost they are willing to pay to impose those costs on us, and how many of them will go out in a blaze of glory to no useful end whatsoever.

The coalition seems intent on offering more and more "last chances". In the end, though, those who choose unwisely will be overcome, by whatever means are necessary. That's a grim thought, and I take it very seriously. I'm praying for enlightenment on the other side that will spare lives all around. I hope the message gets through that they are fighting not for their people, or their country, or their future, since the coalition is not coming to dominate them, but that if they fight, they fight only for a regime that cares nothing for them and is not worthy of defending. I hope, and I pray, for them all.


- Sirian
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Griselda
Griselda

March 22nd, 2003, 1:15 am #5

Let's hope they don't decide to bomb Baghdad from size 30 or so down to size 6 before the tanks get there!

It looks like the USA might already be in Stage 1 war weariness too! Portland has basically Shut Down! THe people are rioting because of the war. :lol:

Maybe they'll send some more luxes our way to keep us happy.

-Griselda
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Sirian
Sirian

March 22nd, 2003, 3:01 am #6

...or perhaps Bush will click the "I don't care, let them riot" button for a few turns.

That's what I would probably do. :P

- Sirian
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Charis
Charis

March 22nd, 2003, 3:07 am #7

Let's hope they don't decide to bomb Baghdad from size 30 or so down to size 6 before the tanks get there!

It looks like the USA might already be in Stage 1 war weariness too! Portland has basically Shut Down! THe people are rioting because of the war. :lol:

Maybe they'll send some more luxes our way to keep us happy.

-Griselda
Gris that is both a very funny but a very grim statement! Now that you put it that way, it gives one pause to think of what is 'really' going on in a size 30 to 6 bombing, and how routinely such events take place in civ. In some ways, that is a far more heinous crime than razing a size 2 city, but here it's just "solid strategy." It is unfortunate that late-day artillery in civ 3 is so useless and 'dumb', how you can't "knock out" city defenses without humongous population reduction. Civ3 cruise missiles also fail to have quite the impact a barrage of Tomahawk's do.
Maybe it's a good thing after all that Civ3 combat is so cartoonish and simplified.

Sirian's comments were excellent here. The parallel is when a leader like X-man, bent on his own destruction refuses to come to the table after an epoch of war where he's down to only his capital, you don't want to see his nation perish, but he won't come to the peace table...

Charis
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T-hawk
T-hawk

March 22nd, 2003, 4:31 am #8

We've got Smart Weapons and the Precision Bombard ability, and that use of aircraft in Civ actually does fairly well replicate what's going on in real life. Sid/Soren & Co just forgot to have cruise missiles and radar artillery able to execute a Precision Strike too.

Oh, and agreed on LOL at the Turkey Deity RoP
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Joined: May 22nd, 2002, 7:37 am

March 22nd, 2003, 3:36 pm #9

I saw the Pentagon briefing today and noted the same thing. Chose unwisely? Definitely an American euphemism that will live in our culture for a long time to come.

I admit, that's not funny itself. But laid against the experience of RBD SG3 and succeeding events, I agree, once can't help but laugh. There's a lot of irony there.

In other news, I could not sleep last night. I was glued to my TV watching American tanks rolling through the desert, live, hour after hour. In one sense, it was about as exciting as looking out the window nonstop on a five hour road trip, watching tires spin on the pavement. Watching grass grow is more interesting, in itself. Yet... there was something compelling about it anyway: knowing that these are armed forces moving at a brisk pace across another nation's soil, toward what will be combat, unless the enemy capitulates. Each of those soldiers is a man, one of my fellow citizens, and each soldier on the other side is also a man. I hope that more rather than fewer will CHOOSE WISELY and not force the Coalition units to destroy them. That destruction now seems certain, and only a question of how high of a cost they will try to impose on us, how much cost they are willing to pay to impose those costs on us, and how many of them will go out in a blaze of glory to no useful end whatsoever.

The coalition seems intent on offering more and more "last chances". In the end, though, those who choose unwisely will be overcome, by whatever means are necessary. That's a grim thought, and I take it very seriously. I'm praying for enlightenment on the other side that will spare lives all around. I hope the message gets through that they are fighting not for their people, or their country, or their future, since the coalition is not coming to dominate them, but that if they fight, they fight only for a regime that cares nothing for them and is not worthy of defending. I hope, and I pray, for them all.


- Sirian
Hi,

I didn't see the briefing - a pity, I'd loved to know how they translated "he chose unwisely" into German.

About being glued to the TV: The pictures and news from the war are strangely attractive, I felt the same way during the last two days. You perhaps know I was against this war, and I'm still not fully convinced it's really necessary, but now that it's begun...these few pictures and news bites that are presented here over and over again, tanks rolling, jet fighters taking off the carriers - it's hard to switch off, somehow. And all the propaganda about "precision bombing", "surgical strikes" and whatnot makes one forget very easily that men like you and me are out there, risking their lives or being so unfortunate to have their homes there. I wish them and their relatives all the best. I too hope that most Iraqi soldiers choose wisely, but I'm afraid of another civ3 phrase: "Until The Bitter End". I really hope that the analogy between this conflict and civ3 ends at that point, I really hope. Civ3 and similar abstract wargames make us forget sometimes what such concepts would mean in reality.

-Kylearan
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Joined: May 22nd, 2002, 7:37 am

March 22nd, 2003, 3:40 pm #10

Let's hope they don't decide to bomb Baghdad from size 30 or so down to size 6 before the tanks get there!

It looks like the USA might already be in Stage 1 war weariness too! Portland has basically Shut Down! THe people are rioting because of the war. :lol:

Maybe they'll send some more luxes our way to keep us happy.

-Griselda
Hi,

excuse the question, but what happens in Portland at the moment that it's "rioting"? I did a quick search on Google and some news sites but didn't find anything.

-Kylearan
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