George Lucas has holes in his head

George Lucas has holes in his head

Joined: November 29th, 2000, 9:05 pm

May 24th, 2002, 5:32 pm #1

A chat I had with Pete about Low Observable, Stealth, etc, just got me thinking about George Lucas and his whole thesis of The Force. Compared to his Twelve circles in his Shadow Moon books, the Willow story sequels, his whole presentation of The Dark Side and The Force is simply sub pulp crappy science fiction.
Here is why.

Consider The Force, which touches everything. Consider the ability of Darth, and others, to "sense a disturbance in the force." They are thus attuned to all Force energies. They sense them.

Consider Palpatine (who becomes the Emperor). He is a Sith Lord. He is strong in the force. Yet Yoda, who is allegedly extremely mighty in the force, is utterly unable to detect the fact that Palpatine is Jedi capable. ???? Wait a minute, all of those Jedi are unable to detect this goon right under their noses? These guys who are tied into the Force? And, I ask, how the heck did he get Jedi Training? From other Jedi, somewhere. So which Jedi forgot about him? Yoda has only been around 9000 years . . .

How then does this politician hide his Jedi-ness, his effusion with the little microbes that give us the force? How, I ask you?

Oh, wait, the Dark side can hide itself.

Really? How? Given that it is part of The Force

But if it can, "it" can be detected by what is absent. The act of cloaking gives off its own emissions. And if the avenue to The Force is the little microbes, if they are a catalyst, then he Cannot Hide That At All, since it is physical.

So, how is a Sith Lord developed. Well, first someone must find a young lad with Jedi potential. Then, one must harness his emotions to turn him to the dark side. But who knows how to do this other than Jedi?

This whole invisibility of the Dark Jedi is either poorly explained, or just plain bad sci fi.

The absense, or the presence of a use of the force to cover up the dark side would give away the Dark Jedi to one attuned to The Force.

The Force is a Farce, particularly the Dark Side.

Is this ever explained in any depth in the books?
Last edited by ilbrutto on May 24th, 2002, 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lissa
Lissa

May 24th, 2002, 6:03 pm #2

So why try to figure it out...
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Korror
Korror

May 24th, 2002, 7:23 pm #3

A chat I had with Pete about Low Observable, Stealth, etc, just got me thinking about George Lucas and his whole thesis of The Force. Compared to his Twelve circles in his Shadow Moon books, the Willow story sequels, his whole presentation of The Dark Side and The Force is simply sub pulp crappy science fiction.
Here is why.

Consider The Force, which touches everything. Consider the ability of Darth, and others, to "sense a disturbance in the force." They are thus attuned to all Force energies. They sense them.

Consider Palpatine (who becomes the Emperor). He is a Sith Lord. He is strong in the force. Yet Yoda, who is allegedly extremely mighty in the force, is utterly unable to detect the fact that Palpatine is Jedi capable. ???? Wait a minute, all of those Jedi are unable to detect this goon right under their noses? These guys who are tied into the Force? And, I ask, how the heck did he get Jedi Training? From other Jedi, somewhere. So which Jedi forgot about him? Yoda has only been around 9000 years . . .

How then does this politician hide his Jedi-ness, his effusion with the little microbes that give us the force? How, I ask you?

Oh, wait, the Dark side can hide itself.

Really? How? Given that it is part of The Force

But if it can, "it" can be detected by what is absent. The act of cloaking gives off its own emissions. And if the avenue to The Force is the little microbes, if they are a catalyst, then he Cannot Hide That At All, since it is physical.

So, how is a Sith Lord developed. Well, first someone must find a young lad with Jedi potential. Then, one must harness his emotions to turn him to the dark side. But who knows how to do this other than Jedi?

This whole invisibility of the Dark Jedi is either poorly explained, or just plain bad sci fi.

The absense, or the presence of a use of the force to cover up the dark side would give away the Dark Jedi to one attuned to The Force.

The Force is a Farce, particularly the Dark Side.

Is this ever explained in any depth in the books?
First off, Starwars is really a fantasy/scifi mix. The force does not fit in a pure scifi setting. It can not be explained (forget about Midrocolorians, those were a bad bad idea from Lucas)

The Jedi (and Sith) can sense when the force is USED not the potential to use the force. This is why Qui-gon needed to test Anikin, though he suspected that he was force-sensitive. They can also seem to sense life or death like Obi-wan sensed the destruction of Alderan. Vader sensed Obi-wan when Obi-wan used the force to sneak through the Deathstar. Jedi can’t sense other

Also in the time you're talking about, the Jedi have lost a great deal of their ability to sense the force. They are keeping this hidden from the Republic. There's a scene in AOTC devoted to this, where mace asks Yoda (who is only 900 years old) if they should reveal to the senate that their ability to feel the force has been reduced.

About the Sith, there is a difference between dark Jedi and Sith. The Sith are a special order of dark Jedi formed about 4000 before the movies. (The new starwars game, Knights of the Old Republic is set in this period.)

The problem with the dark jedi is that they don't like each other anymore then they like Jedi so they tended to kill each other off. The first Sith (Darth Bane) saw this, decided that there should be only two Sith at the same time. A master and an apprentice. Palpatine undoubtedly learned from his master, he never had anything to do with the Jedi.

This is all taken from the movies, no books were used in this explanation.

Korror



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Jester
Jester

May 24th, 2002, 8:23 pm #4

NT = Nice Tauntauns
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Joined: August 29th, 2001, 4:26 am

May 25th, 2002, 8:09 am #5

A chat I had with Pete about Low Observable, Stealth, etc, just got me thinking about George Lucas and his whole thesis of The Force. Compared to his Twelve circles in his Shadow Moon books, the Willow story sequels, his whole presentation of The Dark Side and The Force is simply sub pulp crappy science fiction.
Here is why.

Consider The Force, which touches everything. Consider the ability of Darth, and others, to "sense a disturbance in the force." They are thus attuned to all Force energies. They sense them.

Consider Palpatine (who becomes the Emperor). He is a Sith Lord. He is strong in the force. Yet Yoda, who is allegedly extremely mighty in the force, is utterly unable to detect the fact that Palpatine is Jedi capable. ???? Wait a minute, all of those Jedi are unable to detect this goon right under their noses? These guys who are tied into the Force? And, I ask, how the heck did he get Jedi Training? From other Jedi, somewhere. So which Jedi forgot about him? Yoda has only been around 9000 years . . .

How then does this politician hide his Jedi-ness, his effusion with the little microbes that give us the force? How, I ask you?

Oh, wait, the Dark side can hide itself.

Really? How? Given that it is part of The Force

But if it can, "it" can be detected by what is absent. The act of cloaking gives off its own emissions. And if the avenue to The Force is the little microbes, if they are a catalyst, then he Cannot Hide That At All, since it is physical.

So, how is a Sith Lord developed. Well, first someone must find a young lad with Jedi potential. Then, one must harness his emotions to turn him to the dark side. But who knows how to do this other than Jedi?

This whole invisibility of the Dark Jedi is either poorly explained, or just plain bad sci fi.

The absense, or the presence of a use of the force to cover up the dark side would give away the Dark Jedi to one attuned to The Force.

The Force is a Farce, particularly the Dark Side.

Is this ever explained in any depth in the books?
All science fiction is what I would call "pop-sci-fi" in comparison to the almighty Babylon 5.

And to those who would compare it to either star wars or star trek - have you ever watched more than two episodes?

EDIT: They were "optimising" the forum. Hmmmmmm. I guess it's better than the forum being down.
Last edited by smegged on May 25th, 2002, 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Occhi
Occhi

May 25th, 2002, 12:59 pm #6

First off, Starwars is really a fantasy/scifi mix. The force does not fit in a pure scifi setting. It can not be explained (forget about Midrocolorians, those were a bad bad idea from Lucas)

The Jedi (and Sith) can sense when the force is USED not the potential to use the force. This is why Qui-gon needed to test Anikin, though he suspected that he was force-sensitive. They can also seem to sense life or death like Obi-wan sensed the destruction of Alderan. Vader sensed Obi-wan when Obi-wan used the force to sneak through the Deathstar. Jedi can’t sense other

Also in the time you're talking about, the Jedi have lost a great deal of their ability to sense the force. They are keeping this hidden from the Republic. There's a scene in AOTC devoted to this, where mace asks Yoda (who is only 900 years old) if they should reveal to the senate that their ability to feel the force has been reduced.

About the Sith, there is a difference between dark Jedi and Sith. The Sith are a special order of dark Jedi formed about 4000 before the movies. (The new starwars game, Knights of the Old Republic is set in this period.)

The problem with the dark jedi is that they don't like each other anymore then they like Jedi so they tended to kill each other off. The first Sith (Darth Bane) saw this, decided that there should be only two Sith at the same time. A master and an apprentice. Palpatine undoubtedly learned from his master, he never had anything to do with the Jedi.

This is all taken from the movies, no books were used in this explanation.

Korror


Right, you sort of make my point for me. When the force is used, its use is detectable. The microbes cannot be dismissed. They explain how a sentient being becomes "force sensitive."

Yoda only 900? Hmmm, I thought that in Empire Strikes Back he was revealed to be about 9000. Could be an age thing.

Where does Dark Bane come into the movies? I remember the issue of there being matched pairs of Sith, from Episode one, but where does this 4000 years ago thing come from. The movies? Really? Does not compute.

Even so, given the clues presented in the films, the use of the force leaves a trail. And those who can detect it are Jedi. Thus, I have a hard time buying the "psychic invisibility" of the Sith. Given the nature of the Jedi order, it is really lame that they sit around gnashing their teeth and mumbling about the Sith rather than actively hunting them down. Particularly when they send a pair of Jedi to protect a jailbait senator . . . maybe the Jedi are guilty of hubris.

Nah, it just don't add up.
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Joined: August 29th, 2001, 4:26 am

May 25th, 2002, 1:16 pm #7

Hey, just have fun watching Star Wars. It doesn't have to make sense.

If you want a sci-fi to make sense, and to convey adult themes and do all sorts of other wonderful things, you should watch all 200 odd Babylon 5 episodes in order .
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Joined: March 5th, 2001, 7:01 pm

May 25th, 2002, 3:25 pm #8

A chat I had with Pete about Low Observable, Stealth, etc, just got me thinking about George Lucas and his whole thesis of The Force. Compared to his Twelve circles in his Shadow Moon books, the Willow story sequels, his whole presentation of The Dark Side and The Force is simply sub pulp crappy science fiction.
Here is why.

Consider The Force, which touches everything. Consider the ability of Darth, and others, to "sense a disturbance in the force." They are thus attuned to all Force energies. They sense them.

Consider Palpatine (who becomes the Emperor). He is a Sith Lord. He is strong in the force. Yet Yoda, who is allegedly extremely mighty in the force, is utterly unable to detect the fact that Palpatine is Jedi capable. ???? Wait a minute, all of those Jedi are unable to detect this goon right under their noses? These guys who are tied into the Force? And, I ask, how the heck did he get Jedi Training? From other Jedi, somewhere. So which Jedi forgot about him? Yoda has only been around 9000 years . . .

How then does this politician hide his Jedi-ness, his effusion with the little microbes that give us the force? How, I ask you?

Oh, wait, the Dark side can hide itself.

Really? How? Given that it is part of The Force

But if it can, "it" can be detected by what is absent. The act of cloaking gives off its own emissions. And if the avenue to The Force is the little microbes, if they are a catalyst, then he Cannot Hide That At All, since it is physical.

So, how is a Sith Lord developed. Well, first someone must find a young lad with Jedi potential. Then, one must harness his emotions to turn him to the dark side. But who knows how to do this other than Jedi?

This whole invisibility of the Dark Jedi is either poorly explained, or just plain bad sci fi.

The absense, or the presence of a use of the force to cover up the dark side would give away the Dark Jedi to one attuned to The Force.

The Force is a Farce, particularly the Dark Side.

Is this ever explained in any depth in the books?
Hi,

For many years, Isaac Asimov refused to write a new Foundation book because he didn't want to reread the existing three. He was an honest science fiction author. Robert Heinlein kept a big chart of the future history on his wall to stay consistant. He was an honest science fiction author. JRR Tolkien rewrote The Lord of the Rings to make it internally self consistant. He was an honest fantasy writer. Even EE Doc Smith's Lensman series was well crafted and consistant in spite of being blatent space opera. Doc, too, was an honest writer.

Those days have passed. Now even in main stream fiction all sorts of illogical crap is "accepted". And, of course, science fiction and fantasy, since they are seen as "weird" by most, need have no logic or consistancy at all.

I suspect that the gradual dumbing down of the educational process has a lot to do with it. When the audience is too ignorant to appreciate good writing and a third rate bit of fluff can make billions on fxs alone, why should anyone bother.

As for George Lucas -- I'm wondering just how many brain cells he's killed off in the past twenty or so years. From all evidence, all those cells that were responsible for talent.

--Pete
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Korror
Korror

May 25th, 2002, 5:03 pm #9

NT = Nice Tauntauns
NT = Nothing To do
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Joined: January 9th, 2001, 4:09 am

May 25th, 2002, 8:52 pm #10

A chat I had with Pete about Low Observable, Stealth, etc, just got me thinking about George Lucas and his whole thesis of The Force. Compared to his Twelve circles in his Shadow Moon books, the Willow story sequels, his whole presentation of The Dark Side and The Force is simply sub pulp crappy science fiction.
Here is why.

Consider The Force, which touches everything. Consider the ability of Darth, and others, to "sense a disturbance in the force." They are thus attuned to all Force energies. They sense them.

Consider Palpatine (who becomes the Emperor). He is a Sith Lord. He is strong in the force. Yet Yoda, who is allegedly extremely mighty in the force, is utterly unable to detect the fact that Palpatine is Jedi capable. ???? Wait a minute, all of those Jedi are unable to detect this goon right under their noses? These guys who are tied into the Force? And, I ask, how the heck did he get Jedi Training? From other Jedi, somewhere. So which Jedi forgot about him? Yoda has only been around 9000 years . . .

How then does this politician hide his Jedi-ness, his effusion with the little microbes that give us the force? How, I ask you?

Oh, wait, the Dark side can hide itself.

Really? How? Given that it is part of The Force

But if it can, "it" can be detected by what is absent. The act of cloaking gives off its own emissions. And if the avenue to The Force is the little microbes, if they are a catalyst, then he Cannot Hide That At All, since it is physical.

So, how is a Sith Lord developed. Well, first someone must find a young lad with Jedi potential. Then, one must harness his emotions to turn him to the dark side. But who knows how to do this other than Jedi?

This whole invisibility of the Dark Jedi is either poorly explained, or just plain bad sci fi.

The absense, or the presence of a use of the force to cover up the dark side would give away the Dark Jedi to one attuned to The Force.

The Force is a Farce, particularly the Dark Side.

Is this ever explained in any depth in the books?
Well, I’ve always hoped that Lucas was being a bit subtle, and that his message was that power corrupts, and that regardless of whether you think you are aligned with good or evil, at the point you start making decisions based on whim and unfounded opinion based in the belief that you are more important than others rather than on the net effect to all peoples, you are evil.

The alternative is to think that his idea of heroic fun is a genetically-determined master race that wields power by inherited right and thus is more important than the common citizens. We have already tried that once on this planet. Once is enough.

--Cy
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