NWN Introduction Post

NWN Introduction Post

Joined: November 16th, 2001, 10:19 am

June 21st, 2002, 2:38 am #1

Taken from: http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 7&forum=42

"1. NWN is not an MMORPG

2. Cheating doesn't matter, because the DM controls all aspects of the game and can remove any players at any time.


3. Levelling doesn't matter, because you can create a level 20 char in a few seconds. NWN is about the journey.


4. NWN is based on Dungeons and Dragons. In D&D terms, Level 20 is practically godlike. Do not complain about the low level cap. Also see point 1.


5. NWN is based on Dungeons and Dragons. In D&D you control one character. This is why you control one character in NWN. Do not complain about not having a whole party, NWN is not made that way.


6. NWN is all about choosing some friends whom you want to play with, and having a good time. It is not about r0xxing the n00bs, and it is not about exploiting bugs and hacking chars and getting phat l3wt. If this is your intention you're in the wrong place.


7. Bugs, lag, release delays, incompatibility issues, and high prices are not the fault of Bioware. They are doing their best to solve the things they can, in the meantime stop whining.


8. NWN has a large multiplayer element, however because the game is new there is almost zero custom content and player created modules and adventures. Please be patient and give us a chance to make them.


9. You can be sure that when the DM's begin choosing people to play in their campaigns and adventures, if you have been acting like a tard the past few days, they won't choose you.


10. If you don't like NWN because you have failed to comprehend the above points, please quit making posts about it. You just look very stupid. Thank you."

No, I did not write this, but it DOES raise some very good points. It helps give you a very small bit of insight into the game, or rather, what it is versus what it isn't.

I've started a Ranger / Druid. I've noticed some things. Druid pets kick ass. Ranger's dual-wielding for free (Light or no armor required; Medium or Heavy Armor negates free feats) kicks ass. Ranger's weapon proficiencies kick ass. Ranger weapon proficiencies + Ranger dual-wielding + Druid pets ROYALLY kicks ass. :-D

And no, the Druid weapon penalties DO NOT apply in Multi-classing a Ranger. So yes, I can, as a Ranger / Druid, (with Weapon Proficiency: Exotic) wield a dual-bladed sword. It's great fun using this weapon while fighting alongside my nice, cuddly Dire Wolf. He's so nice. :-D I like to pet him. It's fun. pets his Dire Wolf

Anyway... I've ALSO found that, while pathfinding AI STILL sucks, summoned animals (or at least Druid pets) have a bit better AI, AND they won't get you stuck, since they WILL move for you, and you can always just unsummon them. Also, the Druid pet allows me to forgo the need for a merc ('twould be helpful, but for now, I'd rather go it alone), saving me a cool 200 gp right off the bat.

All in all, if you like BG, BG2, Diablo, or Diablo II, you'll like NWN. Once you get used to the pathfinding (veterans of D2 will have no problem), the game is really enjoyable. I DO recommend getting it (now that I've had the chance to play a bit, and actually have a character I LIKE. No, he is not Godly. I know this because this is the second incarnation of my Ranger / Druid, since the first one died, and I didn't want to lose my exp and gold to respawning, and I forgot to save. But he IS fun. VERY fun. And I am REALLY looking forward to taking this guy to higher levels.

The point and scale-based attribute system is a nice touch, IMO, over the dice-roll system of classic D&D. It requires you to really think about where you want your points. Also, the point-based Skill system, along with the Feat system, both help to add flavor and customizability to the game. It's VERY daunting at first (which is why I never play D&D: too damn daunting), but once you have a VERY basic concept in your head about what you want, it's a piece of cake (my Ranger / Druid: melee, dual-wield, low-ac build; needs dodging abilities and combat feats).

I must say, this game SHOULD be far better with some QUALITY MPing. I can see some SERIOUS gaming goodness in the future involving RBD. :-D Take my word for it, this game will be RBD's jewel.

I still have my gripes with the game (pathfinding, for one), but I can't deny that this game is good. It's what I wanted Arcanum to be (or maybe I just never got into Arcanum enough). The ability to build your character almost entirely to what you want it to be is a very big bonus, in many small ways, and many large ways. Gameplay and graphics are smooth and good (better than WC3, IMO). The system is a little complex at first, but once you get it down, it's nice. Players of Black & White will notice some similarities. You MUST get used to using the camera (preferably with the arrow keys), or you're in for alot of problems. The views are nice, but not being able to see the horizon can be a pain sometimes, and objects (walls, buildings, etc.) sometimes get in the way, although for the most part it won't be a problem, as they did good with visual clipping.

All in all, I'm impressed. It strikes me as a very good game, and given the tools included with it, I think it will be around for a VERY long time, much like Diablo.

These are just my first impressions, but, barring some major thing, I have a pretty good feeling about this game. Not great, at least not YET, but good, nonetheless.

My suggestion? Try it before you buy it, or wait for more comments, if you're unsure. Otherwise, don't be afraid to lay down the $55 for it. IMO, it's worth it.

Roland The Gunslinger
The Diablo Strategy Compendium
http://www.diablosc.com/
The Diablo Strategy Compendium Forums
http://www.diablosc.com/cgi-bin/dcboard/dcforum.cgi
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Anonymous
Anonymous

June 21st, 2002, 2:25 pm #2

I've started a Ranger / Druid. I've noticed some things. Druid pets kick ass. Ranger's dual-wielding for free (Light or no armor required; Medium or Heavy Armor negates free feats) kicks ass. Ranger's weapon proficiencies kick ass. Ranger weapon proficiencies + Ranger dual-wielding + Druid pets ROYALLY kicks ass. :-D

And no, the Druid weapon penalties DO NOT apply in Multi-classing a Ranger. So yes, I can, as a Ranger / Druid, (with Weapon Proficiency: Exotic) wield a dual-bladed sword. It's great fun using this weapon while fighting alongside my nice, cuddly Dire Wolf. He's so nice. :-D I like to pet him. It's fun. pets his Dire Wolf


I still prefer my Elven Paladin. Even though I'm equipping her in character (no helm, no shield, medium armor (so chainmail instead of fullplate) and a rapier), she's doing well. The Dodge and Mobility feats are a tremendous help, and Weapon Finess is killer.

Strange thing, though: I think Paladins turn undead at their full level in NWN. I didn't actually use it until level 4, but then I was outright kill zombies (2hd, lvl 4 needed to kill). I should have been turning as a level 2 (and the zombies would have just run)...

Anyway... I've ALSO found that, while pathfinding AI STILL sucks, summoned animals (or at least Druid pets) have a bit better AI, AND they won't get you stuck, since they WILL move for you, and you can always just unsummon them. Also, the Druid pet allows me to forgo the need for a merc ('twould be helpful, but for now, I'd rather go it alone), saving me a cool 200 gp right off the bat.

Pathfinding may be bad, but the AI is great. characters will actively try to use "5-foot steps" to flank you (as a side note, you can manually pull a 5-footer with the sidestep keys (Q and E by default) in combat). This works great with Tomi Undergallows, the Rogue henchman. He is ALWAYS getting sneak attacks in, woot...

The point and scale-based attribute system is a nice touch, IMO, over the dice-roll system of classic D&D. It requires you to really think about where you want your points. Also, the point-based Skill system, along with the Feat system, both help to add flavor and customizability to the game. It's VERY daunting at first (which is why I never play D&D: too damn daunting), but once you have a VERY basic concept in your head about what you want, it's a piece of cake (my Ranger / Druid: melee, dual-wield, low-ac build; needs dodging abilities and combat feats).

Agreed. For those familiar with 3E D&D, NWN uses the Standard Point Buy with 30 initial points. Initially I thought this might be too much (I'm a big fan of 25pt buy), but it's been about right for the challenges I've been through.

(For the record, my Paladin is a light melee skirmisher. She carries a longbow, but I don't think I've used it in the last 2 levels)

- WL
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Charis
Charis

June 21st, 2002, 3:00 pm #3

Are there any websites, faq's, tools, to help one design a character build, or with tips on how to assign those points. I'm an old-school guy who rolled his 3d6 several times, our DM let us take something like best of two, and off we went. Knowing how important skill decisions are in other games (including D2 and D2X), I'm hoping to avoid coming
up with a hideous build.

One other initial question. Level advancements are so non-linear with a lvl 20 far more powerful than two individual lvl 10's, is multiclassing a strongly "variant" idea where you make a definite sacrifice in power for RPG or flexibility purposes. (Witness the power of the dip-points-in-everything D2 character, ew!)

Not sure which builds to try first, but these come to mind as ones I'll strongly consider: Ranger/Druid, Paladin or Paladin-multi, Monk or Monk-multi, some kind of Elven wizard multi.

Charis
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KingOfPain
KingOfPain

June 21st, 2002, 5:07 pm #4

NwN seem to encourage variant play.
"Those who enjoy a challenge sometimes construct a flawed character...(and some examples)"

"Neverwinter Night has a very flexible system for character modification, so don't worry too much about the decisions you make early on. For example, you might create a gnome barbarian to prove to other gnome players that gnpme make the best warriors, but after a while, realize that you are spending more time glorifying him with tales and peoms than actually fighting. At that point you could take a level of bard, a class better suited to that style of play. He would still have his barbarian roots, but could freely advance as a bard thereafter"

Looks good from that description - if that philosophy is implemented/balanced into the game

KoP

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WarLocke
WarLocke

June 21st, 2002, 5:22 pm #5

Are there any websites, faq's, tools, to help one design a character build, or with tips on how to assign those points. I'm an old-school guy who rolled his 3d6 several times, our DM let us take something like best of two, and off we went. Knowing how important skill decisions are in other games (including D2 and D2X), I'm hoping to avoid coming
up with a hideous build.

One other initial question. Level advancements are so non-linear with a lvl 20 far more powerful than two individual lvl 10's, is multiclassing a strongly "variant" idea where you make a definite sacrifice in power for RPG or flexibility purposes. (Witness the power of the dip-points-in-everything D2 character, ew!)

Not sure which builds to try first, but these come to mind as ones I'll strongly consider: Ranger/Druid, Paladin or Paladin-multi, Monk or Monk-multi, some kind of Elven wizard multi.

Charis
Are there any websites, faq's, tools, to help one design a character build, or with tips on how to assign those points. I'm an old-school guy who rolled his 3d6 several times, our DM let us take something like best of two, and off we went. Knowing how important skill decisions are in other games (including D2 and D2X), I'm hoping to avoid coming
up with a hideous build.


Well, for general D&D info you could try <A HREF=http://www.d20reviews.com">EN World</A>. Eric Noah's site has always been a D&D mecca, IMO.

As for the point buy system, it works like this:

1) All six stats start with a base score of 8.
2) You are given 30 points which you can add to your stats. However, it's not always a 1-to-1 trade.
2a) For every point you increase a stat (up to 14), it takes one of your 30 points. Example: to "buy" a Strength of 9 will cost 1 point, or a Wisdom of 11 will cost 3 points.
2b) to "buy" a 15-16 stat, it "costs" 2 points for each attribute point. Example: Dexterity 16 would cost 10 points (6 points to get to 14, 4 more to get to 16).
2c) 17-18 stats work similar, except they cost 3 points for every stat increase. So an 18 stat costs 16 points, more than half your total.

You also, at every fourth level (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) get a stat raise point. You can apply this to any stat. You can apply more than one to the same stat, and none of that point-buy nonsense applies to this point. 1 point buys 1 point, regardless of whether you're going from 11 to 12 or 18 to 19 (and yes, you can raise attributes above racial maximums with these improvement points).

One other initial question. Level advancements are so non-linear with a lvl 20 far more powerful than two individual lvl 10's, is multiclassing a strongly "variant" idea where you make a definite sacrifice in power for RPG or flexibility purposes. (Witness the power of the dip-points-in-everything D2 character, ew!)

Well, that really depends. Most of the classes are fairly front loaded (as in, you gain access to most or all of their special abilities at a relatively low level). So yes, in that sense adding a single level of a certain class (Rogues, Rangers and Monks come to mind) can give you a ton of new abilities.

However, while some character stats are cumulative (such as Base Attack Bonus (old THACO)), spell-casting levels are not. A 5/5 Wizard/Sorceror does NOT cast as a level 10. He casts as a level 5. This effects any facet of a spell that is level based (5d6 dmg fireballs, for instance). Thus, if you are playing a Fighter/Wizard (for instance), you would probably end up something like 3/7 rather than 5/5. This is because added fighter-type levels add incrementally, but spellcasting levels give great jumps in effectiveness (from new spell levels available).

Not sure which builds to try first, but these come to mind as ones I'll strongly consider: Ranger/Druid, Paladin or Paladin-multi, Monk or Monk-multi, some kind of Elven wizard multi.

Some problems:
1) In P&P D&D 3E, a Paladin that takes a level in another class can never again raise his Paladin level. I don't know if this is implemented in NWN. In either case, if a Paladin's alignment changes from LG, he cannot level until it is again LG.
2) A non-Neutral Monk cannot level.

- WL
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Lissa
Lissa

June 21st, 2002, 6:04 pm #6

Are there any websites, faq's, tools, to help one design a character build, or with tips on how to assign those points. I'm an old-school guy who rolled his 3d6 several times, our DM let us take something like best of two, and off we went. Knowing how important skill decisions are in other games (including D2 and D2X), I'm hoping to avoid coming
up with a hideous build.

One other initial question. Level advancements are so non-linear with a lvl 20 far more powerful than two individual lvl 10's, is multiclassing a strongly "variant" idea where you make a definite sacrifice in power for RPG or flexibility purposes. (Witness the power of the dip-points-in-everything D2 character, ew!)

Not sure which builds to try first, but these come to mind as ones I'll strongly consider: Ranger/Druid, Paladin or Paladin-multi, Monk or Monk-multi, some kind of Elven wizard multi.

Charis
Here's some info that might help you build a character.



When creating a character in 3rd Ed, you need to plan out the life of the character appropriately. Efficiency is the key. This will really bring the possibility of variance in characters into play.



When determining your stats, always try to get to an even number if you can since the game rounds to your detriment. The only time you want to leave an attribute as a odd number is if you plan to increase it later.



Dwarves have a racial bonus to being good Fighters, and as such, this there special class (they can go up in this class as much as they want and any side classes are uneffected).

Elves have a racial bonus to being good Wizards.

Gnomes have a racial bonus to being good Illusionists.

Half Orcs have a racial bonus to being good Barbarians.

Halflins have a racial bonus to being good Rogues.

Humans and Half-Elves are more jack-of-all-trades and their highest level class is considered their special class.



Barbarians and Fighters primary attributes is Str and Con (Some would argue Dex as well, but it would depend on the way the character fights, a Fighter that is specialized as an Archer would want Dex over Str and Con).

Bards primary attributes is Dex and Cha.

Clerics and Druids primary attributes is Wis and Cha.

Monks primary attributes is Dex and Wis.

Paladins primary attributes is Str, Wis, and Cha.

Rangers primary attributes is Str, Dex, and Wis.

Rogues primary attributes is Dex

Sorcerers primary attribute is Cha.

Wizards primary attribute is Int.



There are a lot of feats that are very useful, but, there are a few to avoid as they will be quickly non-useful after the first couple levels. Toughness is a feat to ignore for the most part. While and extra 3 hps is nice at 1st level, it's pretty useless later on. Alertness is also a pretty useless feat as well considering in a few levels you can increase a skill just as effectively. In essense, when looking at a feat, look to see if it can be overcome either by skill increase or just level increase. If it can, it's not worth taking. Also, never, ever, take proficiency in Medium Armor, Heavy Armoy, or Military weapons when you can grab one level in Fighter and get those feats for free.

A word on feats for specific styles of fighting, Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse (if using Rapier or small weapons like Daggers), and a few others are very useful to a hand to hand fighter. If you plan to range attack with a Bow, pick up Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot, these two feats make an Archer very, very useful. Dodge and Mobility are also very handy for someone that plans to move around a lot, you don't move that much, you won't need these feats as much.



On choosing your levels, it is not a good idea to split amongst a large number of classes if you are a spell caster. Grabbing 1 level of a couple classes won't hurt you as a spell caster, but grabbing multiple levels beyond first can seriously deteriment your spell casting ability. On the other hand, grabbing lots of different classes as a non-spellcaster or low spellcasting ability will actually make you quite a bit more powerful. So, if you want pure spellcaster, stick with it, but if you want to be a Fighter/Rogue/etc with low spell casting ability, go hog wild.


Hope that helps...
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Carbon
Carbon

June 21st, 2002, 6:08 pm #7

Are there any websites, faq's, tools, to help one design a character build, or with tips on how to assign those points. I'm an old-school guy who rolled his 3d6 several times, our DM let us take something like best of two, and off we went. Knowing how important skill decisions are in other games (including D2 and D2X), I'm hoping to avoid coming
up with a hideous build.


Well, for general D&D info you could try <A HREF=http://www.d20reviews.com">EN World</A>. Eric Noah's site has always been a D&D mecca, IMO.

As for the point buy system, it works like this:

1) All six stats start with a base score of 8.
2) You are given 30 points which you can add to your stats. However, it's not always a 1-to-1 trade.
2a) For every point you increase a stat (up to 14), it takes one of your 30 points. Example: to "buy" a Strength of 9 will cost 1 point, or a Wisdom of 11 will cost 3 points.
2b) to "buy" a 15-16 stat, it "costs" 2 points for each attribute point. Example: Dexterity 16 would cost 10 points (6 points to get to 14, 4 more to get to 16).
2c) 17-18 stats work similar, except they cost 3 points for every stat increase. So an 18 stat costs 16 points, more than half your total.

You also, at every fourth level (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) get a stat raise point. You can apply this to any stat. You can apply more than one to the same stat, and none of that point-buy nonsense applies to this point. 1 point buys 1 point, regardless of whether you're going from 11 to 12 or 18 to 19 (and yes, you can raise attributes above racial maximums with these improvement points).

One other initial question. Level advancements are so non-linear with a lvl 20 far more powerful than two individual lvl 10's, is multiclassing a strongly "variant" idea where you make a definite sacrifice in power for RPG or flexibility purposes. (Witness the power of the dip-points-in-everything D2 character, ew!)

Well, that really depends. Most of the classes are fairly front loaded (as in, you gain access to most or all of their special abilities at a relatively low level). So yes, in that sense adding a single level of a certain class (Rogues, Rangers and Monks come to mind) can give you a ton of new abilities.

However, while some character stats are cumulative (such as Base Attack Bonus (old THACO)), spell-casting levels are not. A 5/5 Wizard/Sorceror does NOT cast as a level 10. He casts as a level 5. This effects any facet of a spell that is level based (5d6 dmg fireballs, for instance). Thus, if you are playing a Fighter/Wizard (for instance), you would probably end up something like 3/7 rather than 5/5. This is because added fighter-type levels add incrementally, but spellcasting levels give great jumps in effectiveness (from new spell levels available).

Not sure which builds to try first, but these come to mind as ones I'll strongly consider: Ranger/Druid, Paladin or Paladin-multi, Monk or Monk-multi, some kind of Elven wizard multi.

Some problems:
1) In P&P D&D 3E, a Paladin that takes a level in another class can never again raise his Paladin level. I don't know if this is implemented in NWN. In either case, if a Paladin's alignment changes from LG, he cannot level until it is again LG.
2) A non-Neutral Monk cannot level.

- WL
The monk and paladin multiclassing restrictions are not implemented. you can take levels of either of them at any time, provided you meet the alignment requirements. Paladins must be Lawful Good, Monks must be any lawful alignment (BTW, have you seen the portrait for that dwarven monk henchman? It scares me.)

One thing that isn't really a restriction, but something you need to keep in mind when multiclassing is the experience penalties involved in not having your levels close to each other. Normally, if any of a multiclassed character's levels are more than one apart (e.g. having a 6 in one class and a 4 in another), then that character receives a 20% reduction in experience until they are close to even again.

However, all races have at least one class (a "favored class") that doesn't count when calculating this penalty. Here's what they are off the top of my head:

Elves: Wizard
Halflings: Rogue
Dwarves: Fighter
Half-Orc: Barbarian
Gnomes: Wizard (? Not sure)

Half-Elf: Any
Human: Any

Thus, a Dwarven Fighter 10/Rogue 5 would not be penalized, even though the difference between his fighter level and his rogue level are 5 apart, but a Dwarven Bard 10/Rogue 5 (I shudder to think of such a thing) would have a 20% experience penalty. A halfling, however, could do either of the above without being penalized since his Rogue levels wouldn't count.

For Half-elves and humans, their favored class of "any" means the highest class at any given point is not counted to see if a penalty occurs or not, so you can have wackier multiclass combos without being penalized. For example, a human Druid 13/Sorceror 3/Monk 2 isn't penalized, since his highest class doesn't count, but if he took his next level as a Sorceror, he'd be subject to a 20% penalty since his Sorceror and Monk levels would be 2 apart.
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T-Dawg
T-Dawg

June 21st, 2002, 7:43 pm #8

Here's some info that might help you build a character.



When creating a character in 3rd Ed, you need to plan out the life of the character appropriately. Efficiency is the key. This will really bring the possibility of variance in characters into play.



When determining your stats, always try to get to an even number if you can since the game rounds to your detriment. The only time you want to leave an attribute as a odd number is if you plan to increase it later.



Dwarves have a racial bonus to being good Fighters, and as such, this there special class (they can go up in this class as much as they want and any side classes are uneffected).

Elves have a racial bonus to being good Wizards.

Gnomes have a racial bonus to being good Illusionists.

Half Orcs have a racial bonus to being good Barbarians.

Halflins have a racial bonus to being good Rogues.

Humans and Half-Elves are more jack-of-all-trades and their highest level class is considered their special class.



Barbarians and Fighters primary attributes is Str and Con (Some would argue Dex as well, but it would depend on the way the character fights, a Fighter that is specialized as an Archer would want Dex over Str and Con).

Bards primary attributes is Dex and Cha.

Clerics and Druids primary attributes is Wis and Cha.

Monks primary attributes is Dex and Wis.

Paladins primary attributes is Str, Wis, and Cha.

Rangers primary attributes is Str, Dex, and Wis.

Rogues primary attributes is Dex

Sorcerers primary attribute is Cha.

Wizards primary attribute is Int.



There are a lot of feats that are very useful, but, there are a few to avoid as they will be quickly non-useful after the first couple levels. Toughness is a feat to ignore for the most part. While and extra 3 hps is nice at 1st level, it's pretty useless later on. Alertness is also a pretty useless feat as well considering in a few levels you can increase a skill just as effectively. In essense, when looking at a feat, look to see if it can be overcome either by skill increase or just level increase. If it can, it's not worth taking. Also, never, ever, take proficiency in Medium Armor, Heavy Armoy, or Military weapons when you can grab one level in Fighter and get those feats for free.

A word on feats for specific styles of fighting, Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse (if using Rapier or small weapons like Daggers), and a few others are very useful to a hand to hand fighter. If you plan to range attack with a Bow, pick up Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot, these two feats make an Archer very, very useful. Dodge and Mobility are also very handy for someone that plans to move around a lot, you don't move that much, you won't need these feats as much.



On choosing your levels, it is not a good idea to split amongst a large number of classes if you are a spell caster. Grabbing 1 level of a couple classes won't hurt you as a spell caster, but grabbing multiple levels beyond first can seriously deteriment your spell casting ability. On the other hand, grabbing lots of different classes as a non-spellcaster or low spellcasting ability will actually make you quite a bit more powerful. So, if you want pure spellcaster, stick with it, but if you want to be a Fighter/Rogue/etc with low spell casting ability, go hog wild.


Hope that helps...
yes, as funny as it may seem im playing AD&D Ed one. Much simpiler for our DM, as all the different spells are too taxing on him. Although i think thats just a cheap lie ;) because he is too stubborn to change.

D&D in first ed is quite fun because our DM is not to the book at all, he has made many fantasy never-in-your-life have thought of it monsters... like a pepsisauras when you get really high levels. Its basically a 2 liter pepsi bottle compared to standard miniture size. Corrosive breath weapon, and a roll over you attack. Dangerous Grrr. lol.

From T-Dawg
P.S. anyone noticed when i start posting here i post alot and then dissapear?
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Joined: November 16th, 2001, 10:19 am

June 21st, 2002, 9:32 pm #9

Are there any websites, faq's, tools, to help one design a character build, or with tips on how to assign those points. I'm an old-school guy who rolled his 3d6 several times, our DM let us take something like best of two, and off we went. Knowing how important skill decisions are in other games (including D2 and D2X), I'm hoping to avoid coming
up with a hideous build.

One other initial question. Level advancements are so non-linear with a lvl 20 far more powerful than two individual lvl 10's, is multiclassing a strongly "variant" idea where you make a definite sacrifice in power for RPG or flexibility purposes. (Witness the power of the dip-points-in-everything D2 character, ew!)

Not sure which builds to try first, but these come to mind as ones I'll strongly consider: Ranger/Druid, Paladin or Paladin-multi, Monk or Monk-multi, some kind of Elven wizard multi.

Charis
<quote>Charis (no login)
Posted Jun 21, 2002 8:00 AM

Are there any websites, faq's, tools, to help one design a character build, or with tips on how to assign those points. I'm an old-school guy who rolled his 3d6 several times, our DM let us take something like best of two, and off we went. Knowing how important skill decisions are in other games (including D2 and D2X), I'm hoping to avoid coming
up with a hideous build.
<quote>

If you know ANY D&D rules, you can't make a bad build. Take it from me. I've never been good at D&D because it was just too damn daunting. BUT... I'm on my second character (playing two at a time) and I am kicking ass. I still have to be careful, but thus far, no real problems, save for mages, but again, so long as I am careful, I'm ok. If you know what the stats do, and you know what TYPE of character you want (going WELL beyond race and class here, as there are SO MANY ways to play each race / class combo), it's a piece of cake.

<quote>
One other initial question. Level advancements are so non-linear with a lvl 20 far more powerful than two individual lvl 10's, is multiclassing a strongly "variant" idea where you make a definite sacrifice in power for RPG or flexibility purposes. (Witness the power of the dip-points-in-everything D2 character, ew!)
<quote>

Don't think this will be a problem. Unless you're a wizard, I don't think multiclassing will hurt you. Fighters gain so many extra feats in the first few levels (level 1, 2, 4, 6, etc.) that with just a few levels in it, you can turn ANYONE into a decent fighter. Rangers with their free Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting (with light or no armor) is another nice option. If you want magic, a Druid or Cleric makes for a good class, AFAIK. I don't know much about wizards, as I never play them, so you'd have to find out about them on your own, but I would assume that anyone who's played D&D more than I have would be able to make a character that wouldn't get screwed in the end, provided you don't make it a "variant" character. I don't think multiclassing in and of itself makes your character "variant" at all. I think it enhances it, if anything.

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Not sure which builds to try first, but these come to mind as ones I'll strongly consider: Ranger/Druid, Paladin or Paladin-multi, Monk or Monk-multi, some kind of Elven wizard multi.

Charis
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Don't focus on a build until you have an idea on WHAT you want to play. I have two Ranger / Druids right now. One's 1R / 3D, and he's dual-wielding melee. He specializes in combat feats like Dodge and Mobility, and pumps his Parry skill plenty. He's been doing pretty good. I have to be careful with him, or I'll die if I get swarmed (when you run, they get attacks of oppurtunity against you, and due to the rotten pathfinding, sometimes you run AT them instead of away, or just plain stop in your tracks). But, my Dire Wolf companion aids me quite well. He's a fierce combatant, though with less hitpoints than the Brown Bear. Still, I like him thusfar. I don't think I'll swap him (you can change at any levelup). He's been put on hold for now in favor of the below character (who has gotten a bit farther in the game). If you're gonna go this route, think LAW from D1. Since you'll need to wear no heavier than Light armor (unless you want to spend your feats on getting Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting at level 1, and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at level 9, all of which the Ranger gets for free, regardless of whether he meets the requirements), you'll be relying on agility feats (Dodge, Mobility) and skills (Parry). You may think about Hide / Move Silently, although I chose against it.

My other is 1R / 4D, and he's a pure spell-caster. I chose Ranger to gain the use of bows, so yes, he DOES attack, but from a range. Since he's only level 4 Druid, he has no attack spells yet, but his animal companion (a brown bear, for his high attack and high life; think Amazon's Valkyrie here), combined with a Summon Creature I / II (Dire Badger / Dire Boar) help out immensely. Only thing is, you can only have one "summoned" creature, so a level II replaces a level I, or a level I replaces a level II. Your animal companion, however, stays, even if you "summon" a creature. So, you can have a henchman and 2 pets (one summoned, one companion). If you're going to go this route, think Archer Mini-Mage from D1. Stay away from the enemy, let your pets / henchman take the beating, and plunk away with arrows, or drop a few spells on them. I've decided to place my starting points from Ranger into Hide / Move silently, but unless I level up as a Ranger again, I'll have to spend twice as many points to get one rank higher, so I've been saving my points. Not sure if I even want to raise them, as I don't know if I'll ever need them (hence saving them). It's not like I have many other skills, anyway. Animal Empathy, Concentration, Spellcasting all get pumped, and I save the rest.

One thing to consider: As a Ranger or Druid, you gain the spells Neutralize Poison and Remove Disease. Because of this, I'd advise AGAINST pumping the Heal skill. You can always add to it later in the game (especially with the points you'll save), but I don't think it will be necessary. If you're going Melee, Parry is a useful skill, even if you don't actively select it, as it allows you to block attacks with your weapon. Worthless if you're soloing, but with an animal or two, and a henchman, you can parry while they come to your aid, and if you suceed by 10+ on your DC check, you get a nice counterattack. If you're going ranger, Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot are a must. I don't use Rapid Shot too often YET, because of the attack penalty, but when my attack boni get higher, I'm sure I will. Besides, I'll have spells to do my major damage anyway (one more level and I get Call Lightning! Woot! And Summon Animal III: Dire Wolf ).

Oh, and some notes on your other character choices:
Monk and Paladin paths are strict. Once you leave them (to multiclass in another class) you can never go back. So be forewarned. Other than that, I don't know too much about them, except that I want to try a Ranger / Monk, for dual-wielding purposes. Since a Monk uses no armor, as a level 1 Ranger he'd gain Ambi and Two-Weapon. Dual-wielding a pair of Kamas sounds pretty damn nice to me, especially since they count as an "unarmed" attack for purposes of the Monk skills. Or rather, the monk's skills often give bonus to "unarmed attack or with a Kama". The added damage would be nice, not to mention the extra attack. Plus, throw in Dodge, Mobilitity, and Parry, and you got a formidable fighter. Don't know TOO much about Monks, but they're supposed to be pretty good. Barbarians and Sorcerours, AFAIK, have seen no improvement since BG2, and thus will probably be a weaker class to try. But, I wouldn't discourage it.

I guess that's about it for now. If you want to know anything more, just e-mail me or post on the forum. I check here daily. I'll probably post a new post or two soon, after I level my Ranger / Druid a bit more and start to get some REAL spells. :-D Laters.

Roland The Gunslinger
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Joined: November 16th, 2001, 10:19 am

June 21st, 2002, 9:38 pm #10

The monk and paladin multiclassing restrictions are not implemented. you can take levels of either of them at any time, provided you meet the alignment requirements. Paladins must be Lawful Good, Monks must be any lawful alignment (BTW, have you seen the portrait for that dwarven monk henchman? It scares me.)

One thing that isn't really a restriction, but something you need to keep in mind when multiclassing is the experience penalties involved in not having your levels close to each other. Normally, if any of a multiclassed character's levels are more than one apart (e.g. having a 6 in one class and a 4 in another), then that character receives a 20% reduction in experience until they are close to even again.

However, all races have at least one class (a "favored class") that doesn't count when calculating this penalty. Here's what they are off the top of my head:

Elves: Wizard
Halflings: Rogue
Dwarves: Fighter
Half-Orc: Barbarian
Gnomes: Wizard (? Not sure)

Half-Elf: Any
Human: Any

Thus, a Dwarven Fighter 10/Rogue 5 would not be penalized, even though the difference between his fighter level and his rogue level are 5 apart, but a Dwarven Bard 10/Rogue 5 (I shudder to think of such a thing) would have a 20% experience penalty. A halfling, however, could do either of the above without being penalized since his Rogue levels wouldn't count.

For Half-elves and humans, their favored class of "any" means the highest class at any given point is not counted to see if a penalty occurs or not, so you can have wackier multiclass combos without being penalized. For example, a human Druid 13/Sorceror 3/Monk 2 isn't penalized, since his highest class doesn't count, but if he took his next level as a Sorceror, he'd be subject to a 20% penalty since his Sorceror and Monk levels would be 2 apart.
...but not quite accurate. There ARE restrictions on multi-classing. Paladin must always be Lawful Good, Monk always Lawful ____, but EITHER path, if you choose to deviate from (i.e. level Paladin up to 5, and then level Rogue up 1), you may never go back. Period. No exceptions.

You were right about the exp penalties, and the alignment restrictions regarding leveling, though.

Roland The Gunslinger
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