Race in progress.

Race in progress.

Mangi Nating
Mangi Nating

August 19th, 2004, 10:51 pm #1

Hi all,

This issue has always bugged me, since I was first conscious of it as a child. Why is it that European or White nations are economically more successful than black nations in general? Why is it that we (Papua New Guinea in particular) are not able to become as successful as a White nation?

Has race got anything to do with progress? That is to say, is greater white progress a result of their superiority?

Wanem tingting bilong yupela?
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J
J

August 20th, 2004, 8:43 am #2

Hi,

It's not really superiority...it's not a racist or racial thing. My aunty went to Thailand and apparently they are so poor there and everything is so cheap. It seems they just don't have the 'common sense' there...they can't seem to reason and think properly. The same was said about my mates dad who lived in PNG for a long time, and he told me that the village people can only think for them selves to a certain extent-like they can't think past a certain point. They don't know what success means or how to get there. It's a few things I believe. It's money and how it is 'valued' in each country. Like the Kena in PNG is so low it's hardly worth anything...because it doesn't hold any value...whereas the Australian dollar is about 'average' then the American dollar is 2 x the value to one Australian dollar. And America is the most successful country...clicking on?? But then everything is more expensive there. Also in PNG the people are used and don't get payed well at all and the leaders take all your money inc the cops! The place is corrupt with no laws, well there are laws, it's just not many live by them...that's why it can't get up on it's feet. Strange isn't it? I think it's so good getting the Australians to come in and help because they're putting law back in place-the reason the png leaders didn't want Australians police or anything there is because they can get caught taking money that's not theirs. And the Oz Police force has power and law in it's hands, they're not corrupt and take your belongings and money like the png police do...i was talking to this one png guy and he believes that Australia is just helping PNG for their own good...not because they actually want to help...well, that's sad. That's the type of 'png mentality' some ppl have, not all, but some...they are too stubbourn and have a chip on their shoulder and make themselves blind...they can't see anything they don't want to see and only believe what they want to believe...that's the reason why the beautiful country can't move forward or progress because of ppl like that.
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1pis
1pis

August 22nd, 2004, 10:49 am #3

Get a hold of and read the book 'Guns, Germs and Steel' by Jarred Diamond, it explains a a lot.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

August 22nd, 2004, 10:52 am #4

Hi,

It's not really superiority...it's not a racist or racial thing. My aunty went to Thailand and apparently they are so poor there and everything is so cheap. It seems they just don't have the 'common sense' there...they can't seem to reason and think properly. The same was said about my mates dad who lived in PNG for a long time, and he told me that the village people can only think for them selves to a certain extent-like they can't think past a certain point. They don't know what success means or how to get there. It's a few things I believe. It's money and how it is 'valued' in each country. Like the Kena in PNG is so low it's hardly worth anything...because it doesn't hold any value...whereas the Australian dollar is about 'average' then the American dollar is 2 x the value to one Australian dollar. And America is the most successful country...clicking on?? But then everything is more expensive there. Also in PNG the people are used and don't get payed well at all and the leaders take all your money inc the cops! The place is corrupt with no laws, well there are laws, it's just not many live by them...that's why it can't get up on it's feet. Strange isn't it? I think it's so good getting the Australians to come in and help because they're putting law back in place-the reason the png leaders didn't want Australians police or anything there is because they can get caught taking money that's not theirs. And the Oz Police force has power and law in it's hands, they're not corrupt and take your belongings and money like the png police do...i was talking to this one png guy and he believes that Australia is just helping PNG for their own good...not because they actually want to help...well, that's sad. That's the type of 'png mentality' some ppl have, not all, but some...they are too stubbourn and have a chip on their shoulder and make themselves blind...they can't see anything they don't want to see and only believe what they want to believe...that's the reason why the beautiful country can't move forward or progress because of ppl like that.
"But then everything is more expensive there."That isnt always the case.It depends what State you live.The larger the State the higher the wages and expenses to live.
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Mum
Mum

August 23rd, 2004, 3:11 am #5

Hi all,

This issue has always bugged me, since I was first conscious of it as a child. Why is it that European or White nations are economically more successful than black nations in general? Why is it that we (Papua New Guinea in particular) are not able to become as successful as a White nation?

Has race got anything to do with progress? That is to say, is greater white progress a result of their superiority?

Wanem tingting bilong yupela?
The "European or White nations" that you refer to, as opposed to "black nations in general". (I note your use of capital letters for the former; as opposed to lower case letters fot the latter)

I lay no claim to being an expert by any means; so these are my thoughts only.

This is general (it doesn't include those babes born with a disability - mental, physical or clinical (such as Aids). We are all born as equals; we have similar intelligence, similar physique and similar potential. What sets us apart from birth is the environment to which we are introduced to the world.

Generally; if you are born to a rich family, you will live and die rich: if you are born to a poor family, you will live and die poor: and the list can go on - a stupid family, an abusive family, a family with positive attitude, a family who loves horses, a family who hates "white/black" people, a family who loves art, a family who hates snakes, a family that is scared of the dark, a family that swears, a family that loves sport........anything you can think of.

A small; but very significant; percentage are able to "break the mould" and make a change in their lives - behave or think in a manner outside their personal heritage.

Some Nations have had a really big "head-start" when it comes to economics and material wealth - they've been at it for centuries. Some Nations have remained with their Cultural Wealth because they were not exposed to any other "world" until recently.

One is no better than the other; just different. Same applies to men/women.

The environment you are born into and the influences you are exposed to, seem to set the pattern.

PNG has been thrust into a global world that it had no contact with until recent times (globally speaking - 100 odd years). Other nations have been participating within the global community for thousands of years - of course they are better equipped to "play the game". It does not come down to a superior race; it comes down to "experience" within the given arena.

Superiority comes with experience, practice and attitude.
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hawk~eye
hawk~eye

August 23rd, 2004, 5:24 am #6

Mum, you are on the spot!

<~)
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Exile
Exile

August 24th, 2004, 2:07 am #7

Hi all,

This issue has always bugged me, since I was first conscious of it as a child. Why is it that European or White nations are economically more successful than black nations in general? Why is it that we (Papua New Guinea in particular) are not able to become as successful as a White nation?

Has race got anything to do with progress? That is to say, is greater white progress a result of their superiority?

Wanem tingting bilong yupela?
Hi Mangi Nating,
Mi ken ya…and I sincerely hope yu’re all not tired of my rantings yet.

I think it depends a lot on how one defines economic successes and progress, and whether within the context of culture (kastom pasin) and environment (ples yumi stap long en), or global.
If one defines it (success and progress) from the context of western thoughts, paradigms and practices, then maybe yes. But I think it is not due to due to any actual superman gene in the human characteristics. ( …all men are created equal…. ) The superiority complexes is probably something the lighter skinned tribes believe in, it seems religiously. Kain olsem lotu pasin blo ol. I think it is only some belief system, maybe from their stories and legends, within the context of their culture and environment, which they have convinced themselves of over the course of time, and synthesized into their psyche and education systems.

They used to be tribal people, but maybe the environment they sprang from could not sustain them for so many reasons, hence their need for survival dictated that they increase their land boundaries, hence invasions of nearby places and subjugations of tribes therein. Industry (science and technology) was no longer limited to enhancing the harmony within their environmental boundaries, but evolved, for the need for a more effective spear and shield to undertake these conquests, after they met with some setbacks. Human virtues of kindness, consideration, respect for other tribes et al were dispensed off because these were realized to be stumbling blocks to their survival.
Maybe ‘the law of the jungle’ is validated here?

The indicators spell a sorry picture for those tribes content on living within their boundaries, in harmony with their environments.
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Mangi Nating
Mangi Nating

August 25th, 2004, 9:38 pm #8

Hi all,

This issue has always bugged me, since I was first conscious of it as a child. Why is it that European or White nations are economically more successful than black nations in general? Why is it that we (Papua New Guinea in particular) are not able to become as successful as a White nation?

Has race got anything to do with progress? That is to say, is greater white progress a result of their superiority?

Wanem tingting bilong yupela?
Hi all.

J, from your post it appears that you must be fairly young, my guess is a teenager, so I don't think it is necessary to go into detail about some of the things you said in your post.

Things like:
It seems they just don't have the 'common sense' there...they can't seem to reason and think properly.

and...

village people can only think for them selves to a certain extent-like they can't think past a certain point. They don't know what success means or how to get there.

and
it's so good getting the Australians to come in and help because they're putting law back in place

and
Oz Police force has power and law in it's hands, they're not corrupt and take your belongings and money like the png police do

And after reading your straightforward piece(unlike the more subtle hints thrown out by others) I figured that you must be very young, but then this is the Internet so it could be someone much older assuming a different persona to present their views bluntly and to make it seem as if a younger person wrote it. But enough with this guesswork.

You did make some interesting points however about how money is valued more (supposedly we throw money away because we value it less) and how the White Knights (the Australian police so well-loved in Redfern & other minority areas) will come to our rescue because they have power and law in their hands. I apologize if you are actually young, and please do not take offence at my comments, it's good to hear what you think.

1pis, Bro I have heard about the book you mentioned and read the reviews on Amazon.com and a couple of blogs and some of the reviews aren't flattering. Many say it is just a politically-correct publication and fails to address many issues. What do you think about it, did it make a good case?

Mum, you obviously read too much into things. Did the thought typo ever enter your consciousness when you saw that Black was not capitalized?

Interesting theory though, and this is basically what it really boils down to - genetics and environment, except of course that you completely neglect the power of those innate abilities within us. Environment is important but it is not the only force that determines what a person will become. And as to ascribing such an important place to the family, it is true that a family can influence a person's outlook on life, but you will find that many people do not think like their parents and it is a result of education or some other factors which are increasingly becoming more of an influence than the family.

Of course when I asked this question I did not believe at all in the superiority of a race, that is just a crutch that rejects of a race use so that they feel that they are better than someone. Notice how many of these white supremacists have never achieved anything of note in their lives?

Exile,

It would be difficult to get tired of anyone's ranting here on PNGscape since there is a great lack of 'ranting'. I like it when people write long pieces because it means they have taken time to think about and actually write out what they think, so keep those 'rants' coming.

As you and Mum point out it depends on how you define success, and I was thinking of it in the material sense, such as the advances in Science, GDP per capita (as a measure) health etc... those things commonly used as indicators of a nation's wellbeing or progress.

Exile you also mentioned that it was something of a myth that they have allowed to seep into their psyche, and I forget the book right now, but someone mentioned that Social Darwinism, a result of the belief in Darwinism strengthened some of these feelings of superiority. It is no suprise that anyone who thinks that animals actually progress from a simple to complex state will believe that they are the end of the line.

The indicators spell a sorry picture for those tribes content on living within their boundaries, in harmony with their environments.

Momokani, and so sad too. The only people that succeeded where the ruthless barbarians whereas the peace and nature loving peoples were wiped out.

So from our short exchanges so far, it seems that most of us believe that it is the environment that dictates progress. I hope we can examine this issue even more closely.

By the way, some of you might be interested to read some of the thoughts of these supremacists. Check out this site: http://www.stormfront.org
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Ralph Hamilton
Ralph Hamilton

August 28th, 2004, 5:13 pm #9

Hi MN,
I read your comment on another forum.

" You can always tell where these white people stand, regardless of ho lng they have been in PNG."

I can't believe you said that. I would have thought that your Christian values, would have precluded your being so judgemental of your fellow man. The reason I did not reply earlier, is that I wanted to contemplate your remark, and not reply in anger myself.

It is my assumption yhat you wrote that in anger, over something a whiteman had done to you. In the words of Hemingway's character Robert Jordan, (For Whom The Bell Tolls), when critisizing the Spanish. Allow your rage to soar, until you no longer believe what you are saying, yourself. That is the quickest way to get over it. I assume you were doing this.

Does this mean, that as a whiteman I am inherently duplicitious. Or perhaps, as I am a brown-skinned whiteman, I am more trustworthy. Whilst I find this flattering, I entirely reject the notion.

One of the problems of PNG is the national tendency to blame others for your problems. This national duality is almost schizophrenic. It is nonsense to say that your present day problems, are the result of the Colonial Administration. Good God! That was nearly thirty years ago. Different to the Australian Aboriginal people, you have had independence for all that time.

You talk about, "Loss of Sovereignity", if you accept the ECP. Well - just say NO. Yet many of your young people, are embracing the prevailing Reggae and Rap culture, with scant regard for your traditional culture. This is being lost in the "USAation", of the English speaking world. You are in greater danger of losing your traditions. This would be a greater loss, than any loss of sovereignity that you fear. Without your own culture, what does sovereignity count for?

There are many white people who wish your country well. My good friend Tjampita stil does his bit. I will too when I sell this business of mine, and am free at last. I, like many, will not require payment for this. I am rather pleased to be considered so versatile, that my motives will still be suspect. (You speak with forked tongue, white-eye.) Hehe.

Of course it is in Australia's interest, to have a stable, christian, democratic nation, next door to us. Excepting NZ, that is. It may be xenophobic of me, but I do not think the two Muslim nations to the east and west of PNG, wish Australia well. However, my judgement is based on the comments of their politicians, as reported in our daily press. As I do not know any Malasians or Indonesians personally, I suspend my judgement on that one.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." (Voltaire again. Who else?)

The white devil strikes again......Ralph.
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Mangi Nating
Mangi Nating

August 29th, 2004, 11:38 am #10

Hi Ralph & Everyone else.

I hope all is well.

I would have thought that your Christian values, would have precluded your being so judgemental of your fellow man.

Being a Christian does not preclude you from having an opinion or speaking out against what you think is wrong.
You should go back and read (if you have not already done so) what she said, and I can't believe that you don't see anything wrong with it. If you read between the lines what she is basically saying is Papua New Guineans should just shut up and let these Australians help them out because they know best. Now isn't that racism? Don't we have a right to know what the ECP means to us? According to her and her ilk, No, since we aren't paying for it.

It is my assumption yhat you wrote that in anger, over something a whiteman had done to you.

No, it isn't a personal matter. This is not a grudge I am carrying against a white person somewhere in my past - so let's forget all the Freudian psychobabble that is so prevalent today - I am speaking out against what I perceive to be an injustice upon my people. And as for my comments, you can tell where most of these white people stand Have you been in the company of your fellow Australians who came over to PNG and have not spoken of it in glowing terms? You only need to scroll up to see what J's uncle said about PNG, and this is not uncommon. I have had to face some ignorant people whose idea of PNG was shaped by some friend or relative who came over to PNG and went back and told tall tales.

One of the problems of PNG is the national tendency to blame others for your problems. This national duality is almost schizophrenic. It is nonsense to say that your present day problems, are the result of the Colonial Administration. Good God! That was nearly thirty years ago

For all my time in PNG I have never heard anyone say that our problems are the result of the colonial administration. Most PNGeans think that the colonial adminstration was the golden age of PNG, and some wish to return to it. I don't know where you are getting this from.

As for me, I'm glad we have our independence, although it is only nominal. What we need now is to get our economic independence from Australia, and our people also need to be mentally free from the chains that were put on their minds during the colonial administration. Masta is still a word in the Pidgin language, and I'm hopeful it will die out, and so is Taubada in Motu, these are only two examples.

Yes the Americanization of the world (notice how it is evident even in the spelling?) is a problem that the whole world faces (not just the French). You must understand that Reggae music is Black music primarily and not limited to the Americas. (In fact it is Caribbean NOT American in origin). Even throughout Africa, reggae music is popular and a popular artist that I know about from South Africa is Lucky Dube. These artists have more in common with the PNG everyday struggle to survive than say Slim Dusty, Pavarotti or Savage Garden, so I don't see them as invading our culture. PNG artists have skilfully woven reggae music into our own music. As for Rap music (and I notice you didn't mention the country music or heavy metal that is popular with so many Papua New Guineans) again it is Black music that has been perverted now by artists like Eminem... admittedly much of Rap nowadays is trash and I hope that the youth in PNG tire of it quickly because at the moment there is nothing positive in it. The lifestyles it glorifies are self-destructive and in opposition to Christian and sensible values.

Without your own culture, what does sovereignity count for?

What culture does Australia have other than a manufactured one? Yet I do not think you would argue that sovereignity is unimportant, if it is unimportant, let the Indonesians dictate your policies for you.


There are many white people who wish your country well.

There are alot of Papua New Guineans that wish your country well in return. I know there are sincere white people and we need more of these people but then there are those who may "smile and smile and be a villain".
Problem is, it's hard to tell who is who?

I do not think the two Muslim nations to the east and west of PNG, wish Australia well.

Why not? Because of a few things Mahatir said? By the same token why should PNG trust Australia when your PM is a racist?

Finally
Well - just say NO.

We should if we could but we can't. PNG is a beggar nation, and we need the money. However because PNG eats the crumbs from Australia's table does not make PNG Australia's slave. There should be mutual respect and the AID should be genuine, not sending Australian 'experts' when there are many such PNGean ones who could be hired to do the same job and do equally well and at less cost too. I also hope this crime fighting force that they are sending is temporary relief, the real problem is the lack of employment opportunities in PNG. If they want to really help, open the borders and let PNGn labor work in Australian farms and repatriate the salaries back home (strengthening our Kina), and a host of other things I would like to mention, but I have written enough for a week's reading.

Adios.

PS: When did I ever use the word "White devil" ? I only know of one devil.

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